Crowd-sourced Civ: Mauryan Indians

[Potter]

Also, maybe we could include some kind of a Vedic (early Hindu) altar as a unique building. Here are some photos:

http://upload.wikime...9/91/Yajna1.jpg

http://brahmag.com/images/altar2.jpg

http://www.lakeisler...tar_Stephen.jpg

Some of those images are later altars, but they just give you a sense of the structure of the building... maybe it could be about the size of the Iberian "revered monument."

I don't support this idea! We must remember that Vedic/Hindu religion is a living one (Still being followed in India) and hence must steer clear of hurting sentiments. AOE 3 made the mistake of including religious buildings, which lead to hurting sentiments of the several players...

A generic temple would not hurt much! but, one that includes statues of recognisable gods is sure to stir something, which we may need to avoid.Players usually dont like their gods razed to ground by enemy armies!!!

So, if we need an altar, please make one without having recognisable god statues.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Potter

[Adi12]

I don't support this idea! We must remember that Vedic/Hindu religion is a living one (Still being followed in India) and hence must steer clear of hurting sentiments. AOE 3 made the mistake of including religious buildings, which lead to hurting sentiments of the several players...

A generic temple would not hurt much! but, one that includes statues of recognisable gods is sure to stir something, which we may need to avoid.Players usually dont like their gods razed to ground by enemy armies!!!

So, if we need an altar, please make one without having recognisable god statues.

In the modern Hindu religon dieties are divided into two groups, Deva, and Bhagavan. Deva mean god with a small g such as Indra, Varuna, Mitra, Surya. Deva are not worshipped as much today as they were in the time of the Mauryas. Bhagavan means God with a capital G, different groups vernerate different

Bhagavans such as Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti, Genesha. If we use any statues of them then chances are we will offend some goup.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Did they paint any of the reliefs or sculptures in ancient India (like the Greeks and Romans did), or did they leave them bare?

[historic_bruno]

I don't support this idea! We must remember that Vedic/Hindu religion is a living one (Still being followed in India) and hence must steer clear of hurting sentiments. AOE 3 made the mistake of including religious buildings, which lead to hurting sentiments of the several players...

It's a game... it's not as if what you see on screen is actually happening. No one will be forced to play or watch it. I don't see why when we strive for historical accuracy in every other civ, we should make an exception for one. The fact is temples and altars would have been and were destroyed by invading armies all throughout history. This concern is too PC (politically correct) for my liking, if people are that sensitive they shouldn't play a historical RTS or at least not a scenario portraying their region.

[Adi12]

In my opinion destruction of temples and altars is not a light matter. Tens of thousands of people gave their lives to protect temples and altars, people have cut out their own tongues to protect temples. From Malik Kafur to Auragazeb, foreign invaders have destroyed Hindu temple by the tens of thousands. It seems disrespectful to the memory of all those who gave their lives to protects religious shrines to have the destruction of temples so casually.

[Mythos_Ruler]

The problem is there is no way to portray a culture without making an effort to portray its religion. 0 A.D. is a war game, so there is going to be destruction involved. Would Indian RTS players just rather not see the Mauryans included at all, or do they understand it's just a video game?

[Adi12]

I do not think anyone will have an objection to destruction of temples and altars so long as the destruction of statues of Vishnu, Shiva, or Shakti is not shown.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I do not think anyone will have an objection to destruction of temples and altars so long as the destruction of statues of Vishnu, Shiva, or Shakti is not shown.

Seems like a reasonable compromise.

[Potter]

I do not think anyone will have an objection to destruction of temples and altars so long as the destruction of statues of Vishnu, Shiva, or Shakti is not shown.

+1. I fully agree.

And, considering that small gods like Indra, Agni were worshiped more during the Mauryan period (the religious sects of saivism and vaishnavism were just becoming popular during Mauryan period), this viewpoint will be more historically accurate than using statues of major gods like Vishnu, Shiva, or Shakti..

