Champion Units

[Prodigal Son]

I've come across some ideas while testing the game and this thread inspired me to come up with some suggestions:

• I believe the Seleucids should get another spearcavalry (could be Thessalian/Macedonian Settlers/Xystophoroi, Galatians or Median/Persian Lancers) with the Companions being made into a champion like the Macedonian one. Antiochus III's Companions (and I guess Seleucid ones in general) where quite devastating. Even in defeats like Raphia and Magnesia they routed their opposing enemy flank (at Magnesia actually being a Roman legion, not cavalry or light troops). If there's an issue with Cataphracts being a Champion spearcavalry as well, the Cataphracts could be made into a tech upgrade of the Companions with increased armor and reduced speed (Though both units coexisted even after the introduction of Cataphracts).
• If the above brings an issue of too many champions for them (see bellow as well) the Scythed Chariots can become normal units, they were quite outdated and ineffective anyway. Models could be the persian ones with armored riders or just one of them working as skirites and other one-rank citizen soldiers. A simular downgrading could work for the Maurayan Chariots as well. Edit: How about all chariots as one rank non champion units that can't gather? Makes the most sense to me.
• The Seleucids could get the Maurayan bonus of many champion units, since it fits them well with so many different units and subjects and the Maurayans could get something else. Or both could share it (or see bellow).
• I'm not too fond of Ptolemaics having only native phalanx, since its use was limited compared to Greek/Macedonian one. Seleucids as well could have the Silver Shield Pikemen as a champion and a regular phalanx as spear infantry. Same with Macedonians and a pezaitaros/bronze shield phalanx and an Agema one. Having 2 x pike units for those factions could be an overkill from a gameplay perspective though.

Now to the major idea:

Champion units in general could be somewhat redesigned. Like some of them requiring reform techs (that would replace another champion when applicable):

• Spartan Pikemen (Cleomenian Reforms) - Add them or replace Spartan Hoplites with them
• Seleucid Cataphract Reforms - Add them or replace Companion Cavalry with them
• Seleucid/Ptolemaic Thorakites/Infantry Romanisation Reforms
• Macedonian Late Pikemen (Perseus Reforms) with heavier armor. This could also be a paired tech with a cavalry tech or contain a cavalry debuff to reflect the increasing focus on phalanx and the decline of cavalry in late Antigonid Macedonia.
• Macedonian Royal Peltasts
• Persian War Elephants, Horse Archers and Kardakes/Mercenery Hoplites (as core game units)
• Carthaginian Sacred Band Cavalry (as core game unit)
• Athenian Iphicratian Hoplites/Peltasts
• Mauryan Elephant Archer turned into champion (as any elephant unit should imo)
• Cretan Archers/Rhodian Slingers could also be champion mercenaries replaced by some generic levy versions as citizens.

There's more I can't think of now I guess. Even Marian Reforms could work this way if you deside to implement them.

It would work sweetly with having more famous/fancy champion units without breaking the game balance since the reform/research techs could be priced accordingly.

Edit:

It could work like, each civ has 2 champion units by default (or more for factions having some civ bonus on this).

Those would be the most commonly used or better gameplay serving ones, mixing best with the rest of each civs unit line up.

Then with reform techs new ones would replace some of the default champion units (or even some citizen-soldiers in some cases for a bigger cost). Other techs would unlock extra champion units for some civs instead of replacing old ones, when it fits historical accuracy or gameplay. This should generally cost more than reform techs as it would broaden the available unit rooster.

The number of extra units granted this way and the cost of the reform/unlock techs could besides following historical accuracy depend on late game faction strength. So say the Gauls prove weaker in late game, they could have cheaper reform/unlock techs or more extra champions than other factions.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Prodigal Son

[Mega Mania]

Achaemenid Persian never used war elephants until the Battle of Gaugamela but it didn't win the battle for the Persians thus making it a white elephant although they are useful in 0 AD, and horse archery wasn't that popular in Persia before Parthian Empire.

[Prodigal Son]

Achaemenid Persian never used war elephants until the Battle of Gaugamela but it didn't win the battle for the Persians thus making it a white elephant although they are useful in 0 AD, and horse archery wasn't that popular in Persia before Parthian Empire.

About elephants, I've read that there are claims they were used in other campaigns as well but some doubt it. Anyway I'm not suggesting to have them as a main champion unit, but as a tech-unlocked one if this idea gets accepted.

About horse archers, sure they were not used as much as by parthians or steppe nomads but they certainly had them. Both in as local troops and as nearby/vassal nomads that they often used in battles. So I believe they could be an unlockable unit as well.

I still might be wrong with this or other of my points, I just like this idea a lot and would love to see it in game. Some of those units were core army parts for their factions for sure anyway.

Edit (thought of how it could work in more detail, added to the bottom of the OP as well):

It could work like, each civ has 2 champion units by default (or more for factions having some civ bonus on this).

Those would be the most commonly used or better gameplay serving ones, mixing best with the rest of each civs unit line up.

Then with reform techs new ones would replace some of the default champion units (or even some citizen-soldiers in some cases for a bigger cost). Other techs would unlock extra champion units for some civs instead of replacing old ones, when it fits historical accuracy or gameplay. This should generally cost more than reform techs as it would broaden the available unit rooster.

The number of extra units granted this way and the cost of the reform/unlock techs could besides following historical accuracy depend on late game faction strenght. So say the Gauls prove weaker in late game, they could have cheaper reform/unlock techs or more extra champions than other factions.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Prodigal Son

[Mega Mania]

How about imposing quota on certain champion unit? So that we could solve the problem of having too much champion unit.

[Prodigal Son]

How about imposing quota on certain champion unit? So that we could solve the problem of having too much champion unit.

I think that's against the general direction the game has gone so far. If it turns out to be used, I've got several extra ideas that could enhance it.

[Nolanjoker]

And if introduces 3 or 4 elite units but you can only unlocks 2 of theses, with pair technology , with a special buildings like Carthage with embassies?

[Prodigal Son]

Could do as a simplified version, but I like my proposal more as both balancable and reflecting historical roosters and changes in them.

[Loki1950]

In the current svn only One Hero Unit may be active at any time so classifying elephants as such is not viable.As most civs that used them used lots at once as a single elephant is just meat in any battle.

Enjoy the Choice

[Prodigal Son]

In the current svn only One Hero Unit may be active at any time so classifying elephants as such is not viable.As most civs that used them used lots at once as a single elephant is just meat in any battle.

Enjoy the Choice

Talking about champion units, not heroes here:)

[Prodigal Son]

Any thoughts from the team on if this is feasible?