Working on stuff for Alpha 14.

[idanwin]

I like the berry bushes idea (also for apple trees etc?). Maybe something 'seasonal' the bush stays 'empty' for a while, then suddenly regenerates berries. You should also be able to chop down bushes (which gives wood) to make building space.

I like farmland bonuses. But how would you visualize this? I would suggest that farms can only be build within a x range of a farmstead. And (to distance farms from the cc) only allow farmsteads outside a y range of your cc.

Having food/grain differences is too confusing for new players.

Having farmland bonuses would also allow for fertile land along rivers and around oasises, which would increase realism enormously! Maybe we could even implement bad soil to place in deserts/rocks/frost which decreases farm efficiency. When building a farm, the efficiency could be displayed as a percentage (100% at farmland, 75% elsewhere and 50% in bad soil, or something along those lines). An example of such resource gathering can be seen in spring. When you place that resource building you see the efficiency percentage.

These percentages could be done, either with aura entities or with a percentage map.

To balance the gathering of metal/rock could be increases in poor soil, which is also quite realistic.

I see a lot of potential for this idea and I'm already dreaming of fighting over fertile valleys!

[Lion.Kanzen]

in some mps, like Anatolian Plateu, are missing some resources., may be berry bushes, i that map i dont know how can work this, and Tiny Inland the samething.

and why no, be like Empie earth, you build Farmstead with some Farms included.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[idanwin]

and why no, be like Empie earth, you build Farmstead with some Farms included.

baaad idea. I hated that.

[Lion.Kanzen]

baaad idea. I hated that.

XD why?

[idanwin]

I'm a designer at heart, I want to place farms where I think they would fit :-)

I could live with a button in the farmstead that says: 'plant farms' and if you click that it will automatically build farms around it, but if you don't you can build farms around it yourself. Maybe that could satisfy the people who don't want too much micromanagement and the people who want to design beautiful cities.

Edited April 3, 2013 by idanwin

[Shield Bearer]

I'm a designer at heart, I want to place farms where I think they would fit :-)

I could live with a button in the farmstead that says: 'plant farms' and if you click that it will automatically build farms around it, but if you don't you can build farms around it yourself. Maybe that could satisfy the people who don't want too much micromanagement and the people who want to design beautiful cities.

My mind exactly

[Mythos_Ruler]

I have another Idea:

If the farms are going to be infinite (IIRC they will) Why not make only infinite those around the farmstead?

This will definitely encourage people to build them around the farmstead instead of the CC, and kind of makes sense to me (and the farmland thing could still be implemented if desired)

I think folks didn't want a standard feature (infinite farms) nerfed like that. I originally proposed that farms on farmland would be infinite, while when built elsewhere they needed replanting. Ideas was nixed.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm a designer at heart, I want to place farms where I think they would fit :-)

I could live with a button in the farmstead that says: 'plant farms' and if you click that it will automatically build farms around it, but if you don't you can build farms around it yourself. Maybe that could satisfy the people who don't want too much micromanagement and the people who want to design beautiful cities.

obiusly me too but a little farmyard with Farmstead, and less than build one. and can be mini Edited April 3, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Mythos_Ruler]

obiusly me too but a little farmyard with Farmstead, and less than build one. and can be mini

From a game design standpoint, I think you want each building to have a distinct function and not share features and functions with other buildings. Basically, you want each building to have a very defined reason for being in the game without much overlap with other buildings. What I'm saying is, you don't want two different buildings that do the exact same thing (your "garden" vs. a standard farm field). Each should have a unique function.

[Lion.Kanzen]

From a game design standpoint, I think you want each building to have a distinct function and not share features and functions with other buildings. Basically, you want each building to have a very defined reason for being in the game without much overlap with other buildings. What I'm saying is, you don't want two different buildings that do the exact same thing (your "garden" vs. a standard farm field). Each should have a unique function.

not bad garden, like can plan tree apple? to collect, but i dont really care if the building have incorporates that, im more inteesting in a Radial LOS to give bonus for farming and very far of Main CC.

I likethe idea of Farm Colonies. that happens with mnyCivilizations, like Carthage and Rome. in late time Rome dont Produces own food.

think in Egypt, large Farm Land near Nile Valley. but im agree the Civic Center with farms don't be good thing visually.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Mythos_Ruler]

Planting orchards was once planned. It wouldn't be a bad idea. Could replace the "regenerating berry bushes" idea.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Planting orchards was once planned. It wouldn't be a bad idea. Could replace the "regenerating berry bushes" idea.

yeah the point is that, the people can desire have for Many reason a Farmstead.

[alpha123]

I like the berry bushes idea (also for apple trees etc?).

Yeah, it would be for all food.fruit sources. They might have different regeneration rates though.

Maybe something 'seasonal' the bush stays 'empty' for a while, then suddenly regenerates berries.

Mythos suggested that. I'm open to it. We can tweak some values here and there to see what the best combination of delay and rate is.

You should also be able to chop down bushes (which gives wood) to make building space.

No. I'm not even sure if the engine supports this, but that's hitting that point where too much realism hurts gameplay.