[Atenmeses52]

We could also try to make an altar-type building without having statues at all. These images might be a good place to start:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0ZQPdiVqQCI/TZcvEq6FjwI/AAAAAAAAGsE/lZYBaByK8xc/s1600/vedic-altar.jpg

http://www.karunamayi.org/News/images/atlanta%20vedic%20altar%20puja%20sadhana%20agni%20hindu%20ritual%20worship%20flame%20fire%20roses%20pics_page_10.jpg

And here's a geometric sketch of the top-view of an altar:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/george/yantra/yantra2.GIF

[Atenmeses52]

Also, I just found this website that could help with the Sanskrit names for the Buildings--Here is a list of the building names from the original post of this thread in both Sanskrit and English:

• Civilization Centre: madhya
  
• House: vasati
  
• Corral/Animal Pen: vivIta
  
• Mill (wood and mineral dropsite): khalla
  
• Farmstead (food dropsite): kSetrikagRha
  
• Farm Field: kSetra
  
• Palisade (wooden wall): Aphalaka
  
• Outpost (wooden tower): uparakSaNa
  
• Barracks: sainyAvAsa
  
• Dock: naukAsthAnaka
  
• Market: ApaNa
  
• Temple: devAlaya
  
• Defense Tower (usually stone): aTTa
  
• Stone Wall: bhitti
  
• Wall Tower: attaka
  
• Gate: dvAra
  
• Fortress: purA
  

There were MANY other Sanskrit words for some of the English words, especially for tower and wall, so I suggest consulting somebody who knows Sanskrit to find the best word, but for now I think this is a decent list.

Here is the URL of the website:

http://spokensanskrit.de/

In addition, I found a journal article on the Naval history of Ancient India-- I haven't had the time to go through it, but it might be relevant and we could possibly be able to pull some valuable information from it. http://ccbs.ntu.edu..../JR-ENG/cha.htm

After more research, I have found a better resource on Ancient Indian ships: http://www.swahiliweb.net/ziff_journal_3_files/ziff2006-05.pdf

It includes pictures, but they're not the best quality!

Edited June 1, 2012 by Atenmeses52

[Pureon]

Thanks Atenmeses52, those are very useful

[Adi12]

Brilliant job Atenmesse52, the list Iooks mostly correct, I asked my mom who knows some Sanskrit to look at the words. She had some pointers to make:

• House: Griham (vastati is a verb meaning "dwelling in")
  
• Ksetram actually has religious connotation as in "field of sacrifice". It can also mean a place of pilgrimage or holy place.
  
• Madhya means "middle" or "center" as the physical location, a different word for Civ Center could be "Rajadhani" meaning "Capital"
  

I'll ask my grandma to go over the words since she knows Sanskrit quite well.

[daudbinbutrus]

I don't support this idea! We must remember that Vedic/Hindu religion is a living one (Still being followed in India) and hence must steer clear of hurting sentiments. AOE 3 made the mistake of including religious buildings, which lead to hurting sentiments of the several players...

A generic temple would not hurt much! but, one that includes statues of recognisable gods is sure to stir something, which we may need to avoid.Players usually dont like their gods razed to ground by enemy armies!!!

So, if we need an altar, please make one without having recognisable god statues.

Yeah, I could see that as a problem. I mean, I don't feel any remorse for raising a digital building to the ground, religious or otherwise. On the other hand, simulating the destruction of a sacred structure isn't always best move even if it is an altar without gods.

I can see arguments on both sides. I know if people simulated destroying my religion's most sacred structures, people would throw a fit. At the same time, this is a historical game and it is a common issue in historical war (temples, mosques, churches, etc.).

[daudbinbutrus]

One thing I could point out, I never destroy mosques in AoE3. It's not required in order to win since it is just a support building anyway. If I understand correctly (I haven't played enough to know), it would work similarly here anyway, right? At least somebody could avoid it in single-player scenarios (since in multiplayer the other person could choose to destroy it).

[Pureon]

One thing I could point out, I never destroy mosques in AoE3. It's not required in order to win since it is just a support building anyway. If I understand correctly (I haven't played enough to know), it would work similarly here anyway, right? At least somebody could avoid it in single-player scenarios (since in multiplayer the other person could choose to destroy it).

That's true, especially when capturing is implemented. However, please keep on topic.

