Celtic Buildings

[AbdelMuhamar]

I've been thinking an searching : definitively , the error the designer commited is that they gave the gauls rural buildings instead of urban buildings. Gauls urban buildings were far more bigger and mainly made of stone and wood, with many roofs made of wood.

They were also far more beautiful, delicate when it came to the shapes.

So you depicted the gauls with their rural buildings while at the same time you gave all the other their urban buildings.

[Zeta1127]

There are actually two Celtic factions depicted in the game, the Gauls and the Britons, and as I understand it, have been split in preparation for Alpha 11.

I wonder if it would work better if the Gauls were given a new set of urban structures, while the Britons can just keep the existing rural set.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Zeta1127

[gudo]

I wonder if it would work better if the Gauls were given a new set of urban structures, while the Britons can just keep the existing rural set.

That is a tall order considering how almost the entire Mauryan faction still needs to be modeled. After, it would be pretty cool, I agree

[Zeta1127]

I didn't say it would be easy. I am just trying to present a reasonable solution to AbdelMuhamar's concerns without having to scrap the current Celtic buildings, due to the enthusiasim on the matter.

[historic_bruno]

There are actually two Celtic factions depicted in the game, the Gauls and the Britons, and as I understand it, have been split in preparation for Alpha 11.

Right. It should be noted we always intended a single "Celts" faction, the idea originally was you could choose between either Gauls or Britons once you reached the city phase (we were going to do this with other factions as well, like the Hellenes). Really the only art difference we officially intended was the fortress design. Otherwise they would have been a blend of aspects of both cultures. It wasn't until recently that they were split up on a whim without a lot of discussion beforehand.

I wasn't privy to the original discussions or designs, so I don't know what to tell you about why the current design was chosen, but I can say it was never on the art team's radar to redesign Celts yet again Probably this discussion should be moved to the new Art Development forum.

[Zeta1127]

I am well aware of the original plan for the Hellenes and the Celts (An idea I would love to have seen realized, since I am a displeased with the way Rebellion, the stand-alone expansion for Sins of a Solar Empire (SoaSE), handled faction spliting. Stardock and Ironclad's original plan was the similar to the original plan for the Hellenes and the Celts, but they decided against it.), though I believe the decision to split them was for the best. I was also under the impression that a redesign wasn't planned, especially with the reaction from other members of the team to this thread. I think there is merit to AbdelMuhamar's concerns, and hope a suitable decision from the team is reached.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Zeta1127

[Mythos_Ruler]

It would be a simple thing to just give the Gauls a new longhouse instead of the huts.

It wasn't until recently that they were split up on a whim without a lot of discussion beforehand.

There was tons of discussion about it, actually. One of the reasons of splitting them up was we could make them more unique from the beginning (technologies, units, some buildings), instead of waiting until City Phase to introduce their differences.

[AbdelMuhamar]

It would be a simple thing to just give the Gauls a new longhouse instead of the huts.

That. Along with other buildings modifications for buildings like the civic center, temple... I also think the civic center current model should be used as late Tier Houses for the gauls, Because it really just looks like the house of a wealthy family. Apart from the civic center, I think all the other buildings model should not be completely changed, they should just be improved : they just have to look neater, have finer artwork as decorations, columns, more floors...

[howlingflute]

That. Along with other buildings modifications for buildings like the civic center, temple... I also think the civic center current model should be used as late Tier Houses for the gauls, Because it really just looks like the house of a wealthy family. Apart from the civic center, I think all the other buildings model should not be completely changed, they should just be improved : they just have to look neater, have finer artwork as decorations, columns, more floors...

I disagree. I like the current look and it fits well with rest of the game. If you used the current civ center as a house it would look wierd. Other civs do not have multifloored building either in general. So I think the current models are in keeping with the art style of the game. Though maybe as you suggest more decorations could be added to the houses.

[AbdelMuhamar]

I disagree. I like the current look and it fits well with rest of the game. If you used the current civ center as a house it would look wierd. Other civs do not have multifloored building either in general. So I think the current models are in keeping with the art style of the game. Though maybe as you suggest more decorations could be added to the houses.

I agree about the multi floored buildings, but you can't deny that the other civs buildings look proportionally bigger and higher than the Gauls.

A more simplified version of the civic center (and also smaller in-game for obvious reasons) would definitively be fair. Overall, the Gauls house are unfairly primitive when you compare them to the others (any other) and even the longhouses wouldn't completely solve the problem. For the city phase, they need finer houses.

Decorations will help A LOT, but won't solve everything, overall, some of the 3d models must be slightly changed : some buildings (not all) should look neater, with more perfect shapes and bigger in proportions. More majesty should be given. They must have a more urban design instead of their current rural design.

[Mythos_Ruler]

The temple is based off of a real place, a sanctuary. Not going to change it.

[AbdelMuhamar]

The temple is based off of a real place, a sanctuary. Not going to change it.

I understand. Yet, I still look like some kind of ''small time'' temple. I'm curious to know on which temple it's based (i'm not trying to sound arrogant or mean here ) ? Because the real sanctuary itself might have been a small temple for that time. So it would be unfair to depict them with one of their poorest temple while you give the other civs their rich temples models.

And in the case where this was a big temple that time, I find it surprisingly lacking in terms of art and decorations. It barely looks like a temple.

