Civ: Palmyrenes

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

Infantry equipment.

I had already shared my vision of the Palmyra swordman infantry above.

https://www.twcenter.net/threads/updated-collection-of-palmyrene-and-late-phartian-early-sassanid-armies-pics-and-miniatures.772222/

 

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/archive/index.php?thread-18515.html

Composition of the armies of the third century.

It would seem that, if III Gallica are representative of other legions, the Roman army in the east remained loyal to Rome after the death of Odenathus. There could well have been defections, but as far as I know there's no evidence for this.

 

Palmyrene cavalry was very heavily armoured, so cataphracts would be a good guess. Otherwise, Zosimus gives Zenobia 'Syrians... Saracens and Armenians' - apparently light cavalry. Palmyra was a great trading centre, and probably made good use of mercenaries - the shifting allegiance of the Saracens and Armenians might reflect this.

 

Aurelian's army of the period was similarly polyglot: 'Mauritanian horse... Tyaneans... Mesopotamians... Syrians... Phoenicians, and... Palestinians' besides the Praetorians and legionary troops drawn from the Danube. (all quotes Zosimus , Historia Nova, Book I)

 

- Nathan

Edited 22 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

https://www.eliteminiaturesaustralia.com.au/a-miniatures-palmyran-army-3rd-century/?srsltid=AfmBOootOYKRW1X_8_8-2LqMPbaZcWsD7OyOnIvm8ALkbG7Qh2ZLwLTf

 

This is difficult; there aren't many sources on the appearance of archers.

Basically, it's a combination of Eastern archers with a Persian archer and a Syrian auxiliary archer.

Edited 21 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[ThePoshBarbarian]

16 hours ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

 

 

Some concepts for Camel riders.

I believe that first image, used as reference for the ai, is carrying javelins? I at least think it's javelins, as the rider seems to be pulling it out of a quiver? It looks like it might be a large/long quiver but I'd need to find the original image to check.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

22 minutes ago, ThePoshBarbarian said:

I believe that first image, used as reference for the ai, is carrying javelins? I at least think it's javelins, as the rider seems to be pulling it out of a quiver? It looks like it might be a large/long quiver but I'd need to find the original image to check.

The original uses javelins, but the descriptions mention multiple weapons: swords, spears, javelins, and arrows.

I am using AI to refer to units that have hardly any illustrations.

https://www.historiascripta.org/classical-antiquity/dromedarii-camel-riders-in-the-roman-army/

"Palmyra / Tadmor, Homs governorate, Syria: Palmyra Museum. Caravan camel guarded by men armed with spear and sword".

Edited 5 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com/2024/12/roman-camel-cavalry.html?m=1

My intention was only to show Arab clothing used by some Palmyrene units; it's complicated to show a single look for the troops.

The most outstanding and different units in the Palmyra army that distinguish them from other civs are the camel riders.

"Dromedarii were camel-riding auxiliary forces recruited in the desert provinces of the late Roman Empire in Roman Syria".

"A 1000-strong dromedarius unit, the ala I Ulpia Dromedariorum milliaria, was established by Trajan in Syria. A small number of dromedarii is recorded as part of the Cohors XX Palmyrenorum based in Dura-Europos in Roman Syria".

Edited 5 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

I'm going to put this label up to be more transparent.

I requested this image based on the previous images. 

 

I'm not happy with how the pants were designed.

The helmets that this unit would use are very specific.

Auxiliary cavalry helmets.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

@ThePoshBarbarian

This is the image you wanted.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modius_(headdress)

Another item of clothing worn by the units is the modius hat.

I'm not sure if it was only used by priests.

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I'm not happy with how the pants were designed.

Pants? Look at those boots, that design looks so modern I'm sure I can go out and buy them in the next hour.

I think one has to be way more careful with AI, not the first dubious thing I've seen around lately.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

19 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Pants? Look at those boots, that design looks so modern I'm sure I can go out and buy them in the next hour.