If anyone has visual examples of ancient barrel-roofed buildings from India those would be very helpful

[Enrique]

If anyone has visual examples of ancient barrel-roofed buildings from India those would be very helpful

I think these ones are already known, but anyway, pages 6 and 7 here:

http://www.scribd.co...1-Ancient-India

See also:

The peepal leaf structure mays not necessarily be a necessary part of Buddhist origin. An entry on Indian architecture from Encyclopaedia Brittanica cites a Toda village hut (see picture below, right) from South India as an example and writes the following:- "Early Indian architecture was almost entirely of wooden construction, and the forms thus established were later closely imitated in brick and stone. The various forms of domed and barrel-vaulted roofs, gabled windows and roof ends, pillars and cornices are developed from wooden prototypes; the Toda hut, for example, even at the present day presents a striking likeness to a barrel-vaulted gable-ended temple."

[Pureon]

I think these ones are already known, but anyway, pages 6 and 7 here:

http://www.scribd.co...1-Ancient-India

Yep, those are the ones we're looking into.

[Mythos_Ruler]

The way I look at it is, if someone's feelings are going to be hurt by a digital representation of their religion's temple being destroyed in a war game, then perhaps they shouldn't be playing a war game to begin with. Said sensitive individuals seem to have no qualms with destroying the temples of other religions? Hm? And the reason temples are conquest critical is because they can train units that affect the outcome of the game. I really can't see any situation where we would not allow the destruction of an Indian temple or any other culture's temple. We endeavor to represent the culture of our factions as authentically as we can within the limitations imposed upon us by the game engine and genre, so that is how we are showing respect for these cultures, by portraying them in a dignified and authentic manner.

[Jeru]

I agree with Michael.

In general, I think it is curious to have no qualms with wholesale massacre of representations of people on screen during a game, but to have a problem with destroying a representation of a building.

[Adi12]

If a temple can be built then I don't think anyone can complain when they get destroyed. Destruction of temples is a relatively minor thing when it comes to religion and video games, I don't think any Hindus or Hindu groups will be offended.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Taking the liberty to show off something Pureon whipped up (textures are a serious work in progress):

[Atenmeses52]

If a temple can be built then I don't think anyone can complain when they get destroyed. Destruction of temples is a relatively minor thing when it comes to religion and video games, I don't think any Hindus or Hindu groups will be offended.

Also I would like to add that the Persian Temple is Zoroastrian and, despite being a small religion, I don't think any Zoroastrians were offended by the destruction of their temple (I know that there are a lot more Hindus than Zoroastrians in the world, but nevertheless nobody was offended). The destruction of temples is also historically accurate-- For example: the Temple of Jerusalem, among other famous religious sites, was sacked many times in antiquity by the Romans, Assyrians, and Babylonians.

I do understand the harm it might do to devoutly religious people, but, as Michael said before if they have a problem with seeing a holy building destroyed, they might not want to play the game. Another thought is that we might want to give the more historically religiously tolerant civilizations, like Persia, a special power that says that when a temple would normally be destroyed, it could change ownership to the conqueror's civilization, and the conqueror would be able to train mercenary units of the conquered civilization from the captured temple. Just an idea for thought! And good work Pureon, I think those look very good and realistic given the images we found.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Atenmeses52

[Potter]

Also I would like to add that the Persian Temple is Zoroastrian and, despite being a small religion, I don't think any Zoroastrians were offended by the destruction of their temple (I know that there are a lot more Hindus than Zoroastrians in the world, but nevertheless nobody was offended). The destruction of temples is also historically accurate-- For example: the Temple of Jerusalem, among other famous religious sites, was sacked many times in antiquity by the Romans, Assyrians, and Babylonians.

I do understand the harm it might do to devoutly religious people, but, as Michael said before if they have a problem with seeing a holy building destroyed, they might not want to play the game.

Just to make things clear, I am not against including Indian temples ingame. As said earlier, destruction of temples is historically accurate and can remain in the game.

What I suggested was to not include recognisable Major GOD STATUES within the temples... Temples can still have statues of minor gods and other sculptures.

Please, lets not get distracted with this! Lets continue discussing abt the awesome Mauryan Indian civ...

Edited June 2, 2012 by Potter

[Shield Bearer]

Does anyone know when the practice of growing a tulsi plant in each house started? Would be nice to have outside each house

I'm talking about the tulsi shrine, as seen here: