Parthians (or Arsacids) and Sasanians

[Mega Mania]

Did Sassanids use war elephants?

Yes, during the reign of Shapur II when they invade Roman Mesopotamia and the defense of Asoristan (Iraq).

For more information please visit: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28587/28587-h/28587-h.htm or http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/elephant-ii-sasanian-army.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

excuse if i am trolling, but, what happens if the "hycarian hillmen" tries to attack other buildings?, houses, barracks, stone walls, civ centres, fortresses, special buildings, and wonders?, we mantain the bonus??????, and i have a n idea for repair the "health & armoun trouble", reduce the cost for put this units very cheap and replaceable!

Historically Hyrcania was among the first occupied by the Parthians, IMO since Parthian army are clan dominated and posses no knowledge in siege craft for infantry like the Hyrcanians their task was simple to raid and devastate enemy territory so it would a little bit difficult for them to destroy wonders, civic center and fortress who have more armor and HP. To give player an advantage, Hyrcanians are extremely cheap and with a lower training time (since they are numerous) which any player could raise an army of these warlike mountaineers in a short time with less resources.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

Perhaps you could have both Parthians and Sassanids in the game for part II without much extra work and making sense (like the Greek and Celtic factions):

- Simular buildings and many common units, since they mostly had the same territory.

- They briefly fought against each other during the part II timeframe

- Sassinids should have a some heavy infantry power plus more elephant and mostly catafract focus

- Parthians should have only weak infantry, good catafracts, (maybe) no elephants and more of a horse archer focus.

Parthian timeframe is almost equally split between the two game parts so they could also fit for part I. They could also be considered for having some of the nomad faction mechanics since they started as nomads before occupying a revolted seleucid satrapy.

Not quite similar, Parthians may look like Sassanid Persia but they are different especially national mobilization: Parthian mobilize their own clansmen and their clients or sometimes tribal levies while Sassanids prefer to mobilized every subject from the four corners of Eransahr. Be it a warrior (cavalry), vassals (foreign nations subdued by the Sassanids), "commoners" (infantry) and mercenaries (foreign fighters like Gilan and Daylam).

Sassanid have mastered siege craft and they have the ability to build siege equipment and they have a better logistics that allows them to mount long term military campaign.

That's why i make a thread with the name of Parthia and Sassanid.

Sassanid overthrow the Parthians but in the initial years the Sassanids or more precisely the Kingdom of Parsis was a vassal serving the Parthian Overlords.

Some Sassanid heavy infantry like the Daylami warrior didn't exist until the reign of Kosrow I and the Daylami Guards emerged during the reign of Kosrow II after Bahram Chobin's rebellion and Bestam's uprising.

Early Sassanid do not use war elephants in battle because Zoroastrians believed elephants are evil and repugnant. Until Shapur II mounts a huge campaign to reclaim lands lost to the Romans.

Parthian infantry are weak, which is why you have less options and their HP and other attributes will never be as strong as the Romans or any other factions.

Yes, Parthians are nomads and they do need a nomadic mechanics.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

Units from IB: Somnium Apostatea Iuliani:

1. Sassanid Clibanarii

2. Sassanid Infantry with heavy armor

3. Sassanid dismounted cavalry

4. Saka cavalry

5. Gilani Infantry

6. Royal Household Archer

Plus with some elite units owned by the King:

1. Sassanid Household Cavalry

2. The King's Life Guards

Plus war elephants:

Edited November 5, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

The first post represent the Sassanids objective to create a standing army where the cavalry served as the core of the elite fighting force, while infantry served as auxiliaries for the cavalry.

Second post shows that due to massive national mobilization, proper battle gear, mercenaries and war elephants begin to appear.

[Prodigal Son]

I've actually found a reference (War Elephants, By John M. Kistler) to 20 Pathian War Elephants being used against the Seleucids in 130bc, so maybe they could have them as well.

[Mega Mania]

Evidence?

If the Parthians did deploy war elephants against the Seleucids, why don't deploy against the Romans?

[Prodigal Son]

I can't speak of evidence, just a part of a book I found online. But, your argument doesn't mean much. Lack of availability and military reforms happened all the time. Epirus had war elephants only for a couple decades or so, yet they ended up as it's more iconic unit because the campaigns they were used in were well documented. If that Parthian campaign was as well documented, no doubt we'd be speaking a lot about parthian war elephants nowadays (provided that all this isn't made up or mistake by the author, which I doubt but can't be sure).