What I'm meaning is that it's not because you use a real life model that it is representative of all the temples of that time. In fact, I think that this temple is definitively not representative of all the other temples of wealthy realms such as the Averni. Also since the temple you used must be completely in ruins today, and most of the decorations, artwork, columns... have probably disappeared with the time (pillage, erosion...), add to that that there is probably not much descriptions of how it looked at the time. So in the end, if my hypothesis is correct, it was up to you guys to decide wether to go on with a primitive look or an advanced look.

You guys have done a very good job with this game, and sometimes I even feel bad about criticizing it. I really love what you did with the other civilizations, and they really look as great as I imagined them. But in that case I really think that something must be done because there is a big amount of unfairness. The gauls Are a little left out when it comes to the greatness.

Edited July 19, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[Zeta1127]

Speaking of the Celtic Civ Centre, the Caer. Why are the citizen-soldiers in an inverted order in the build menu of the alternate version of the Caer seen in the Belgian Bog scenario? Normally the units at a Civ Centre are organized female citizen, melee citizen-soldier, ranged citizen-solider, and cavalry citizen-soldier, but with the alternate version of the Caer, they are organized female citizen, cavalry citizen-soldier, ranged citizen-soldier, and melee citizen-soldier.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Zeta1127

[zoot]

@AbdelMuhamar Probably the best aid would be illustrations of some kind, because I suspect the real art in modelling is combining all the elements into a cohesive whole. I can relate to your point that the Celts are depicted as kind of primitive, I just can't find any good sources on what exactly urban Celtic architecture looked like.

Edited July 19, 2012 by zoot

[feneur]

I wouldn't say the Celtic temple looks too small. In fact, it's occupying more or less exact the same space as the others (the shape may vary, but they take up more or less the same area in total), so while I'm sure there might be other things one could change, the size isn't one of them.

Another thing to remember is that some choices are made for gameplay reasons, and some for artistic reasons, and some for historical reasons. In many cases they can work together, but sometimes you may have to make a choice that isn't perfect in all points of view. To some extent the way the Celtic buildings look is because of this (to some extent it's down to lack of good references saying something else, so the more help you can provide in that area, the better any possible updates can be), each civilization should have a distinct look to it, and sometimes that means that some aspects are downplayed. That doesn't mean that you can't give the Celtic civilizations a distinct look while still making them look more "civilized", just that it's part of the reason why they look like they do

[AbdelMuhamar]

I wouldn't say the Celtic temple looks too small. In fact, it's occupying more or less exact the same space as the others (the shape may vary, but they take up more or less the same area in total), so while I'm sure there might be other things one could change, the size isn't one of them.

No it's not what I meant. It's not about size, it's about proportions. In terms of proportions the celtic temple really look ''small''. It's about the proportions in the building. If you put these buildings into real life, the celtic temple would be way smaller than the other temple, even if the in-game model is the same size.

Yeah I understand your point about gameplay,diversity... However it's unfair to sacrifice the celts and give them the barbarian role/look. They would still have a distinct look if you gave them a more accurate and civilized look. I don't see how it is a necessity to have one faction take the role of the ''less civilized''.

Also, giving them a more refined look will help them to differ from the future germans.

The celts always take the role of the unrefined barbarian in almost all commercials video games, I hoped (and still hope) that 0ad would be different in this area.

Edited July 20, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[MishFTW]

The villas would be great for the city phase.

We discussed it internally and the rationale was that insulae were more Imperial rather than Republic. And insulae would be a better choice for a city phase. Villae would be great for the towns though

[Zeta1127]

We discussed it internally and the rational was that insulae were more Imperial rather than Republic. And insulae would be a better choice for a city phase. Villae would be great for the towns though

Ah, so the Domus in the Village Phase, the Villae in the Town Phase, and the Insulae in the City Phase, excellent.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Zeta1127

[AbdelMuhamar]

Ah, so the Domus in the Village Phase, the Villae in the Town Phase, and the Insulae in the City Phase, excellent.

But then, if you give them Insulae in the city phase, it would be only fair to give the celts more than just longhouse in the city phase. The gap is just too huge otherwise.

[Pureon]

Ah, so the Domus in the Village Phase, the Villae in the Town Phase, and the Insulae in the City Phase, excellent.

But then, if you give them Insulae in the city phase, it would be only fair to give the celts more than just longhouse in the city phase. The gap is just too huge otherwise.

Just to be clear, we have no plans to make structural changes to buildings when going from one phase to another for part 1 of 0 A.D.

[Zeta1127]

I understand, structural changes to buildings between phases will be something addresed in part 2 of 0 A.D. to improve factions, excellent.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Zeta1127

[feneur]

I understand, structural changes to buildings between phases will be something addresed in part 2 of 0 A.D. to improve factions, excellent.

Nothing is decided about part two yet. I don't mean this as in "this will not happen", but rather as in "don't take anything for granted about part two" We need to finish part one before we start on part two

[Zeta1127]

I know that, I just don't see any reason why it won't happen. I am looking forward to the Parthians after looking into the Battle of Carrhae and the use of cavalry archers that aren't just chariots, not that there is a problem with chariots.

[Zeta1127]

Cataphracts indeed, definitely one of the most impressive types of cavalry in history.

[Zeta1127]

I am well aware of the origins and influence of the cataphract on the future. The cataphract is one of the reasons why I consider the Byzantine Empire "a light when all other lights had gone out" that kept the knowledge of the ancient world alive into the medieval world, until the future finally caught up with them.