I see a lot of potential for this idea and I'm already dreaming of fighting over fertile valleys!

See that's the thing, that's not going to happen unless the bonus is HUGE.

OK, you go expand to a fertile valley, spend a lot of money and time on a CC, while I'll be happily at home farming less efficiently and then destroy you.

Planting orchards was once planned. It wouldn't be a bad idea. Could replace the "regenerating berry bushes" idea.

I think we could combine them. Makes them less micro-intensive (you don't have to keep replanting them). I was trying to figure out the details how planting orchards would work. Would there be a special building that grows orchards near it? Would regular units be able to plant orchards? Would they have a time to grow?

We're going to have to explore one or more (probably both) of planting and regeneration for food.fruit to be a viable food source (which IMO it should be).

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think we could combine them. Makes them less micro-intensive (you don't have to keep replanting them). I was trying to figure out the details how planting orchards would work. Would there be a special building that grows orchards near it? Would regular units be able to plant orchards? Would they have a time to grow?

We're going to have to explore one or more (probably both) of planting and regeneration for food.fruit to be a viable food source (which IMO it should be).

I think food.grain gather rate can be reduced immediately. This would make other food sources more attractive in the early game.

Also, about berries. What if they regenerate if you don't gathering them all the way? So, if you gather them down to 0 they disappear like they do now, but if you switch to something else before they reach 0 then they can regenerate.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I think food.grain gather rate can be reduced immediately. This would make other food sources more attractive in the early game.

Also, about berries. What if they regenerate if you don't gathering them all the way? So, if you gather them down to 0 they disappear like they do now, but if you switch to something else before they reach 0 then they can regenerate.

i thni to the possibly to upgrade villagers to can Hunt. thinking in Britons an others. Edited April 3, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[alpha123]

I think food.grain gather rate can be reduced immediately. This would make other food sources more attractive in the early game.

Also, about berries. What if they regenerate if you don't gathering them all the way? So, if you gather them down to 0 they disappear like they do now, but if you switch to something else before they reach 0 then they can regenerate.

I don't really like that idea. First: unnecessary micro: you have to constantly check the berries and pull your units away if they get low. I consider myself more of a micro player and I wouldn't like this. Second: realism... you don't eat the bush. Even if you gather all the berries on it they'll grow back next season.

[idanwin]

No. I'm not even sure if the engine supports this, but that's hitting that point where too much realism hurts gameplay.

Uh-uh, that's certainly not true, not being able to remove a bush while that's the perfect spot for a fortress, or a wonder is a real pain in the @#$% and THAT would hurt gameplay.

At least you should be able to construct over it and it would disappear automatically, but that could lead to accidental removal of a food source that you may still want (mostly for new players), and that is why I proposed being able to chop them down (something like: select bush, check 'chop this bush down', assign a civilian to that bush, and instead of gathering food, he chops the bush down)

See that's the thing, that's not going to happen unless the bonus is HUGE.

OK, you go expand to a fertile valley, spend a lot of money and time on a CC, while I'll be happily at home farming less efficiently and then destroy you.

Depending on the length of the game, having control over such a place will be more worthwhile. The bonus doesn't have to be that HUGE, I think. And, with no-attack timers in the game ...

[Lion.Kanzen]

Idawin that type of Structures Farm, Gardens with bushes, can be turn in fire. think in Hannibal Razing Famland in Italy.

[alpha123]

Uh-uh, that's certainly not true, not being able to remove a bush while that's the perfect spot for a fortress, or a wonder is a real pain in the @#$% and THAT would hurt gameplay.

It would take quite a while to chop it down. Any half-decent player would simply find another place for the fortress.

Maybe the solution is to allow you to delete Gaia entities in your territory. I'm not really thrilled about that idea, but I think people probably would burn down a small patch of forest so that they could put a building foundation there.

Depending on the length of the game, having control over such a place will be more worthwhile. The bonus doesn't have to be that HUGE, I think. And, with no-attack timers in the game ...

No-attack timers are for noobs who probably have more important things to worry about than farming efficiency anyway.

Only playtesting will tell, but I don't think anyone wants to implement such a feature, especially not while farms are the only source of food.

[Lion.Kanzen]

i think in each map volcanic map for example, its impossible. and irreal farming, tiny Inlands, too.

[idanwin]

Soil close to volcanoes often is very fertile. Sorry, a bit off-topic maybe.

[gab]

i like the idea of farmland : fighting over territories is one of the good things in 0ad

farm regenerating near mill(so that they are nearly immortal when build near a mill(lasting twice longer would be enougth))make the mill a lot more attractive(but keep the CC as an early option)

undestructible regenerative bush seems worth thinking, bush would still be usefull in the late game

technologie like "farmer : gathering rate from bush decrease, gathering rate from farm increase" and vice versa would then become interresing : either you rely on very efficient but sparce and spread over the map bushs, either you rely on less efficient but compact and easy to protect and build farms(the technologies would make doing both an inefficient choice)

by the way, the fancy terrain look great but the transition beetween then is maybe not smooth enought(specialy beetween fancy and non-fancy terrain)

Edited April 6, 2013 by gab

[idanwin]

i like the idea of farmland : fighting over territories is one of the good things in 0ad

+1

That's, as far as I understood, the whole concept of 0AD. Not just skirmish games but real border push'n'pull.

farm regenerating near mill(so that they are nearly immortal when build near a mill(lasting twice longer would be enougth))make the mill a lot more attractive(but keep the CC as an early option)

Why keep CC as early option? Farms should not be build around CC. NEVER. That's it. The End.

In the beginning you get chickens, bushes and hunting. Farms should be build around mills, and only mills. Maybe a no-farms range around CC's?

undestructible regenerative bush seems worth thinking, bush would still be usefull in the late game

I have an idea: what if there was a building like 'vineyard' (but for berries) which can only be build on a patch of berry bushes. This would increase the production of said fruit during the late game, workers have to be assigned to work there. This can only be a supplement, farms have to stay the primary food source in late game.

technologie like "farmer : gathering rate from bush decrease, gathering rate from farm increase" and vice versa would then become interresing : either you rely on very efficient but sparce and spread over the map bushs, either you rely on less efficient but compact and easy to protect and build farms(the technologies would make doing both an inefficient choice)

Impossible, you can't rely on bushes spread over the map (unless there's a lot of them). It would spoil the realism of the game entirely anyway.

I do like that technology however. If it is well balanced, I think it might even be feasible.

Edited April 6, 2013 by idanwin

[alpha123]

farm regenerating near mill(so that they are nearly immortal when build near a mill(lasting twice longer would be enougth))make the mill a lot more attractive(but keep the CC as an early option)

Well, we're already going to have infinite farms, so that wouldn't really work.

technologie like "farmer : gathering rate from bush decrease, gathering rate from farm increase" and vice versa would then become interresing : either you rely on very efficient but sparce and spread over the map bushs, either you rely on less efficient but compact and easy to protect and build farms(the technologies would make doing both an inefficient choice)

Yup, that's pretty much exactly the kind of thing we're going for. You'll have to decide which food source (corrals, farms, or fruit) that you'll go for. Each will have advantages and disadvantages.

I'm not really sure where hunting and fishing fall into this. I think they should be supplementary food sources, instead of primary ones like milk/farm/fruit.

Maybe a no-farms range around CC's?

I don't really like that idea, but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel like we should encourage farms to be built around farmsteads, instead of discouraging them being built around CCs.

One really convenient thing about building around the CC is that in case of a raid, the CC can be garrisoned to save farmers. Maybe farmsteads should be garrisonable too, just to encourage them a bit more over CCs (in addition to some other solutions).

This can only be a supplement, farms have to stay the primary food source in late game.

But that's the exact problem we're trying to solve. Corrals and fruit should be viable primary food sources in the late game.

Impossible, you can't rely on bushes spread over the map (unless there's a lot of them). It would spoil the realism of the game entirely anyway.

A lot of people agree there need to be a lot more bushes and fruit trees on the maps. I don't know why you think it would spoil the realism of the game. Wouldn't it add to it? Most locations have more than one clump of 5 berry bushes.

[idanwin]

I don't really like that idea, but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel like we should encourage farms to be built around farmsteads, instead of discouraging them being built around CCs.

A no-farmstead range around cc and farms only around farmsteads? With the 'auto-seed' button as presented before.

I don't want to see a single farm build around a CC anymore! I've gotten tired of those unrealistic cities in AoE where the inner city is all farmland. It just makes me sick.

The problem is that historically people never 'just' relied on fruit/farms/meat. Some civs were better with one than with the other but they all used all food sources, and farms were the primary food source (people lived mainly of bread).

I live on a farm myself, and we have an apple orchard, berry bushes and a vineyard as well (and sheep and chickens)(and peaches, prumes, cherries and lots of other stuff that doesn't matter).

Berries and grapes can't be stored, unless dried. Apples can be stored at low temperatures, we have cooling rooms, in medieval times they would've used an icehouse, not sure what they did in ancient times.

Meat/fish can be gotten all year round, but you can't live of those alone.

Many farming products however can be stored for long times (they didn't have potatoes back then, unfortunately, but they did have other things they could store: grains to make bread). These don't need cooling, they just have to be stored dry.

This said it would be a crime to allow a player to get their food from nothing but corrals/fruit.

Also: wild fruit (bushes, apple trees) would be extremely ineffective, which is why I propose a vineyard building and orchard buildings that can be build only where fruit is available and that have an increased production so that these food sources become worthwhile in late game.

A lot of people agree there need to be a lot more bushes and fruit trees on the maps. I don't know why you think it would spoil the realism of the game. Wouldn't it add to it? Most locations have more than one clump of 5 berry bushes.

When I said 'realism' I was not talking about berry bushes being on the map, I was talking about berry bushes being a primary food source. <- This does not happen!

For the sake of realism I would even limit the amount of corrals you can build to a percentage of the amount of farms you have. In the end you need vegetables to give to your animals. But I do understand if some people think that hurts gameplay too much.

No civ should be able to get their food from fruit or meat/fish. To play well you should always need farms.

Edited April 7, 2013 by idanwin