[Mega Mania]

Unfortunately, the Parthians never consider war elephant as the instrument of war because:

1. the cost to maintain an elephant corps was unbearable due to the Parthian poor financial management.

2. Logistics too proved to be a daunting task for the Parthians to maintain an elephant army since the Parthians was bad on logistics.

3. Speed was important for the Parthian army and war elephant didn't have speed thus making them useless on the battlefield.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

(provided that all this isn't made up or mistake by the author, which I doubt but can't be sure).

In fact the a review from Amazon doubt the accuracy of the author's so called "facts" and "informations".

http://www.amazon.com/War-Elephants-John-M-Kistler/dp/0803260040

[Prodigal Son]

Unfortunately, the Parthians never consider war elephant as the instrument of war because:

1. the cost to maintain an elephant corps was unbearable due to the Parthian poor financial management.

2. Logistics too proved to be a daunting task for the Parthians to maintain an elephant army since the Parthians was bad on logistics.

3. Speed was important for the Parthian army and war elephant didn't have speed thus making them useless on the battlefield.

In fact the a review from Amazon doubt the accuracy of the author's so called "facts" and "informations".

http://www.amazon.com/War-Elephants-John-M-Kistler/dp/0803260040

I wouldn't be so sure. Many sources we have are weak and many others are lost. I'm in noway claiming that they certainly used them, but since some sources say they were used for display of power and others that they were actually used in combat, it could be true and even be more common than that. You seem a little overly eager to act like an absolute expert on this which you don't seem to be (unless the language barrier doesn't let me see it someway). Also (3), that would prevent them from using infantry as well since it's slower than elephants (I know they mostly focused on cavalry, don't get me wrong). And a mixed review doesn't always mean much.

Anyway we're just making suggestions for a (possible) future addon, and the team will deside. And you probably know more on Parthians than me, I'm just saying don't eagerly take something for granted cause it seems this way, especially when there are some serious doubts.

Edit: I think the most valid point for including them, even if the sources don't prove common or even certain use, is gameplay. The Parthians will lack troop variety compared to most other factions.

Edit 2: The Europa Barbarorum team on RTW modding, known for their insanely good research, give the Parthians Elephants.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Prodigal Son

[Mega Mania]

I wouldn't be so sure. Many sources we have are weak and many others are lost. I'm in noway claiming that they certainly used them, but since some sources say they were used for display of power and others that they were actually used in combat, it could be true and even be more common than that. You seem a little overly eager to act like an absolute expert on this which you don't seem to be (unless the language barrier doesn't let me see it someway). Also (3), that would prevent them from using infantry as well since it's slower than elephants (I know they mostly focused on cavalry, don't get me wrong). And a mixed review doesn't always mean much.

Anyway we're just making suggestions for a (possible) future addon, and the team will deside. And you probably know more on Parthians than me, I'm just saying don't eagerly take something for granted cause it seems this way, especially when there are some serious doubts.

Edit: I think the most valid point for including them, even if the sources don't prove common or even certain use, is gameplay. The Parthians will lack troop variety compared to most other factions.

Edit 2: The Europa Barbarorum team on RTW modding, known for their insanely good research, give the Parthians Elephants.

Parthian infantry served as camp follower and guards during a military campaign, while in peace time they served as gendarmes to protect towns and cities from infiltration, raids and possibly invasion but not field battle.

If you cannot confirmed it then don't add it. AFAIK scholars have a good grasp on the Sassanid elephant tactics and its purpose but if Parthian have elephant corps then they would develop a certain kind of tactics and strategem against the Romans or other neighboring tribes and empires. If the Parthians have raised an elephant corps and use it against the Romans, the Romans will certainly know its existence and develop new tactics against these fearsome beasts.

Which is why the Romans could exploit the Parthian's weakness because Parthian lacks a wide variety of troops.

Unless you have conquered Pakistan in EB campaign map or custom battle, but mostly they cannot confirmed whether the Parthian have an elephant corps in Mesopotamia or not so the Parthians in EB cannot recruit war elephants in Mesopotamia and Syria.

Maybe you could propose a new mini faction: Indo Parthians, where you could add war elephant in the Indo Parthian army.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

I found a new Dhow model that could become a Sassanid warship:

After conducting some research, i have found that it is impossible for Sambuk to be converted into warship so i've been actively searching for a new information regarding dhow used in naval conflict and i stumbled on this model dhow.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

Here's an article about Sassanid war elephant: the-rise-of-the-sassanian-elephant-corps.pdf

Hope you guys like it.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

The Sassanid army have allies but not all of them are permanent.

Arab Kingdom like the Lakhmids was a staunch ally for the Sassanid Empire until the reign of Kosrow II.

Others : Chionites, Hephthalites, Armenians and Turks, sometimes friendly but sometimes hostile due to the Empire's diplomatic policy.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Mega Mania

[newcivs]

Unfortunately, the Parthians never consider war elephant as the instrument of war because:

1. the cost to maintain an elephant corps was unbearable due to the Parthian poor financial management.

2. Logistics too proved to be a daunting task for the Parthians to maintain an elephant army since the Parthians was bad on logistics.

3. Speed was important for the Parthian army and war elephant didn't have speed thus making them useless on the battlefield.

you should add is: Is hard trins useful war elephants, in fact in de "fail of zama" carthage loses the battle "even using the towered elephants" because the elephants used was teen and with weak trainig

[newcivs]

Did Sassanids use war elephants?

the evidence is too soft, even weaker than the persian elephants!, only used duriig the battle aganist alexande the great!

and the towered elephants of carthage, with a strong evidence in the battle of zama, very late to be useful aganist rome

i tthink, that we can deny access to elephants during a time, or create as hidden unit

hidden unit means that is only accesible by editor

[newcivs]

The first post represent the Sassanids objective to create a standing army where the cavalry served as the core of the elite fighting force, while infantry served as auxiliaries for the cavalry.

Second post shows that due to massive national mobilization, proper battle gear, mercenaries and war elephants begin to appear.

are you saying that the partians was a power, only bt the calvary, and the "aura" was the "guerrilla war" as to the ibean hero viriatus??

[Mega Mania]

the evidence is too soft, even weaker than the persian elephants!, only used duriig the battle aganist alexande the great!

and the towered elephants of carthage, with a strong evidence in the battle of zama, very late to be useful aganist rome

i tthink, that we can deny access to elephants during a time, or create as hidden unit

hidden unit means that is only accesible by editor

Please visit: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/ammian/home.html or http://www.armenica.org/history/en/overview/avarayr.html.

The Roman and Armenian authors could proved that Sassanid have war elephant.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

An article about Parthian Army: http://www.academia.edu/2523094/Was_there_no_paid_standing_army_A_fresh_look_on_military_and_political_institutions_in_the_Arsacid_Empire.

[Mega Mania]

are you saying that the partians was a power, only bt the calvary, and the "aura" was the "guerrilla war" as to the ibean hero viriatus??

No, but the Parthians prefer to use cavalry as the instrument of offense instead of infantry, unless the enemy have threatened the very existence of the Empire itself or else these infantry will always be camp followers, urban or fortress garrison that keep the border safe from the Romans or the nomads from the steppe.

If you wish to know more about Parthian army and its recruitment procedure, you may visit: http://www.academia.edu/2523094/Was_there_no_paid_standing_army_A_fresh_look_on_military_and_political_institutions_in_the_Arsacid_Empire.

Or if you need more accurate information about the Parthian army and its successor, you may look for this: http://www.amazon.com/Immortal-Military-History-Armed-Forces/dp/1589012585/ref=pd_rhf_se_p_d_1, although it have a few chapter about Parthian Empire and its successor the Sassanids but it have simple but accurate information about its armed forces.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Mega Mania]

Cataphractus and kamandar.pdf

It's about cataphracts, horse archers and its origin, hopefully this may help.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Mega Mania

[newcivs]

persia strong infantry!!!!

Oh yeah this factions are pretty

[newcivs]

A useful website about Roman-Persian conflict: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ammian/

And some bonus pictures:

i am don't trolling, but:

Roman Phalanx vs Towered elephants "ancient carthaginian nuke" + Cataphracts "Citizen ranged, and melee champions" is pretty

[newcivs]

Units from IB: Somnium Apostatea Iuliani:

Sassanid army.png

1. Sassanid Clibanarii

2. Sassanid Infantry with heavy armor

3. Sassanid dismounted cavalry

4. Saka cavalry

5. Gilani Infantry

6. Royal Household Archer

Plus with some elite units owned by the King:

Sassanid guards.png

1. Sassanid Household Cavalry

2. The King's Life Guards

Plus war elephants:

Elephants from India.png

Hinduya Pila, but with a tower???????