I think one has to be way more careful with AI, not the first dubious thing I've seen around lately.

There were boots of Persian origin at that time; they don't seem modern to me.

But she is not trained to make Persian boots, very specific Roman helmets, very specific trousers.

 

Mostly, I take an existing drawing and use it to show me a better version. For example, I need to better appreciate the riders.

Edited 2 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Thalatta]

5 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

There were boots of Persian origin at that time; they don't seem modern to me.

But she is not trained to make Persian boots, very specific Roman helmets, very specific trousers.

Can you show evidence of any ancient boot, Persian or otherwise, looking like that?

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

15 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Can you show evidence of any ancient boot, Persian or otherwise, looking like that?

"Looking like that"

I don't think boots that look like a draw exist.

https://www.res-bellica.com/en/shop/calcei-4/

Second, I'm not focusing on footwear.(Right now).

 

@Thalatta you know to draw?

How do I know if this boot is modern or not? I see a bunch of very blurry pixels.

Edited 2 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Thalatta]

1 minute ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I don't think boots that look like a draw exist.

Which is my point. Your image now is much closer to what we actually know about. Both styles are quite different.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

14 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Which is my point. Your image now is much closer to what we actually know about. Both styles are quite different.

What is modern to you?

 

Fantasy is more probably and best choice of words.

You're missing something very important; I'm not the one who's going to design the final textures.

You're new here... I'm not, maybe my username is.

The process that our units go through is very detailed.

They will not be based on a single illustration.

Then one or several artists create initial designs, which are then evaluated by the community and experts.

Forums are for discussing and presenting evidence.

 

What I want from AI is for it to save me from having to combine several concepts at the same time.

I can tell you to take the helmet from one side, take the armor from the other.

 

I will open a topic on the use of AI in 2026 because probably another year of advancement, investment in data center and memory, plus learning, will allow it to do detailed things.

It would be interesting if Angus McBride himself drew oriental archers that Palmyra could have used.

Edited 2 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

I'll show you an example of something very problematic.

 

This unit is problematic. 

This is the primary evidence.

As far as I know, there is no archaeological evidence of this equipment.

When I say archaeological, I mean that this equipment was never found. It was only found artistically.

Again, I repeat, as far as I know.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

The second phase is to find secondary sources.

Illustrations and photos of the renaactor or of reconstructed parts/pieces.

As you can see, not all the armor belongs to infantry, or at least I'm skeptical about using it en masse.

I need more references for this idea... and I'm look around trying to drawings and wargaming figures or even Total war forums/Tale forums.

I also read, but for an artist, reading is not the same as watching.

And if not, I resort to making drawings or asking an artist to do it for me.

We used to turn to Lorgood for sketching.

Lately we've been resorting to @Obskiuras

We had several artists, none of them active.

Some of our artists have gone on to work on current Age of Empires projects. 

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

I've had problems with the Palmyran archers; I don't want to take the easy way out, opting for the Syrian Auxiliar Archer.

At least judging by the look of the archer from the Principate era I-II AD.That would be very lazy of me.

If you notice, I'm not looking for cataphracts; those references are very easy and popular.

There are no direct references to Palmyrene archers, it only says that they could very well have been Syrian Roman auxiliaries, but we do not know what they looked like in the third century.

Edited 1 hour ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

6 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I've had problems with the Palmyran archers; I don't want to take the easy way out, opting for the Syrian Auxiliar Archer.

At least judging by the look of the archer from the Principate era I-II AD.That would be very lazy of me.

If you notice, I'm not looking for cataphracts; those references are very easy and popular.

There are no direct references to Palmyrene archers, it only says that they could very well have been Syrian Roman auxiliaries, but we do not know what they looked like in the third century.

I must and ner take into account that 0 AD has CS (citizen soldiers).

Therefore, I need to find three equipment levels: basic, advanced, and elite.