ARCHÉ

[SMST]

ARCHÉ

Hi everyone. In this thread, I want to lay down a concept for a RTS game that I've planned more or less for four years and maybe make it as a modification of 0AD.

Basic concepts:

The general idea behind the game is very similar to games like Empire Earth or Civilisation - you start with a small tribe of prehistoric men and lead them through the ages to become the world's superpower in the Modern Ages and beyond. There are two main things, however, that I like to stress:

a)Historical accuracy

Especially Empire Earth lost when it actually came to accuracy and variation. In the footsteps of 0AD, I plan to present historical authentic factions and a proper historical evolvement. Each faction gets its own units (although there will be some decent amount of semi-recycling because of scale issues), strengths, weaknesses and even its own individual ages. The tech tree of the game should allow the player to evolve his civilisation steadily in one direction through the ages. Even civ unique abilities will be able to be improved by unique technologies.

b)Lose the combat-only focus

An issue of complaining in most RTS games is the strong focus on combat and the neglection of any other strategical elements to actually win the game. Even 0AD follows the (questionable) philosophy of setting war above anything else and making economics, diplomatics or technology merely helpers to the player's army. In my game, these possibilites will be on par with warfare, allowing the player to win by economic pressure put on the enemy by taking strategic ressources or disrupting trade routes, by trade territories, units or ressouces for an alliance or corner him diplomatically by damaging his renown in the gameworld, and by being superior in culture or technology. This will be allowed by the economical system featuring strategic ressources, the more sophisticated diplomatics system and the choice based tech tree.

I'll go a bit further into some of the game's sub-areas: economics, unit types, ages and factions.

Economics

Other than 0AD did with its rather unique concept of citizen soldiers, ARCHÉ will bring back the citziens into the game. They will be the backbone of the game's economy. There will be some other economic units as well, such as traders or scholars.

There are six gatherable ressources in the game.

Food

Use: To train citizens and most other human units

Acquired by: Hunting, farming, fishing, herding

Wood

Use: Construction of all buildings and pre-industrial naval and siege units

Acquired by: Woodchopping, you guessed it

Metal

Use: Construction of all mechanical units and attack units (sword infantry, cavalry)

Acquired by: Mining

Oil

Use: Training of all industrial mechanical units (tanks, naval and air units, artillery)

Acquired by: Derricks, maybe off-shore platforms too

All of the former ressources are gathered by citizens, for the last two there will be special economical units.

Gold

Use: Barter for other ressources at the market, train support and defensive military units and research upgrades

Acquired by: Taxation (of territories or civic centres), Trading (Land or Sea)

Knowledge

Use: Research all technologies and age upgrades

Acquired by: Scholars garrisoned in Universities

Strategical ressources

This is a concept that I borrowed from Rise of Nations, where this kind of ressources is called "rare ressources". However, they will be much more of a focus here. Strategical ressources are not to be gathered, instead giving you a bonus by holding them (by taking control of the territory that they're in) The resource types vary from those which give you economic or trade boni, reduces costs and increase efficiency of your units, even giving you access of completely new unit lines. An example for the last type is Uranium, which grants the player who controls it (and his allies) access to nuclear weapons. Holding a strategical ressource can decide the outcome of a game and they will surely be a reason for both battles and alliances.

Territorries

Like in 0 A.D., the game world is divided in territorries. The ownership of a territorry is decided by the player who owns the settlement of this territory (by building a Civic Centre upon a settlement site).

City Levels

The efficiency of a territorry depends on the "level" of the territory's city. The higher developed the city is, the more efficient things in that territory will run. The cities "level up" automatically over time, given that there are no things to disrupt the economical growth, such as enemy raids. Connecting a poorer city with a richer city by trade routes helps in increasing the growing rate. Every player also has a "capital" (his starting Civic Centre) which, if it is connected with a territorry, increases its growing rate significantly. A higher levelled city means for example faster ressource gathering rates, faster unit training and research time and the ability to build additional civic buildings, such as universities and temples.

Territorial bonusses

Units in territorries that belong to their own faction will be significantly bonussed against attackers. They have better resistance against attacks from invaders. Furthermore, they regenerate their stamina at a higher rate. You can increase these territorrial bonusses by building houses. One house increases the bonusses provided by the territorry it is built in by 5% (to a maximum of 50%)

Note: There is a General unit trainable from the fortress which can provide these bonusses to troops on a campaign, though to a lesser extent.

Unit types

I want to keep the unit line of the game rather streamline, meaning that there are not too much unit types of which each performs a distinct role on the battlefield and that any unit type can be evolved further in all ages and that there are no dead ends to unit lines. The basic classes are inspired by 0AD.

Infantry

Sword/Main Infantry

The main offensive unit. Swordsmen have a very good cost-efficiency ratio and are good agaist most types of infantry. They also are most adept in taking over enemy buildings. They are best used as "storm troops" to gain ground on the battlefield. The swordsman line is upgraded to regular modern Infantry in later ages.

Spear/AT Infantry

The basic defensive unit, heavily armored and performing especially well against cavalry. The spearman line is upgraded to a type of heavy modern infantry that performs an anti-tank role.

Skirmish/Commando Infantry

This is a unit that counters classical counter units, such as Spearmen. Thus, they are best used to support attacks by taking out enemy units that could be a threat to your offensive units. Any kind of skirmish force goes here, such as javelinists, slingers and triallieurs. In modern ages, this will probably been a tank-supporting light infantry unit.

Archers/Marksmen/MG-Infantry

High range, high firing rate. A volley of arrows from a bow, a salve of shoots from a gun or a rapid rain of bullets from a MG take out most units that are too slow to either run or keep up with them. Protect them against fast units such as light cavalry, for archers/MG troops do especially poorly in close combat.

Cavalry

Light Cavalry/Tank

These units are actually meant to perform duties like scouting, raiding or chasing the enemy rather than do actual fighting. They are light, fast and rather cheap.

Heavy Cavalry/Tank

Heavliy armored, fast and deadly. Your ultimate offensive unit. Very expensive, though, and quite vulnerable if your opponent has the right counter units. Does not very well on rough terrain (as does all cavalry)

Missile Cavalry/Tank Destroyers

A rather peculiar unit, it is the best unit in terms of speed, agility and range. They will have the ability to fire while moving, thus being able to quickly advance and fall back and being quite a harrass to your enemies. In early ages, these unit class will cover cavalry archers, javelinists and gun cavalry, while they will be upgraded to tank destroyers and infantry fighting vehicles later on.

Siege

There will be the classic units like catapults, rams, cannons and artillery. There might be some more special, civ unique siege units, too.

Navy

The Navy will be based on four ship types:

Light ship: Good against naval support units and submarines, poor against any higher level ships

Medium ship: Quite balanced unit. Good for massing naval power. Bonussed against light ships

Heavy ship: Good against any other naval unit (except subs, who counter it), but the numbers are restricted due to costs and a limit of one per civic centre

Submarine: Fast and deadly sub-surface unit. Good against medium and heavy ships.

Aircraft

Needs yet to be decided. The basic units, such as fighters, fighter/bombers and bombers will appear, of course.

Ages

There will be 12 (14) ages in PG:E who cover the whole history of mankind. Rather than having generic names for all civilisations, the ages will have specific names for each civilisation, at least in the earlier ages. These hstorical ages will be mirrored in the unit roster of the particular faction and age. (note: This concept proves difficult, so I'll probably stick with the generic names)

The 12 ages are divided in 3 "eras" which contain a bunch of ages. At the end of each era, the factions will be able to develop their super units and unique technologies.

Ancient era:

Stone Age

No Metal resource required yet. Primitive Infantry only, no cavalry. Units cost Food and Stone. Basic fortifications (think of palisades in AoK). Mud and wattle huts--buildings only cost Wood. No farming, only hunting, fishing, and gathering.

Bronze Age

Metal resource activated. Some buildings start costing Stone. First farming. First light cavalry unit line. Stronger stone fortifications (think: Mycenaeans, Babylonians, etc.). From this age onwards, additional civic centres can be built. The first light attack ship. Land and Sea trade introduced.

Iron Age

Siege towers and basic siege techniques developed. Fortresses and more sophisticated defensive structures are now available. Chariots introduced. More naval units. Land and Sea trade bonused. Tribute enabled.

Classical Age

Peak of ancient civilisation. University introduced. Wonders and unique units can now be built. Players can choose their political and religious systems, with unique bonuses.

Medieval era:

Medieval Age

The Trebuchet is introduced as well as the portcullis, sally port, and castle keeps. The longbow and crossbow can be researched depending upon civilisation. The chariot line evolves into a new cataphract line of cavalry.

Renaissance Age

First appearance of gunpowder units. Artillery changes siege warfare, eventually rendering large stone fortifications obsolete. (14th-15th century). The peak of the cataphract line of cavalry.

Colonial Age

Mixed Pike-Musket-Infantry. (think 16th-17th century) Expanded naval options. (ships lose the ability to ram each other, but are now standardized equipped with artillery, whereas before, units needed to be garrisoned). Warships are now large ships-of-the-line. Trade ships can be upgraded to "Galleons" that can defend themselves. Artillery (cannons) now replace old-style siege weapons. Fortifications revert back to wood and earth.

Enlightenment Age

Full gunpowder infantry line. (18th - 19th centuries) Nationalism rises your territorial bonuses, but it is not more difficult to control new territories. Balloons introduced for reconnaissance. Ironclad warships introduced. Field artillery receives a new "grapeshot" anti-infantry feature.

Modern era:

Industrial Age

Oil (Energy) resource is now available. Armoured units (primitive tanks, dreadnaught battleships) change warfare drastically. (no boarding of ships anymore, for example) First primitive aircraft. Full-automatic weaponry ("machine guns") introduced. Chemical warfare now possible.

Atomic Age

Rapid evolution of aircraft and tanks. All cavalry lines now replaced by mechanized equivalents. First nuclear units (slow and vulnerable nuclear bombers). Most fortifications replaced by pill boxes, fox holes, metal fencing, and outposts. Paratroopers. Aircraft Carriers introduced. Spy planes introduced.

Information Age

Nuclear units become more advanced, nuclear missile bases and nuclear subs are now available. Further advancement of land, air and sea units. Game now becomes less about holding territory and more about researching technology and "force projection" far away from your territory. Tanks, Aircraft carriers, and aircraft reach their zenith. Spy unit introduced, which has multiple functions, such as: assassination, sabotage, stealing technology, and biological warfare. Spy can also bribe groups of enemy units into turning into "freedom fighters," uncontrollable by either player, but hostile to the enemy player.

Global Age

(21th century economics and warfare)

All aircraft replaced by drones, which cost a lot of resources, but do not add to the population cap. Satellite recon available. Nuclear bombers replaced by space-based tactical nukes. Infantry are now "enhanced," depending upon the player's line of research, either technologically or biologically. New territories that come under the player's control are in a constant state of rebellion.

You advance through the ages by researching technologies. To advance from one age to the next, you have to research each of the four innovations (technologies that are specific to that age and resemble great developments, for example the invention of Letters or Gunpowder) of the current age on the one, and four other technologies, which you can choose freely, of the other side. Then the button to advance into the next epoch becomes active in your Civic Centre.

Factions

(redone)

France

France is a rather defensive and cultural-minded civilisation which can also develop a good offensive power if played correctly. They have a better cavalry than the average European nation and posess the strongest defensive structures of the game.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Gallic Celts

Medieval Era: Franks/Feudal France

pre-Modern Era: Absolutistic/Napoleonic France

Modern Era: Modern France

Bonusses:

Leadership: This provides French "General" units (military support units that give a movement and attack speed bonus to your troops, similar to heroes in 0 A.D.) with a greater "aura", meaning their bonus affacts more of the surrounding units. Generals are also cheaper to acquire for a French player.

Advancement: This provides French players with cheaper technologies, representing the fact that France was for a long time the leading cultural power of Western Europe.

Britain

Britain posesses the strongest late-game navy in the game and is thus best suited for naval maps. It also posesses a strong light infantry arm and, later in the game, a strong airforce.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Brythonic Celts (maybe with some Pictish influence in later ages)

Medieval Era: Anglo-Saxon/Norman feudal England

pre-Modern Era: Colonial/Imperial Britain

Modern Era: Modern Britain

Bonusses:

Rule the Waves: British naval transports carry twice as much units, to emphasize their focus on colonial attempts. Together with the strong military navy, this bonus should give Britain a great edge on water maps.

Colonialism: British players can acquire territorries on provincial maps just by building two military buildings on that territory (rather than have to build a town centre on a specified settlement). This is meant to be representative of the British colonial empire.

Germany

Germany has good infantry from the very start of the game, which enables it to do some nasty rush attacks. However, Germany is strongest in the late ages of the game, where it gets strong industrial units such as tanks and aircraft.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Germanic Tribes

Medieval Era: Holy Roman Empire until the rise of Habsburg.

pre-Modern Era: Kingdom of Prussia

Modern Era: Unified German State

Bonusses:

Industry: Germany was a industrial powerhouse after its unification. To represent this, German citizens gather metal and oil at a faster rate.

Federalism: As opposed to the centralism of many past and modern states, Germany is even today a federal state, the origins of this system dating back to the Holy Roman empire where it was a loose confederation of single states. German civic centres' economics will grow at full rate even if not connected with the capital civic centre. (a recent idea was the economical development of cities and territorries)

Russia

Russia has the fastest light cavalry in the game, which enables them to raid frequently and effective. It relies on numbers of its soilders rather than on quality, backed up with some or the greatest industrial units in the late game.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Skythians and Sarmatian tribes

Medieval Era: Rus/Early Moscowite

pre-Modern Era: Tzaristic Russia

Modern Era: Soviet/Modern Russia

Bonusses:

Russian Winter: The vast landscapes and harsh climate of the Russian lands have spelled doom for many invaders throughout the whole history of thet country. In the game, this will represented by enemy units suffering movement and attack rate penalties as well as reduced resistance to damage and a lower stamina regeneration rate when invading Russian territorry.

Grand Population: Reflecting the numerous Russian population and the huge armies made of it throughout the history, a Russian player will be ablew to exceed the game's max population cap by 25%.

Italy

Italy (or Rome) is a early game civ, having excellent infantry with both strong offensive and defensive stats. It also has good siege and naval capabilities. From the ancient era onwards, the mighty legions are a serious threat to any player.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Roman Republic/Empire

Medieval Era: Italian City States

pre-Modern Era: Italian States

Modern Era: Modern Italy

Bonusses:

Legions: Italian melee infantry gets increased formation bonusses if put in formation.

Imperialism: The Romans, and later, less known, the Venetians, built great Mediterranean empires. Italian players are able to capture enemy units and buildings faster than any other civ.

Balkan

The Balkan faction are good defenders, having the strongest hevay infantry of the game and also strong structures and naval units. They are strong in technological aspects and can reach the higher ages faster than the average civilisation.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Greek Poleis/Hellenistic states

Medieval Era: Byzantine Empire

pre-Modern Era: Serbian kingdom

Modern Era: Modern Greece or Serbia

Bonusses:

Phalanx: Balkan heavy infantry gains a bonus against other infantry, providing them with fair offensive capabilities. Offensive infantry line is non-accessable or a Balkan player.

Philosophy: Ancient Greece is the place where Western science and philosophy originated. Greek produce more knowledge per scholar garrisoned. (knowledge being the ressource to research all technologies)

Persia

Persia has the strongest cavalry in the game as well as good archers. That means they should be mainly used in the earlier ages of the game, where cavaly has the most significance.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Achaemenid Persians

Medieval Era: Sassanid Persians

pre-Modern Era: Choreswm/Safawid/Afghan Persia

Modern Era: Modern Iran

Bonusses:

Wealth: Persian players start off with a bonus amount of every ressource. Special technologies increase wealth acquiring as well.

Horse Breeding: Unlike other civilisations, Persians can capture wild horses and bring them to corrals just like in 0 A.D. Garrisoned horses decrease costs and increase production speed of non-mechanical cavalry units.

Egypt

Egypt is rather defensive, relying on good counter units for enemy offensive units. They are good in a "wall in+build wonder" type of game, since they have good defenses and are bonussed in terms of wonder building.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Pharaonic Egypt

Medieval Era: Arabic Egypt

pre-Modern Era: Arabic Egypt (Mamlukes)

Modern Era: Modern Egypt

Bonusses:

Nile Flood: The fertile soil along the River Nile was utilized by the Egyptians, making them one of the first agraric civilisations and the grain suppliers for the ancient world. Egyptian farms yield more food, and citizens can collect food faster from farms.

Monuments: The ancient Egyptians build arguably some of the greatest monuments ever, most notably the Pyramids and the Sphnix. The later Arabic culture built great mosques and other buildings in Egypt, too. To reflect this great tradition, Egyptian players have access to wonders earlier in the game. They can also build wonders cheaper.

Phoenicia/Spain

They are the greatest seamen and traders in the earlier ages, however, their glory wanes in the later ages when Britain comes into play. Thus, they are strongest around mid-game.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Phoenicians/Carthagenians

Medieval Era: Christian Spain

pre-Modern Era: Reconquered Spain

Modern Era: Modern Spain

Bonusses:

Exploration: Both Phoenicians and Spaniards were great explorers of their time. Phoenicians were the first to surround Africa, while Spain discovered and colonized the New World. In the game, all Spainsh/Phoenician human land and naval units gain a increased LOS.

Trade Masters: Spanish/Phoenician players gain a increased income from all trading routes.

Turkey

Turkey is something of an all-around faction, with focus on siege and cavalry. They are best used around midgame, where their units are at their strongest.

Representation:

Ancient Era: Hittite/Assyrian Empire (Assyrian in the Classical Age; I simply needed another civ to represent and Assyrians fit in with the timeline of the rivalling Egyptian faction)

Medieval Era: Seljuk Turks

pre-Modern Era: Ottoman Turks

Modern Era: Modern Turkey

Bonusses:

Siege Masters: The Ottoman Turks were very good at besieging cities. Thus, gunpowder siege units gain additional damage bonus against all structures.

Multiculturalism: Asia Minor was always made up of many different cultures. At its peak, the Ottoman Empire consisted of many nationalities and made use of that. This is reflected in the mod by having research and training speed at its maximum already in newly conquered provinces. (for you make better use of the local population's skills)

Edited October 28, 2010 by SMST

[oshron]

okay, time for some attempted collaboration

b)Lose the just-combat-focus

An issue of complaining in most RTS games is the strong focus on comabt and the neglection of any other strategical elements to actually win the game. Even 0AD follows the (questionable) philosophy of setting war above anything else and making economics, diplomatics or technology merely helpers to the player's army. In my game, these possibilites will be on par with warfare, allowing the player to win by economic pressure put on the enemy by taking strategic ressources or disrupting trade routes, by trade territories, units or ressouces for an alliance or corner him diplomatically by damaging his renown in the gameworld, and by being superior in culture or technology. This will be allowed by the economical system featuring strategic ressources, the more sophisticated diplomatics system and the choice based tech tree.

military should still be the more important focus, but yes, there should be a fair amount of non-military as well. i think forcing an economic or diplomatic victory should be lower on the list of priorities. however, i came up with an idea for in-game diplomacy: the Embassy building and its accompanying Messenger unit, a diplomatic unit. acting in much the same way as a merchant unit and a market, sending a messenger between your embassy and another player's civic center allows you to form an alliance with them. i also had the idea that forming an alliance allows players to share unique units (ex: if an american player allied with an aztec player, the american would receive aztec jaguar warriors while the aztec would receive american minutemen)

There are six gatherable ressources in the game.

Food

Use: To train citizens and most other human units

Acquired by: Hunting, farming, fishing, herding

Wood

Use: Construction of all buildings and pre-industrial naval and siege units

Acquired by: Woodchopping, you guessed it

Metal

Use: Construction of all mechanical units and attack units (sword infantry, cavalry)

Acquired by: Mining

Oil

Use: Training of all industrial mechanical units (tanks, naval and air units, artillery)

Acquired by: Derricks, maybe off-shore platforms too

All of the former ressources are gathered by citizens, for the last two there will be special economical units.

Gold

Use: Barter for other ressources at the market, train support and defensive military units and research upgrades

Acquired by: Taxation (of territories or civic centres), Trading (Land or Sea)

Knowledge

Use: Research all technologies and age upgrades

Acquired by: Scholars garrisoned in Universities

what i personally came up with for resources are:

Food (for all non-mechanical units), Wood (for most or all buildings and many earlier mechanical units, ie ships and siege), Stone (for many buildings and all defensive structures), Gold (to pay soldiers or fund research), Iron (to make weapons; i actually dont like how 0ad merged gold and iron into one resource, but this could be recombined into just Metal again to reduce complexity), Energy (instead of just Oil; this encompasses all forms of energy including electricity from all sources), Uranium (for nuclear units and some later vehicles and mechanical weapons), and Khrusionite (a fictional resource intended for use with futuristic weapons)

then again, the eight that i have could be simplified into six: Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy, and Uranium. i REALLY dont like the concept of "knowledge" or "tech points" as resources. maybe im just old fashioned that way.

Strategical ressources

This is a concept that I borrowed from Rise of Nations, where this kind of ressources is called "rare ressources". However, they will be much more of a focus here. Strategical ressources are not to be gathered, instead giving you a bonus by holding them (by taking control of the territory that they're in) The resource types vary from those which give you economic or trade boni, reduces costs and increase efficiency of your units, even giving you access of completely new unit lines. An example for the last type is Uranium, which grants the player who controls it (and his allies) access to nuclear weapons. Holding a strategical ressource can decide the outcome of a game and they will surely be a reason for both battles and alliances.

i personally dont like this idea so much. im not sure why, but i just dont

Unit types

I want to keep the unit line of the game rather streamline, meaning that there are not too much unit types of which each performs a distinct role on the battlefield and that any unit type can be evolved further in all ages and that there are no dead ends to unit lines. The basic classes are inspired by 0AD.

Infantry

Sword/Main Infantry

Spear/AT Infantry

Skirmish/Commando Infantry

Archers/Marksmen/MG-Infantry

Cavalry

Light Cavalry/Tank

Heavy Cavalry/Tank

Missile Cavalry/Tank Destroyers

Siege

There will be the classic units like catapults, rams, cannons and artillery. There might be some more special, civ unique siege units, too.

Navy

Light ship

Medium ship

Heavy ship

Submarine

Aircraft

Needs yet to be decided. The basic units, such as fighters, fighter/bombers and bombers will appear, of course.

i came up with alot of unit types and lines of advancement, too, but there are WAAY too many for me to list right now

Ages

There will be 16 ages in PG:E who cover the whole history of mankind. Rather than having generic names for all civilisations, the ages will have specific names for each civilisation, at least in the earlier ages. These hstorical ages will be mirrored in the unit roster of the particular faction and age.

The 16 ages are divided in 4 "eras" which contain a bunch of ages. At the end of each era, the factions will be able to develop their super units and unique technologies.

Although in the final game each civ will hve unique names for ages, here are some generic names to give you an rough idea how I divided the history into the ages. The names in italics are the (WIP) age names for the Greek/Italian faction.

Ancient era:

Paleolithic (Stone) Age

Neolithic (Tool) Age

Copper Age Archaic Age

Bronze Age Classical Age

Iron Age Hellenistic Age

Medieval era:

Dark Age Early Byzantine Age

Medieval Age High Byzantine Age

Renaissance Age Florentinian Age

Colonial Age Venecian Age

Imperial Age Napoleonic Age

Industrial era:

Industrial Age

World War I

World War II

Modern era:

Atomic Age

Information Age

Robotic Age

You advance through the ages by researching technologies. To advance from one age to the next, you have to research each of the four innovations (technologies that are specific to that age and resemble great developments, for example the invention of Letters or Gunpowder) of the current age on the one, and four other technologies, which you can choose freely, of the other side. Then the button to advance into the next epoch becomes active in your Civic Centre.

non-generic names sounds like a cool idea to me. but i can see some complications arising for that, like a feudal era for the japanese extended further than those of other cultures.

i myself split the time period up into Eras, which can be further divided into Ages (ex: Modern Era: Information Age and Modern Era: Digital Age), and these are in turn informally divided into Periods (for the one im working on, "Colonial Period" "Early Modern Period" "Modern Period" and "Future Period"

here's the changes i would make to your time periods, going on my template and just on what you put down here (my own ideas would require more research):

ANCIENT/MEDIEVAL PERIOD

-- Prehistoric Era: Stone Age

-- Prehistoric Era: Copper Age

-- Classical Era: Bronze Age

-- Classical Era: Iron Age

-- Medieval Era

COLONIAL PERIOD (from here on are my own time periods)

-- Renaissance Era

-- Exploration Era

-- Colonial Era

-- Enlightenment Era

PRE-MODERN PERIOD

-- Revolutionary Era

-- Victorian Era: Gilded Age

-- Victorian Era: Industrial Age

-- Victorian Era: Imperial Age

MODERN PERIOD

-- World War I Era

-- Interwar Era

-- World War II Era

-- Cold War Era: Space Age

-- Cold War Era: Atomic Age

-- Modern Era: Information Age

-- Modern Era: Digital Age

FUTURE PERIOD

-- Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age

-- Post-modern Era: Cybernetic Age

-- Khrusionitic Era: Global Age

-- Khrusionitic Era: Interplanetary Age*

-- Khrusionitic Era: Interstellar Age*

*these two only come up in an expansion pack

advancing by researching technologies sounds cool, but i dont think it should be the only requirement; you should also need a large amount of resources and certain buildings

Factions

French faction

Strong land units. Bonussed in terms of leadership and diplomacy. Great cavalry.

British faction

Very strong navy in the late game. Bonussed on acquiring territorries. Good defensive infantry.

Greek/Italian faction (Ancient Greece -> Byzantines -> Italy)

Strong defensive infantry which can also perform offensive duties. Lacking conventional offensive infantry. Strong navy. Bonussed in terms of cultural development.

Roman/German faction

Powerful all-around faction. Bonussed in terms of organisation. No real area of expertise, though.

Russian faction

Great light units. Bonussed in terms of territory controlling and defending as well as in swift surprise attacks. Very hard to attack due to their "Russian winter" attrition damage bonus.

Persian/Iranian faction

Powerhouse civ. Bonussed in acquiring wealth. (trade and taxation) Very strong cavalry as well as good archers.

Egyptian faction

Great anti-cavalry cavalry units. (camelry) Bonussed in terms of construction and farming.

Phoenician/Spanish faction

Great navy. Bonussed in terms of exploration and sea trade.

Turkish faction (may change into modern day's Israel in Modern Age)

Strong cavalry. Bonussed in terms of siege and conquering enemy's buildings.

X-Pack:

American faction (USA)

Powerful all-around, but most effective in the late game, where it can act as a real superpower. As with Romans/Germans, no really area of expertise.

Aztec faction

Very strong infantry. Universities are locked, instead, knowledge is acquired by killing enemy soldiers. Thus, they are a aggressive, fast-forward civ. Lacking cavalry.

Incan faction

I sincerly lack a profile for these. Lacking cavalry.

Bantu faction

As with the Incans, I have no real profile for them yet. They might be bonussed in terms of herding, though.

Chinese faction

Another powerhouse faction. Every Chinese citizen only counts 1/2 to population, which makes a Chinese player able to either build much citizens to boom or mass a greater army within the free population space. Bonussed in terms of cultural development.

Japanese faction

Strong offensive units on land, sea and air. Weak defenses. Very hard to win over or to successfully convert, though.

Korean faction

Defensive faction. Strong defensive structures and units, especially defensive naval units. A "chokepoint" strategy works very well with these guys for they gain a greater height bonus than any other civ. Bonussed in terms of defense.

Hunnic/Mongolian faction

They are not restricted by territorrial bonusses (such as build time penalties or attrition damage), but neither do they gain any advantages of holding territorries that other civs get. Very strong missile cavalry. Lacking infantry. Great mobility because they can pack and move their buildings over the map.

Indian faction

Peaceful civ. Bonussed in terms of religion, diplomacy and technology. Very strong defensive war elephant units. (the only civ that gets a regular war elephant line - Persia and Phoenicia get unique elephant units in the ancient period, though)

some of these civ advancements are cool, and are some that i wouldnt think of, but others i dont agree with so much. what i had in mind was to have several Civilization Traits that cover the whole of their time period even if its just in reference to one part of their history (for example, my Mongol faction is a cavalry oriented civilization intended to refer to their use of horses, but their cavalry bonuses also affect tanks later on). i also think there should be more, including some alternative history factions. it should also all add up to a nice even-looking number

for some ideas, im gonna combine your ideas and mine right here and now with whatever i already know of:

Austro-Hungarians (Huns/Magyars >> Habsburgs >> Austria-Hungary >> Austria/Hungary)

Aztecs

Balkans (Greeks >> Byzantines/Bulgarians >> Greeks/Bulgarians/Serbians)

Brazilians

British (Celts >> English >> Imperial British)

Chinese (various ancient dynasties >> Ming Chinese >> Qing Chinese >> PRC)

Confederates (Vinlanders >> United Americans >> Southern/Confederate Americans)

Dutch

French

Germans (Teutons >> Prussians >> Imperial Germans >> Federal Germans)

Indians (Mauryans >> Mughals >> Colonial India >> Modern Indians)

Iranians

Irish

Israelis (Hebrews >> Judaeans >> European Jews >> Israel))

Italians

Japanese

Koreans

Mongols

Nazis

Russians (Slavs >> Imperial Russians >> Federal Russians)

Saracens

Scandinavians

Sioux

Songhai

Soviets

Spanish

Turks

Vietnamese

Yankees (Vinlanders >> United Americans >> Northern Americans)

Zulu

again, these are just off teh top of my head

[SMST]

Well, I just think that "RTS" should not mean "war game" (of which there are honestly enough) but rather use also different strategical means. Of course, this needs to be worked out more closely.

Your embassy idea sounds good. I actually came up with a "mercenary" concept that would enable you to hise mercenaries from allied or neutral factions for gold.

The idea of having Energy is quite tempting, but how would this work, you have an oil derrick and drain Energy directly from it?

Uranium was something that i skipped from one of my earlier drafts, because it was not worth it to have a extra gatherable ressource for maybe 3 or 4 unit types.

What is Khrusionite and what does it do? (and how is it pronounced? )

I would go for your simplified ressource roster, and have Uranium replaced with Gold, which leaves us with Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy and Gold. (If you don't like Knowledge - which I think is a great way to measure the abstract values of the player's civ -, Gold could be the "research ressource")

The strategical ressources were something I came up with after trynig out the roN demo. Though they were not very good implemented in RoN, I like the concept because it adds a more strategic level to economy. (see my posts in the XVIII century mod thread)

The unit types should not be much more - in my draft, ever unit performs a distinct role on the battlefield.

The Japanese Feudal Era could be split up into Ashikaga, Sengoku, Edo and Tokugawa period. It would require a lot more research, though.

ANCIENT PERIOD

-- Prehistoric Era: Paleolithic Age

-- Prehistoric Era: Neolithic Age

-- Ancient Era: Copper Age

-- Classical Era: Bronze Age

-- Classical Era: Iron Age

MEDIEVAL PERIOD

-- Medieval Era: Dark Age

-- Medieval Era: Feudal Age

-- Medieval Era: Renaissance Era

COLONIAL PERIOD (from here on are my own time periods)

-- Exploration Era ?

-- Colonial Era

-- Enlightenment EraAbsolutism?

PRE-MODERN PERIOD

-- Revolutionary EraNapoleon?

-- Victorian Era: Gilded Age ?

-- Victorian Era: Industrial Age

-- Victorian Era: Imperial Age

Does it have to be "Victorian Age"?

MODERN PERIOD

-- World War I Era

-- Interwar Era ?

-- World War II Era

-- Cold War Era: Space Age?

-- Cold War Era: Atomic Age

-- Modern Era: Information Age

-- Modern Era: Digital Age

Differences between Info and Digital?

FUTURE PERIOD

-- Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age

-- Post-modern Era: Cybernetic Age

-- Khrusionitic Era: Global Age

-- Khrusionitic Era: Interplanetary Age*

-- Khrusionitic Era: Interstellar Age*

some of these civ advancements are cool, and are some that i wouldnt think of, but others i dont agree with so much.

Specify.

what i had in mind was to have several Civilization Traits that cover the whole of their time period even if its just in reference to one part of their history (for example, my Mongol faction is a cavalry oriented civilization intended to refer to their use of horses, but their cavalry bonuses also affect tanks later on). i also think there should be more, including some alternative history factions. it should also all add up to a nice even-looking number

18 is a nice, even looking number. And I think there are too many factions in your draft, while there are some important ones missing (Eqypt, Phoenicia) and some just don't go into a "all-ages" game (Scandinavia, Ireland, Israel (medieval period?), Dutch) . What I would not have is the alternative history faction, this does just not stick with my concept. Although your implementation of a Balcan and Italian faction may work better than my way to do it. And the Austro-Hungarian and your other African faction are definitely something to consider.

But with civ traits, I did not have the intention that they should change. They could just be expanded more and more by unique techs with the ages.

[oshron]

Your embassy idea sounds good. I actually came up with a "mercenary" concept that would enable you to hise mercenaries from allied or neutral factions for gold.

thanks; i got the idea while reading an alternative history book in which the US was allied with Germany against an alliance of Confederates, British-Canadians, and French

The idea of having Energy is quite tempting, but how would this work, you have an oil derrick and drain Energy directly from it?

Uranium was something that i skipped from one of my earlier drafts, because it was not worth it to have a extra gatherable ressource for maybe 3 or 4 unit types.

What is Khrusionite and what does it do? (and how is it pronounced? )

I would go for your simplified ressource roster, and have Uranium replaced with Gold, which leaves us with Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy and Gold. (If you don't like Knowledge - which I think is a great way to measure the abstract values of the player's civ -, Gold could be the "research ressource")

The strategical ressources were something I came up with after trynig out the roN demo. Though they were not very good implemented in RoN, I like the concept because it adds a more strategic level to economy. (see my posts in the XVIII century mod thread)

in this order:

-- a more generic "Energy" is just because energy in real life isnt ONLY derived from oil, though it IS a major source. its kindof intended for the future period when green energy would become available, and some other methods of gathering energy aside from oil come into play, such as windmills and solar plants (though these would at least at first be less effective than oil; i had a kind of end-of-the-world thing in mind where resources are almost completely depleted and you have to resort to harvesting plankton and using wind energy and the like to feed and power your civilization)

-- i was planning for uranium to be in there to kind of limit how many nuclear units a player could get. there would be definitive limits on the number of atomic bombers and the like a player could get, but having uranium as well as gold, iron, and energy required for it would also restrict how many one could make. if you remember in empire earth, atomic bomber planes in that only cost 700 gold and iron; you could EASILY mass produce them. other units i had ideas for the use of uranium would be nuclear subs (which would be the advanced form of initial submarines) and later on vehicles such as other ships, possibly some mecha and unique units in the futuristic portions of the game, and space ships

-- "Khrusionite" (KROO-tion-ITE) is based on the also fictional mineral from Code Geass called Sakuradite that is the primary means by which their advanced technology (mecha) are created. its supposed to be something like philosopher's stone in properties and i simply changed the name to the more credible-sounding Khrusionite because, in all honesty, "Sakuradite" sounds REALLY lame. in retrospect, maybe khrusionite IS a step too far in terms of resources

-- my intent with having seperate gold and iron(or another generic metal; maybe the name could change as you advance, say, from copper to tin to bronze and so on?) was that gold is used to pay soldiers and to fund research or the creation of vehicles (so there would be gold requirements for most or all vehicles but, for simplicity, not for all infantry, at least not for Line Infantry) while iron/metal is used to make the weapons themselves, to make the swords and armor and bullets of infantry and to create the "shells" of vehicles like tanks and planes

-- for strategic resources, i personally think that would just complicate regular gameplay, but perhaps there could be a special game mode for that instead where, depending on the time period of the game at the time, you have to control different locations with different resources, or there could be special resource sites that never run out but disappear after a certain era is reached and must be captured like a building to be exploited, like a special Uranium Mine must be captured by soldiers in order to be exploited by your citizens

The unit types should not be much more - in my draft, ever unit performs a distinct role on the battlefield.

yeah, thats kinda what i was planning, too, several distinct classes which have a major role, though some of these change over time (the Heavy Infantry class, for example, in my modern era one, starts off as a Hand Cannonneer but eventually works his way up to becoming an armor-piercing and later anti-tank soldier, the Bazooka; if we go back further, his role would be different at the beginning but preferrably advance onwards to the anti-tank soldier)

18 is a nice, even looking number. And I think there are too many factions in your draft, while there are some important ones missing (Eqypt, Phoenicia) and some just don't go into a "all-ages" game (Scandinavia, Ireland, Israel (medieval period?), Dutch) . What I would not have is the alternative history faction, this does just not stick with my concept. Although your implementation of a Balcan and Italian faction may work better than my way to do it. And the Austro-Hungarian and your other African faction are definitely something to consider.

the reason some of those mentioned factions are missing is because the one i was planning starts in the renaissance period, and some of them are encompassed in other factions: i was originally planning for egypt to be covered by the turkish(then Ottoman) faction, but now its included in teh Saracen faction instead, and one of their wonders is actually the pyramid of giza in reference to this, even though its much older than the renaissance period

with some of the others, like Israel, though the name is "Israelis" and in specific reference to the modern State of Israel, it actually covers the jewish community as a whole and possibly the conspiracy theory of the jews controlling the world (hey, if the nazis, confederates, and soviets are included, why not?), but especially refers to the times when the jews were forced into ghettos in europe, so there could be some reference to the golem of prague (maybe as a relic or editor-only unit) and almost certainly to the jewish partisan movements of WWII, and one of their heroes is Mordecai Anielewicz, who was a Polish Jew.

i would personally prefer if the alternative history factions were included because, for instance with the nazi and german factions, though they are virtually the same country, land, and people, their ideologies were distinct and it would also allow for different options with their military--for instance, the regular germans could continue using poison gas as a weapon. i was also planning for the military of the german faction to be based on the wehrmacht while the nazi one was specifically based on the SS. with the russian and soviet factions, it the difference between an empire and a communist dictatorship. i also have distinct "Cultural Powers" in mind for alot of them that are more fitting of a specific ideology and time in a country's history than the entire thing (though since it would now cover a much broader span of history, it could be that there are two powers to each faction, one for the ancient-medieval part and the other for the modern-future part): for example, the russian power is "Scorched Earth", which removes beneficial buildings from their land when an enemy captures it, while the soviet power is "Iron Curtain", which prevents enemies from entering soviet territory for a short time. the german power is "Unification" which makes their buildings stronger for each territory while the nazis is "Blitzkrieg" which lets them amass an army and mobilize it very quickly for a brief time

and thanks for the compliments on those other ones i feel africa is underappreciated in RTS games. unfortunately, the only other black african (as opposed to arab african like egypt) faction that i can see deserving of inclusion is Congolese, for the people of the congo region. there could also conceivably be a Masaai and Somalian faction, but i think it would be REALLY hard to differentiate those from the other african factions or from each other

But with civ traits, I did not have the intention that they should change. They could just be expanded more and more by unique techs with the ages.

my thoughts for unique technologies were that each civilization would get one for a period of time that they could research, preferrably stretched out over the course of the game (ie one in teh ancient, one for medieval, one for pre-modern, one for modern, and one for future. or something like that).

with civilization traits, my idea was that these traits would all be available from the very beginning even if they didnt apply at the very beginning (like a trait that benefits planes) or in later times (benefiting horse cavalry, as opposed to vehicle cavalry) and that there would be two for each general time period, one advantage and one disadvantage relevent to that time period. here's another example: in relevence to the earlier parts of the game, the mongols advantages for hunting/gathering and for cavalry/mobility, but they get disadvantages for farming and buildings. though these are specifically in reference to their old nomadic ways, the traits persist to the modern and futuristic portions of the game. they also have the Cultural Power "Hit-and-Run" which makes it so that their ranged cavalry can attack while in motion. though this is in reference only to their old nomadic horse archers, it applies to ALL cavalry, including tanks later in the game

EDIT: and with some of the ancient factions, i think it would be cool if we had them continue into the modern day with their rough equivalents as dominant powers. thats kinda one of the other things with alternative historical factions, like "what if the axis won?" or "what if the soviet union didnt collapse?" or, if you will "what if carthage beat rome and remained in power to this day?". having a phoencian/carthaginian faction would also allow us another african faction, and would especially allow us to focus on a maritime and mercantile one rather than an infantry civilization as would most likely be the case with a congolese or zulu faction

we could also go with another idea that certain factions only become available at a certain time but are available consistently after that (for instance, the roman/italian faction can only be played from, say, the bronze age onwards while the american faction only comes into play at the time when american was first successfully colonized (as the "American Colonists" faction; i also think it would be best to name each faction after their people consistently) which later becomes the "American" faction for the time between their independence and their civil war, at which point that faction becomes known as the "Yankee" faction and then the "Confederate" faction also becomes available. with the scandinavian faction, they would conceivably start off as the "Vikings" but eventually become a more generic "Scandinavian" in reference to all the nordic countries. this would allow for alternative history but also be more accurate. it would also simplify things for both of us but especially for me because i was kinda struggling coming up with pre-modern nazi heroes

Edited July 7, 2010 by oshron

[SMST]

Your energy concept sounds quite nice, but I fear, if so many new ways to get energy are implemented so late in the game, the late game becomes just too overweighed. It would work great for a mod that exclusively contained modern and future period, though.

Oh yes, EE1's nuclear fleets. I feel that needs restriction, too, but it could be done more easily if we simply put a limit of one per civic centre (or even less) as 0AD did with heavy warships.

You mention spaceships. Very difficult. If you don't want do do it in the mock way EE:AoC did it, it becomes very difficult. Remember that the game is not based entirely on inter-planetar stuff like Empire at War or something like that.

The strategic ressources are something that should be tried out, in my opinion. If it really complicates gameplay too much, we can still skip them.

Well, if you want generic metal names, I would suggest "Metal". If we specify Gold, I do not see a problem in that.

Can we go down on those 6 ressources, then? Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy (probably less ways to get it than you suggested - I think of Coal, Oil, and maybe Solar Energy, since this would be the most effective alternative Energy afaik) and Gold (I still think this sould be the "Research Ressource" and should only be used to train very few units) And pleas, reconsider knowledge.

----

I see your point in the alternate history factions, but then again, it may work within your modern-future idea, but not in a all-age game. For example, should you be able to start off as a Nazi in the Paleolithic Age? I think not.

I think we can have two African factions, one the Bantu (Zulu, Massai etc.) and one either your suggested Songhai (of which I know nothin about) or an Nubian/Ethiopian faction.

----

As with civ traits, I think we have a similar understanding. My concept is more streamlined, following the 0AD faction system:

Two Civ Bonusses (active from the very beginning and avilable right until the end)

One Team Bonus (same as above, but applies only if in an Alliance)

Six Special Techs (two for every "Golden Age", that usually appears at the End of one of my "eras": means, two in Iron Age, two either in Medieval or in Imperial Age, two in WWII)

Six Super Units (ultimate upgrades for existing unit lines rather than stand-alone units except for some exceptions, avilablilty same as special Techs)

I even thought of a Mongolian faction similar as you. (well, it is not surprising, after all )

---

Btw, this wasn't meant to be a thread just for me and oshron. You others are welcome to give some feedback as well.

Edited July 7, 2010 by SMST

[oshron]

Your energy concept sounds quite nice, but I fear, if so many new ways to get energy are implemented so late in the game, the late game becomes just too overweighed. It would work great for a mod that exclusively contained modern and future period, though.

the main idea is that these are more last resort that only become available after a certain time period is reached. maybe some other factions will be able to get them earlier, and theyre very inefficient compared to just mining oil, but they would be there

Oh yes, EE1's nuclear fleets. I feel that needs restriction, too, but it could be done more easily if we simply put a limit of one per civic centre (or even less) as 0AD did with heavy warships.

not even that; there should be a limit of just two or three to a player PERIOD as well as huge costs

You mention spaceships. Very difficult. If you don't want do do it in the mock way EE:AoC did it, it becomes very difficult. Remember that the game is not based entirely on inter-planetar stuff like Empire at War or something like that.

making it functionally similar to the regular ships seems like the best way. another thought is that the player could possibly zoom out to a "second level" that counts as space in which space ships can move, but that would be a bit too difficult, methinks. after all, we're not making Spore. but i was also thinking that some other units not originally intended for space could be made, like there could be space-enabled mecha and special nuclear bombers that can be launched from space ships, though there would still be limits, like they cant survive long in the vacuum of space and constantly lose health while out there

the other ideas to go along with space ships was also to include other space elements and not just space ships and a few halfassed units like in EE:AOC, it would also include resources in space like asteroids and comets that can be exploited fro resources and extraterrestrial life rather than just a few new types of terrain and crystals to replace trees. think alien wildlife from star wars or avatar or whatever else you want as what you could expect. i had the idea of letting space-enabled units first becoming available in the cold war portion of the game, but only exploration units: Satellites (in the initial release as scouting units), Space Shuttles (which later become commercial space ships), and Astronauts, and only astronauts can get into space shuttles. imagine an astronaut disembarking from a space shuttle on another body in space from a cold war era civilization and coming across aliens (humans on another planet for simplicity of programming) in their middle ages who fire arrows at him, only for him to return fire with a pistol (just a simple defense mechanism for the game), or possibly disembarking on a jungle moon and encountering alien wildlife. its only in the Interplanetary Age that you would be able to send soldiers and citizens to another planet to exploit its resources and colonize it

Well, if you want generic metal names, I would suggest "Metal". If we specify Gold, I do not see a problem in that.

Can we go down on those 6 ressources, then? Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy (probably less ways to get it than you suggested - I think of Coal, Oil, and maybe Solar Energy, since this would be the most effective alternative Energy afaik) and Gold (I still think this sould be the "Research Ressource" and should only be used to train very few units) And pleas, reconsider knowledge.

i still dont really like the "Research" or "Knowledge" or "Technology" resource. but Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy, and Gold sound good. we can just make the nuclear ones that i devised have their energy cost be their combined former energy and uranium costs; nuclear weaponry should still be expensive as all hell

also, though perhaps inaccurate, by the "post-modern era" all civilizations should get nuclear weaponry, though some get theirs beforehand (like all the countries who were working on nukes in WWII get an atomic bomber in that time period even though only the americans succeeded before the war ended, so that means that there should also be nazi/german WWII nuclear bombers while others who worked on theirs afterwards get theirs in later time period (like the zulu and israelis get theirs sometime in the cold war era). all civilizations being able to acquire them is for balance

I see your point in the alternate history factions, but then again, it may work within your modern-future idea, but not in a all-age game. For example, should you be able to start off as a Nazi in the Paleolithic Age? I think not.

I think we can have two African factions, one the Bantu (Zulu, Massai etc.) and one either your suggested Songhai (of which I know nothin about) or an Nubian/Ethiopian faction.

well thats why ive decided to redo mine so that certain civs only become available after a certain time period is achieved. with the nazis, it could perhaps be stretched back a bit further than before they actually rose to power. i once had ideas before that they become available very early based on the "evidence" that they manufactured to support their ideology (ex: a medieval nazi civilization would be the generic "aryans" from before they reportedly became "corrupted" by interbreeding with other peoples while the soviets would be carbon copies of the russians but without references to nobility or empires). but ive decided that it would be better if they became available only when they historically appeared (and not just when they came to power, ie "American Colonies")

As with civ traits, I think we have a similar understanding. My concept is more streamlined, following the 0AD faction system:

Two Civ Bonusses (active from the very beginning and avilable right until the end)

One Team Bonus (same as above, but applies only if in an Alliance)

Six Special Techs (two for every "Golden Age", that usually appears at the End of one of my "eras": means, two in Iron Age, two either in Medieval or in Imperial Age, two in WWII)

Six Super Units (ultimate upgrades for existing unit lines rather than stand-alone units except for some exceptions, avilablilty same as special Techs)

what i had thought (with the narrower modern parts) was that there would be one advantage and one disadvantage for each "Period" of the game relevent to that people's history (as i mentioned before) even though they apply to that faction through the entire game. i think there should be just one unique tech available at any time during each period (and possibly available from then on if it is applicable, like a german "Unrestricted Submarine Warfare" tech). as for unique units, i again had it divided into spans of time, usually related to how many spans of 100 years or so and then applied to the eras in the game, but that wont be the case now that it goes for a longer period of time. what i had for unique units was that there were a total of 8 (remember, this is for a narrower modern period): the first for the Renaissance/Exploration/Colonial Eras, then for the Enlightenment/Revolutionary, then for the Victorian, the "World War" period (WWI, Interwar, and WWII), the Cold War, the Modern, then the future (Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age onwards), and then the eighth is the "filler" unique unit available during any era in the game depending on what else seems to be missing. with the extension backwards in time, there should probably also be additional unique units, but for greater spans of time: one for the ancient period as a whole (because there werent as many technological military achievements as in the modern era), one and another for the medieval period (which could also extend into the renaissance period)

ill also now go over the Periods, Eras, and Ages that i neglected to before:

ANCIENT PERIOD

-- Prehistoric Era: Paleolithic Age

-- Prehistoric Era: Neolithic Age

-- Ancient Era: Copper Age

-- Classical Era: Bronze Age

-- Classical Era: Iron Age

if theres just one Age to an Era, it should just be a single Era with no Age attached (so instead of "Ancient Era: Copper Age" it should probably be "Primitive/Prehistoric/Ancient Era: Stone Age", then ":Copper Age", which then goes on to "Classical Era: Bronze Age" and ":Iron Age"

MEDIEVAL PERIOD

-- Medieval Era: Dark Age

-- Medieval Era: Feudal Age

-- Medieval Era: Renaissance Era

no changes here, but for consistency it should be "Renaissance Age"

COLONIAL PERIOD (from here on are my own time periods)

-- Exploration Era ?

-- Colonial Era

-- Enlightenment EraAbsolutism?

Exploration Era was formerly split up in Columbian and Magellanic, but i decided to combine them. this is the earlier time period at which america is discovered by the europeans. the enlightenment era is kinda there because thats around when america achieved independence

PRE-MODERN PERIOD

-- Revolutionary EraNapoleon?

-- Victorian Era: Gilded Age ?

-- Victorian Era: Industrial Age

-- Victorian Era: Imperial Age

Does it have to be "Victorian Age"?

i DID have a Napoleonic Era preceding the Revolutionary Era but later combined the two. its the "Revolutionary Era" because during that time is when alot of revolutions and rebellions against major powers of the time took place, like the greek war of independence. it starts with the french revolution and goes on to the american civil war

"Victorian" is just the best Era name i could come up with and think it fits the most. the gilded age is kind of intended for teh american civil war, even though its not technically accurate (pretty much the only one of all the eras, though) but perhaps the industrial and imperial could be combined into just Imperial Age. the imperial age is the time immediately preceding WWI and ends in 1914

MODERN PERIOD

-- World War I Era

-- Interwar Era ?

-- World War II Era

-- Cold War Era: Space Age?

-- Cold War Era: Atomic Age

-- Modern Era: Information Age

-- Modern Era: Digital Age

Differences between Info and Digital?

the interwar era is underappreciated i think. during this time is when a good portion of new units come into play and is also when the nazis and alot of other fascist countries rose to power, like spain and italy, and also when the soviet union arose (for the game, though, i think the soviets should come into play when the bolsheviks were formed). its also the depression era. i hate how in empire earth that time period is just skipped over to go directly from WWI to WWII

the space age is in reference to the space race. i know its a bit confusing. this is also the era when satellites become available

i cant really think of any real differences between the information and digital culturally speaking, but the dating is from 1989-2012 for the information and 2012-2039 for the digital. its in reference to a nostradamus prediction of a 27 year long war beginning in 2012 which. the digital is basically just the major departure from actual history to fictional future (though some futuristic mecha become available to a few civilizations as early as the information age; theres forbidden classes in my plans, too, so not all civilizations get mecha early on)

FUTURE PERIOD

-- Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age

-- Post-modern Era: Cybernetic Age

-- Khrusionitic Era: Global Age

-- Khrusionitic Era: Interplanetary Age*

-- Khrusionitic Era: Interstellar Age*

i see that you had no objections or question here. ill clarify anyway in case you werent sure. the synthetic age is when artificial weaponry and genetic engineering come into play (hence synthetic). plus, it sounds much better than the original name, "Mechanized Age".

the cybernetic age is in reference to Ghost in the Shell. this age is when soldiers would be further subdivided into "Prosthetic/Cyborg" and "Flesh-and-Blood" groups. prosthetic units would have more armor and health but be more expensive. its possible that the units could be individually upgraded into prosthetic soldiers, but it would be expensive to do so. these wouldnt be obvious cyborgs like the terminator or sergei molotov from EE1, they would still look virtually the same but would just have more health and armor and no longer be slowed by weather, and but graphically they would now bleed oil or some other liquid besides blood when shot and, in some cases, possibly explode upon death

since khrusionite is no longer a resource, ill probably change the name to "Futuristic Era". in the initial release, since theres only one Age to the Futuristic Era, it wont have the subtitling of "Global Age" but it gets that in the expansion when the Interplanetary and Interstellar Ages are brought into the mix. the major intent here is that, ideally, the Global Age would be when the world is united under one banner and nationality, whether it be american, british, nazi, chinese, or whatever. the interplanetary age would be like in cowboy bebop when the civilization further expands to other planets in the solar system. this goes on for a few hundred years and then goes on to the interstellar age when they now inhabit many different star systems instead of just their native one. there could also possibly be "false factions" like in my mythology idea to simulate different alien races, ideally one for each civilization and preferrably of original design. ill go into detail on false factions later.

btw, im actually doing a bit of research, surprisingly, with the game Spore to figure out what some of the systems around Earth's are for a seperate project, but it would work here, too

...i seem to have lost my train of thought

[oshron]

hey

ive been doing a bit more work into my personal project (from now on in this thread, ill be referring to it by name, Atlas, for simplicity). im working out some of the units right now and have only just finished the ones for the first era, the renaissance. ill gladly share them with you after im completely done with them. a fair amount of them predate the renaissance but were in use at the time

i also have the idea of "maximum extent" meaning that some units are only available for a certain amount of time to a civilization as well as there being forbidden classes. for example, the Hand Cannonneer unit ive devised is available from the Renaissance to the Victorian Era: Industrial Age (approx. 1870 - 1890), but for most civilizations it can upgrade into Grenadier earlier than that. for some civilizations, the grenadier wont be available until later than the Colonial Era (when it first becomes available in Atlas) or at all, so those civilizations can continue to use the Hand Cannonneer until the next stage of development, if there is one at all. this would probably apply to some far eastern civilizations like the chinese and then upgrade to the third in the Heavy Infantry line, the AP (Armor-Piercing) Rifleman

oh, another thing i have in mind for Atlas is further alternative history in which some animals dont become extinct, as in some recently extinct animals are available in the editor, ie dodos, moas, tasmanian tigers, quaggas, and the like. i was also planning to make it so that dinosaurs and other prehistoric life are in there as well. its for ANOTHER little project where i had the idea to recreate King Kong or Jurassic Park in the game, or to enact an alternative zoology idea concerning the americas and the bering land bridge

i think ultimately your Pyrogenesis and my Atlas will be seperate, but we should still collaborate and brainstorm; id be more than willing to help you out wherever youd need it

EDIT: okay, here's the renaissance and pre-renaissance units. feel free to use these to springboard your own ideas:

Archer (generic bowman, light infantry)

Battering Ram (wooden siege weapon)

Camel Archer (bow-wielding man on a camel, camel & ranged cavalry; this is basically meant for societies that mostly used camels instead of horses)

Camel Cavalry (a man with various melee weapons on a camel, camel & melee cavalry; fills the functions of both light and heavy horses from western cultures, all camels have bonuses vs. horses)

Cannon (the earliest gunpowder siege weapon, siege gun; cant fire over obstacles)

Catapult (wooden layover from the middle ages, wooden siege & artillery)

Citizen (backbone economic unit, comes in male and female varieties)

Fishing Ship (backbone naval economic)

Galleon (first warship, wooden warship & "cruiser"; general-purpose warship and progenitor of the cruiser line of warships)

Halberdier (polearm infantry, medium & mid-range infantry; progenitor of the rapid-firing infantry units like the machine gun)

Hand Cannonneer (first gunpowder foot soldier, heavy infantry; progenitor of the armor-piercing infantry units)

Heavy Cavalry (armored melee cavalry, horse & melee cavalry; this would be a unit like a knight or cataphract and later upgrades into a dragoon)

Holy Man (generic religious unit; this games version of a Priest is different for each civilization, like the italians would have a catholic priest while the israelis would have a rabbi; these would ideally change as you go through the ages, like for Pyrogenesis a british Holy Man would start as a druid and then become a catholic priest and finally a protestant monk, or the like)

Horse Archer (generic ranged cavalry)

Landing Craft (special canoe unit that can be trained and deployed from warships to land troops; realistically, a modern warship would have to properly dock at a Shipyard to let off troops, so Landing Craft let soldiers and citizens off at any shore where they do not hold a shipyard. think D-Day)

Light Cavalry (virtually the same as heavy cavalry but without the extra armor)

Merchant & Merchant Ship (generic trade units; Merchants will ideally become Cargo Trucks later on)

Messenger (diplomat)

Militia (generic emergency soldier for when your town is being overrun. think Red Dawn)

Skirmisher (javelin-throwing light infantry, later becomes a light rifleman)

Swordsman (initial line infantry; it doesnt necessarily have to be a sword and can vary with each civilization, so it could be a club or an axe or something along those lines)

Trebuchet (standalone wooden siege that operates virtually the same as in AOK)

War Canoe ("skirmishing" warship)

Whaling Boat (early whaling ship available to some cultures; whaling becomes widely available in the Victorian Era: Gilded Age)

EDIT 2: also, upon further thought on the subject, maybe a few strategic resources wouldnt be too bad an idea, but here's another similar idea. instead of capturing, say, a uranium deposit and having that allow nuclear weaponry, there could instead be special, VERY expensive buildings that you must build in order to enable certain units. for instance, a building representing a nuclear program would be required to enable nuclear weapons. there would certainly have to be other types, but nuclear is the only one that comes to mind at the moment

Edited July 10, 2010 by oshron

[SMST]

Sorry that I didn't respond for a while, but I was a busy last week ...

the other ideas to go along with space ships was also to include other space elements and not just space ships and a few halfassed units like in EE:AOC, it would also include resources in space like asteroids and comets that can be exploited fro resources and extraterrestrial life rather than just a few new types of terrain and crystals to replace trees. think alien wildlife from star wars or avatar or whatever else you want as what you could expect. i had the idea of letting space-enabled units first becoming available in the cold war portion of the game, but only exploration units: Satellites (in the initial release as scouting units), Space Shuttles (which later become commercial space ships), and Astronauts, and only astronauts can get into space shuttles. imagine an astronaut disembarking from a space shuttle on another body in space from a cold war era civilization and coming across aliens (humans on another planet for simplicity of programming) in their middle ages who fire arrows at him, only for him to return fire with a pistol (just a simple defense mechanism for the game), or possibly disembarking on a jungle moon and encountering alien wildlife. its only in the Interplanetary Age that you would be able to send soldiers and citizens to another planet to exploit its resources and colonize it

That would as well make an entire extra game. It sounds very interesting, though.

i still dont really like the "Research" or "Knowledge" or "Technology" resource. but Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy, and Gold sound good. we can just make the nuclear ones that i devised have their energy cost be their combined former energy and uranium costs; nuclear weaponry should still be expensive as all hell

In my draft, Nuclear Weaponry costed gold (to represent the immense funds) and oil/energy. (well, to represent the energy needed)

Knowledge was an interesting idea, I thought, to follow my concept on losing the combat focus. With Knowledge and Gold, I had two ressources that were exclusively civilian (though Gold may be used to hire mercenaries and train defensive units, its primarily use would be funding research and training support units as well as trading on markets) Then again, I wanted to skip the dull fact that I have to pay food or metal to advance to the next age ...

also, though perhaps inaccurate, by the "post-modern era" all civilizations should get nuclear weaponry, though some get theirs beforehand (like all the countries who were working on nukes in WWII get an atomic bomber in that time period even though only the americans succeeded before the war ended, so that means that there should also be nazi/german WWII nuclear bombers while others who worked on theirs afterwards get theirs in later time period (like the zulu and israelis get theirs sometime in the cold war era). all civilizations being able to acquire them is for balance

Yeah, I came to a similar conclusion. Nuclear power is nothing to balance so easily.

well thats why ive decided to redo mine so that certain civs only become available after a certain time period is achieved. with the nazis, it could perhaps be stretched back a bit further than before they actually rose to power. i once had ideas before that they become available very early based on the "evidence" that they manufactured to support their ideology (ex: a medieval nazi civilization would be the generic "aryans" from before they reportedly became "corrupted" by interbreeding with other peoples while the soviets would be carbon copies of the russians but without references to nobility or empires). but ive decided that it would be better if they became available only when they historically appeared (and not just when they came to power, ie "American Colonies")

Being a German, all that NS-stuff is a bit sensitive for me. I do not want to spread the stupid theory that there was that Aryan Urvolk.

For the age stuff, I think it is too "detailed" in the modern ages (naturally, since you planned it that way) while it lacks detail in the ancient periods. I like your period/era/age idea, though, since it would allow for a better structuring of the ages.

ive been doing a bit more work into my personal project (from now on in this thread, ill be referring to it by name, Atlas, for simplicity). im working out some of the units right now and have only just finished the ones for the first era, the renaissance. ill gladly share them with you after im completely done with them. a fair amount of them predate the renaissance but were in use at the time

I'll comment some of them:

Camel Archer (bow-wielding man on a camel, camel & ranged cavalry; this is basically meant for societies that mostly used camels instead of horses)

Camel Cavalry (a man with various melee weapons on a camel, camel & melee cavalry; fills the functions of both light and heavy horses from western cultures, all camels have bonuses vs. horses)

In PG:E, the camelry unit line is unique to the Egyptians and replaces usual light cavalry there. Melee only, though. Function is much the same, but instead of having specific damage bonusses aganist other cavalry, their anti-cavalry function is somewhat defensive, slowing down movement and attack speed for all non-camelry cavalry units nearby.

Galleon (first warship, wooden warship & "cruiser"; general-purpose warship and progenitor of the cruiser line of warships)

This would be classified as "Medium Warship" in my unit roster.

Halberdier (polearm infantry, medium & mid-range infantry; progenitor of the rapid-firing infantry units like the machine gun)

Hand Cannonneer (first gunpowder foot soldier, heavy infantry; progenitor of the armor-piercing infantry units)

In my draft, spearmen will ultimately evolve to grenadeers and ultimately into armour-piercing infantry because of their anti-cavalry (anti-tank) role.

Holy Man (generic religious unit; this games version of a Priest is different for each civilization, like the italians would have a catholic priest while the israelis would have a rabbi; these would ideally change as you go through the ages, like for Pyrogenesis a british Holy Man would start as a druid and then become a catholic priest and finally a protestant monk, or the like)

That kind of evolvement could also go with various religious technologies (for example, research "Christianity" and all druids turn to pre-catholic priests; along with several changes due to the new religious system)

Similar things could be done with political systems: since 0 AD's tech tree is choice-based, it would allow us to make a choice between authoritarian and liberal systems. Each of them come with several bonusses (perhaps even units), but also disatvantages. For example, all things go more quickly in authoritarian systems (ressources collected faster, units trained faster etc.) but everything is more expensive and the overall morale is not as high as it could get in liberal systems. These two branches could, of course, split up in several sub-branches (monarch/dictatorship, democracy/socialism/capitalism etc.)

Landing Craft (special canoe unit that can be trained and deployed from warships to land troops; realistically, a modern warship would have to properly dock at a Shipyard to let off troops, so Landing Craft let soldiers and citizens off at any shore where they do not hold a shipyard. think D-Day)

A specified landing craft is trainable in my draft from the Industrial Age onwards. Your idea of other warships being able to just deploy troops on already conquered ground sounds interesting.

Messenger (diplomat)

This would go as one with your embassy idea, right? My diplomatic system is actually based around "favor", some kind of indicator of the opinion a player has of you. Sending a messenger forth and back between two embassies would generate favor over time, allowing the alliance to endure. (You maybe could even capture messengers if you want to blackmail your enemies) What do you think?

Then again, this feature would be kind of useless in multiplayer games, where all the diplomatic action goes between players.

Militia (generic emergency soldier for when your town is being overrun. think Red Dawn)

The Militia units are another unit line that is unique in my draft, in this case to the French who can turn citizens into these units for a price. (similar to your Habsburg conscription idea) The units are a spin-off of 0AD's Slinger class - a unit that has no particular advantages against any other class but in return is also countered by none. They would only be applicable in the player's own territory.

Swordsman (initial line infantry; it doesnt necessarily have to be a sword and can vary with each civilization, so it could be a club or an axe or something along those lines)

Yeah, when I wrote "swordsman" above, it included also all form of other shock weapons. Housecarls, Hittite infantry (axes) and Jaguar Warriors (mahaquitl or however it's spelled) go along here too.

War Canoe ("skirmishing" warship)

Light Warship, I think, it is in PG:E. They would be destroyers later on.

Whaling Boat (early whaling ship available to some cultures; whaling becomes widely available in the Victorian Era: Gilded Age)

I don't know if a extra whaling boat is really neccessary. I know that it requires special ships in reality to hunt down whales, but for the purpose of the game I think the normal fishing boats would do it as well.

EDIT 2: also, upon further thought on the subject, maybe a few strategic resources wouldnt be too bad an idea, but here's another similar idea. instead of capturing, say, a uranium deposit and having that allow nuclear weaponry, there could instead be special, VERY expensive buildings that you must build in order to enable certain units. for instance, a building representing a nuclear program would be required to enable nuclear weapons. there would certainly have to be other types, but nuclear is the only one that comes to mind at the moment

Maybe I did not write it down clearly, but gaining benefits of strategical ressources would require a building on top of it in PG:E.

Your special building concept sounds like something really worth to think about as well. Ressources that I thought to be strategical ressources so far are:

- Copper (enabling some upgrades for ancient infantry in Copper Age)

- Iron (same as above, in Iron Age)

- Saltpeter (enables gunpowder infantry from Renaissance onwards)

- Uranium (enables nucleal weaponry)

- Silicium (enables robotic units)

There sould be some amount of civilian strategical ressources as well, I think.

i think ultimately your Pyrogenesis and my Atlas will be seperate, but we should still collaborate and brainstorm; id be more than willing to help you out wherever youd need it

Thanks for your kind offer. I hope I can give you some ideas for your concepts as well.

Yeah, having different projects would make more sense, since your ideas sound very very interesting, your notion of alternative history is just something that doesn't fit into my concept that well.

[oshron]

and its undeniably simpler for me to cover the "modern" period with what i already have i could also later on share some of the units from my mythology idea, which covers the ancient and medieval periods of different cultures

also, i feel i must say this right now: with camel units in Atlas, im not planning to limit it to just the Camel Archer and Camel Cavalry; in the Revolutionary Era, they are both replaced by the Heavy Camelry unit, which technically upgrades from Camel Cavalry but now fills the ranged role of the archer and the power role of the regular camel. basically, gunpowder camelry. this is because camels ARE still used today, even if they arent as important on the battlefield. if nothing else, they can be used as a less-expensive desert alternative to tanks or even serve as aesthetic units for scenarios, like just a military policeman sitting on a camel in the background

EDIT: oh, and another thing i recommend for Pyrogenesis: DONT do what Civilization did for unique units. try to find unique units for that civilizations ENTIRE history instead of just their most famous time, even if you have to go for a stretch or outright fictional units to fill in some of them. and try to make them ABSOLUTELY unique. either make the soldier as unique as you possibly can to differentiate them from a contemporary unit(give them special powers or special bonuses vs. units aside from contemporaries) or make them virtually the same as a later unit but make them available sooner. as an example, one Confederate unique unit i have set down is the CSS H. L. Hunley, the very first submarine to sink ships during a war, which happened to be the American Civil War. as soon as i saw this, i KNEW i had to give the Confederates this early submarine: its an advantage over every other civilization in Atlas.

you should also try to make your unique units be of the same class as another unit. for example, a Samurai should have the same unit class as a Swordsman. with my Yankee faction, based on actual history i learned of while doing research for the Sioux, i decided to make their first unique unit the Indian Scout (which was an actual division of the US Army at one point), which is virtually the same as a Heavy Skirmisher unit except that he has a larger line of sight, moves faster, and is an Invisible unit (that meaning that he can't be seen by the enemy except when he is very near enemy units or buildings; this is one of the more common abilities)

Edited July 10, 2010 by oshron

[SMST]

Where I want to go with unique units is making them upgraded versions of already existing unit lines. For example, you would be Greek and the ultimate Upgrade for the Spear Infantry Line in Ancient Period would be the Pezhetairos or you would be German and your ultimate upgrade for the Heavy Tank would be the Tigerpanzer. (rather than having an extra unit such as in AoK) I am actually not a fan of having special semi-magical unit powers (think EDMW), first, because it takes away the realistic feel of a game, second, because they are often too fiddly to use them in actual gameplay. More "passive powers", like the mentioned extra bonus against other units might work. Also, some of my "ultimate upgrades" are already based on the idea of making a unit aviable earlier, such as the mentioned "Pezhetairos" (the long-ranging sarrissa preceeds the pikemen and halberdiers of later ages) or the Korean "Kobukson" (the beloved turtle-ship, that preceeds later post-industrial iron-clad warships)

By the way, I devised a expanded age system, combining some of your and my ideas. If it turns out requiring too much research and artistic work, however, I may go back to my original draft.

ANCIENT PERIOD:

Prehistoric Era: Paleolithic (Stone) Age (10.000 - 5000 BC)*

Prehistoric Era: Neolithic (Tool) Age (5000 - 3000 BC)*

Ancient Era: Bronze Age (3000 - 1250 BC)

Ancient Era: Iron Age (1250 - 500 BC)

Classical Era: Classical Age (500 - 300 BC)

Classical Era: Hellenistic Age (300 BC - 300 AD)**

MEDIEVAL/PRE-MODERN PERIOD:

Medieval Era: Dark Age (300 - 900 AD)

Medieval Era: Feudal Age (900 - 1400 AD)

? Era: Renaissance Age (1400 - 1500 AD)

? Era: Colonial Age (1500 - 1650 AD)

Enlightenment Era: Enlightenment Age (1650 - 1789 AD)

Enlightenment Era: Revolutionary Age (1789 - 1815 AD)

MODERN PERIOD:

Industrial Era: Industrial Age (1815 - 1871 AD)

Industrial Era: Imperial Age (1871 - 1914 AD)

World War Era: World War I (1914 - 1918 AD)

World War Era: Interwar Age (1918 - 1939 AD)***

World War Era: World War II (1939 - 1945 AD)

Modern Era: Cold War (1945 - 1990 AD)

Modern Era: Modern Age (1990 - 2012 AD)****

* I am not sure whether "Paleolithic" and "Neolithic are too obscure. Perhaps I'll go for Stone and Tool, as AoE did, also as a tribute.

** This will be replaced by an individual age name later on, but "Hellenistic" means to be representative of the ancient empires at their peak. For example, the Roman Faction would be Imperial Rome, the Persian Faction would be Sassanid and the Chinese faction would be the Han Empire.

***I am very unsure about this one. Perhaps it would represent the level of technology the great powers started WWII with, which was, after all, very different from the technology at the end of the war.

**** 2012 is kind of a mock date to end the Modern Period, however, I could see myself following you and adapting Nostradamus' prophecies into the game, which is a pretty neat idea for a source of inspiration.

Edited July 11, 2010 by SMST

[oshron]

Where I want to go with unique units is making them upgraded versions of already existing unit lines. For example, you would be Greek and the ultimate Upgrade for the Spear Infantry Line in Ancient Period would be the Pezhetairos or you would be German and your ultimate upgrade for the Heavy Tank would be the Tigerpanzer. (rather than having an extra unit such as in AoK) I am actually not a fan of having special semi-magical unit powers (think EDMW), first, because it takes away the realistic feel of a game, second, because they are often too fiddly to use them in actual gameplay. More "passive powers", like the mentioned extra bonus against other units might work. Also, some of my "ultimate upgrades" are already based on the idea of making a unit aviable earlier, such as the mentioned "Pezhetairos" (the long-ranging sarrissa preceeds the pikemen and halberdiers of later ages) or the Korean "Kobukson" (the beloved turtle-ship, that preceeds later post-industrial iron-clad warships)

well if you have unit classes (so that the same units are used by all civilizations but with different names and appearances) and forbidden units (so that no one civilization has every unit class), you can certainly have it so that some unit classes are unavailable and a unique unit takes their place

with special powers, what i mainly mean here would be "special attacks" that arent exactly fantastical like in AOM, but provide significant benefits. as i mentioned before, the Yankee unique unit "Indian Scout" is an 'invisible' unit. this would be one of the more common examples of special abilities, and it would go to "spy" type units like ninja or secret police (ie, nazi gestapo) while some regular units have them (snipers, stealth aircraft--whats the point of calling something a stealth bomber if it isnt actually stealthy?). another one i came up with is the ability "Go Incognito" where a unit will disguise itself as an enemy citizen and walk into their town undetected, only to reveal themselves and attack when they are close enough to their target. this would, again, go for such units as gestapo and ninja

as for mentioning the turtle-ship and other such units, you could, as i said before, make them virtually the same as a later unit class, albeit with a unique appearance (the turtle-ship could be the same class as an Ironclad) and have them present for as long as they historically were. this would mean that the koreans would get a unique Ironclad warship earlier than most or all other civilizations. my Confederate CSS H.L. Hunley is another prime example; every other civilization has to wait until WWI before they get proper submarines (which before then are represented by Torpedo Boats but are functionally the same, except for their exposure to surface ships)

By the way, I devised a expanded age system, combining some of your and my ideas. If it turns out requiring too much research and artistic work, however, I may go back to my original draft.

ANCIENT PERIOD:

Prehistoric Era: Paleolithic (Stone) Age (10.000 - 5000 BC)*

Prehistoric Era: Neolithic (Tool) Age (5000 - 3000 BC)*

Ancient Era: Bronze Age (3000 - 1250 BC)

Ancient Era: Iron Age (1250 - 500 BC)

Classical Era: Classical Age (500 - 300 BC)

Classical Era: Hellenistic Age (300 BC - 300 AD)**

MEDIEVAL/PRE-MODERN PERIOD:

Medieval Era: Dark Age (300 - 900 AD)

Medieval Era: Feudal Age (900 - 1400 AD)

? Era: Renaissance Age (1400 - 1500 AD)

? Era: Colonial Age (1500 - 1650 AD)

Enlightenment Era: Enlightenment Age (1650 - 1789 AD)

Enlightenment Era: Revolutionary Age (1789 - 1815 AD)

MODERN PERIOD:

Industrial Era: Industrial Age (1815 - 1871 AD)

Industrial Era: Imperial Age (1871 - 1914 AD)

World War Era: World War I (1914 - 1918 AD)

World War Era: Interwar Age (1918 - 1939 AD)***

World War Era: World War II (1939 - 1945 AD)

Modern Era: Cold War (1945 - 1990 AD)

Modern Era: Modern Age (1990 - 2012 AD)****

* I am not sure whether "Paleolithic" and "Neolithic are too obscure. Perhaps I'll go for Stone and Tool, as AoE did, also as a tribute.

** This will be replaced by an individual age name later on, but "Hellenistic" means to be representative of the ancient empires at their peak. For example, the Roman Faction would be Imperial Rome, the Persian Faction would be Sassanid and the Chinese faction would be the Han Empire.

***I am very unsure about this one. Perhaps it would represent the level of technology the great powers started WWII with, which was, after all, very different from the technology at the end of the war.

**** 2012 is kind of a mock date to end the Modern Period, however, I could see myself following you and adapting Nostradamus' prophecies into the game, which is a pretty neat idea for a source of inspiration.

here's what i would change for your eras here:

ANCIENT PERIOD

1. Prehistoric Era: Stone Age

2. Prehistoric Era: Copper Age (instead of tool age; i think you should probably start around the neolithic instead)

3. Ancient Era: Bronze Age

4. Ancient Era: Iron Age

5. Classical Era

6. Hellenistic Era (you dont always have to have something as an Age with an Era)

PRE-MODERN PERIOD

7. Medieval Era: Dark Age

8. Medieval Era: Feudal Age

9. Renaissance Era (you could extend this to include the Age of Discovery as well, i guess)

10. Colonial Era

11. Enlightenment Era

12. Revolutionary Era

EARLY-MODERN/MODERN PERIOD

13. Industrial Era

14. Imperial Era

15. World War I Era

16. Interwar Era

17. World War II Era

18. Modern Era: Cold War Age OR Cold War Era

19. Modern Era: Information Age OR Modern Era

if you wanted to simplify things a little bit, you COULD just combine the three world war eras into just a collective "World War Era" or "Great War Era"

EDIT: theres a thread on the Historum message board about a "civilization list" that theyre compiling that you could use to get ideas for civilizations. im not sure if youll need to register or not, but heres the link to the thread:

http://www.historum.com/showthread.php?t=14916

Edited July 11, 2010 by oshron

[SMST]

Now that I understand your notion of "special attacks", I see we are on par once more. Though the "Invisibility" trait is nothing unique in PG:E, but a attribute of any Spy unit for any civilisation. Combat units with that trait would make a good unique unit, though.

I still think you should start in the pre-neolithic age because I like the concept of building up your civilisation from the very scratch. As it stands now, even barracks and military units must be researched via innovation!

Your mentioned simplification would only work if there are at least some unit upgrades to represent the military development during the wars.

Otherwise, if I manage to represent the Interwar Era - WWII with additional unit upgrades (but within the same age), this would leave us with 18 Ages, which is a nice, even looking number, as we already know.

The civilisations listed in your link are just too many. I think I will stick with my original concept, maybe adding some additional African or your Austro-Hungarian faction.

Edited July 11, 2010 by SMST

[oshron]

i know theres alot in the link, but that was just to give you ideas in case you felt there were some civs missing

as for stealth units, its not a common trait among regular units. the only ones that have it initially are sniper units (but they have another special trait where they can see and be seen at a distance by other snipers), but it later expands to stealth aircraft and futuristic stealth frigates (taking that term literally ). theres also diving units, ie submarines, that become invisible when theyre completely submerged but are revealed if they are close to an enemy warship (they cant be seen by aircraft) and when theyre attacking. subs would also surface when they arent in motion, thus making them vulnerable to attack (later on, theres some other units that can attack subs while theyre underwater, but at first theyre only vulnerable to other subs while underwater)

[SMST]

Well, something is definetly to be considered. Some of those are Austria/Hungaria, Khmer/Vietnam, Songhai and Nubia/Ethiopia. What I fear, though, is that the sources are not too rich for those civilisations (except Austria). Also, cool as they may be, I lack profiles for them, for every civ must have something that makes it unique rather than just its existence to include it in the game.

Invisible units are handled a bit different in my draft, but it is basically the same idea.

[oshron]

the reason i chose "songhai" as the name for mine is because it was the dominant power in western africa at the time that the Atlas timeline begins, and technically encompasses most of the countries there today (including mali, mauritania, niger, and nigeria). previous names included Soninke, Mali(an), and Mandinka. i was personally planning for them to be a more economic african civilization as opposed to the more military-oriented zulu (and congolese, though they arent in atlas). the economic bonus is based on the apparent wealth and generosity of the rulers of the mali empire, which immediately preceded the songhai empire (case in point: Mansa Musa). i also have a faction just like this in my mythology mod that focuses solely on the mali empire (which was a medieval power). i also have the songhai in here kind of as the alternative history opposite to the french--as an informal rule, i try to have every civilization have a "rival" or "alternate timeline" civ to go with them (like the Yankees/Confederates, British/Irish, Balkans/Turks, and Germans/Nazis)

[SMST]

Well, if I can manage it, I would do the following civilisations:

EUROPEAN CULTURES

French Faction (Gauls -> Franks -> Feudal France -> Absolutistic France -> Revolutionary France -> Republican France)

British Faction (British Celts (Brythonics, Picts) -> Anglo-Saxon -> Feudal England -> Constitutional England -< UK)

German Faction (Germanics -> pre-Habsburg HRE -> Prussia -> Imperial Germany -> NS -> Federal Germany)

Austro-Hungarian Faction (Huns/Dacians (?) -> Magyars -> Habsburg -> K.u.K -> Fascist Austria -> Modern Austria)

Russian Faction (Skythians -> Rus -> Tzars -> Soviets -> Federation)

Balcan Faction (Greek Poleis -> Hellenistic Greece -> Byzantine Empire -> Serbia -> Yugoslavia -> Serbia again?)

Italian Faction (Roman Empire -> Lombardian City States -> Genova/Venice -> Unified Italy (Risorgimento) -> Fascist Italy -> Modern Italy)

MIDDLE EASTERN CULTURES

Iranian Faction (Medians -> Persians (Achaemenid/Parthians/Sassanids) -> Muslim Shahs -> Modern Iran)

Irakian Faction (Babylon/Assyria -> Kalifate of Bagdad -> ? (Ottoman Rule) -> Modern Iraq)

Levantinian Faction (Phoenicians -> ? (gapgap ...) -> Israel

Anatolian Faction (Hittites -> Seljuks -> Ottomans -> Modern Turkey)

AFRICAN CULTURES

Egyptian Faction (Ancient Egypt -> Saracens -> Mamluks -> Modern Egypt)

Eastern African Faction (Nubia/Kush -> Ethiopia -> Sudan)

Western African Faction (Mali -> Songhai -> Ghana -> Modern Western Africa)

Southern African Faction (Bantu -> Simbabwe -> Zulu -> Modern Southern Africa)

ASIAN CULTURES

Chinese Faction (Warring States -> Chinese Empire -> PRC)

Japanese Faction (Yaoyi/Yamato -> Feudal Japan -> Modern Japan)

Korean Faction (Three Kingdoms -> Goureyo/Choson -> Annexed Korea -> Modern Korea (South or North?)

Mongolian Faction (Xiongnu/Huns -> Khanate -> Modern Mongolia(probably some spin-off for modern Mongolia isn't that much of a great power))

Indian Faction (Mauryans -> Gupta -> Moguls -> Modern India)

South-East Asian Faction ( ? (ancient south-east Asian powers?) -> Khmer -> Vietnam/Kambodscha (?))

AMERICAN CULTURES

North Amerian Faction (Native Americans -> United States)

Meso American Faction (Mayans -> Aztecs -> Mexicans -> Modern Meso-America (Cuba?))

South American Faction (Huari -> Incans -> Modern South America (Brazil/Argentinia etc.)

----

However, these are far too many civilisations so that this would probably be a day-dream to include them all ... so I will most probably stick with my former concept, but definitley adding another African Culture.

[oshron]

here's the changes i would personally make, both in names and in the civilizations themselves:

FRENCH: Gauls >> Franks >> Feudal French/Normans >> Monarchist/Imperial French >> Revolutionary French (including Napoleon) >> Republican French

BRITISH: Britons >> Anglo-Saxons >> English >> Imperial British >> United British

GERMANS: Teutons >> Holy Romans >> Prussians >> Imperial Germans >> Nazi Germans >> Republican Germans (this last one could possibly be split into two seperate developmental stages, West Germans and THEN Republican Germans, but that seems kinda like overkill to me)

AUSTRIANS(it may be better to go with just austria; thats what i had originally planned until i decided on austria-hungary instead): Huns >> (medieval Austrians) >> Habsburgs >> Austro-Hungarians >> Austrians

RUSSIANS: Slavs >> Kievan Rus >> Imperial Russians >> Soviet Russians >> Federal Russians

BALKANS: Hellenes >> Byzantines >> Bulgarians >> Serbians(?) >> Greeks

ITALIANS: Romans >> Papacy (as in the papal states) >> Venetians >> Italian Kingdom (encompassing fascist italy as well) >> Republican Italians

IRANIANS: Medes >> Persians >> Shahs >> Iranians (there SHOULD be some other stage in here)

MESOPOTAMIANS: Babylonians >> (inbetween stages; im not to clear on this history) >> Iraq

LEVANTINES: Canaanites >> Palestinians (not too sure on this; maybe you could have an arabian faction instead of this one)

ISRAELIS: Hebrews >> (inbetween stages; they were kinda spread out and disunified until israel) >> Israelis

TURKS: Hittites >> Seljuk Turks >> Ottoman Turks >> Republican Turks

EGYPTIANS: Ancient Egyptians >> Mamelukes >> Colonial Egypt >> Republican Egypt

EAST AFRICANS: Nubians >> Ethiopians >> Masai >> Somalians

WEST AFRICANS: (undecided ancients) >> Mali >> Songhai >> Congolese >> Nigerians(?)

SOUTH AFRICANS: (no changes)

CHINESE: Qin >> Han >> Yuan >> Ming >> Song >> Qing >> PRC

JAPANESE: Yamato >> Kamakura >> Edo >> Meiji >> Showa >> Heisei (modern Japan; look on wikipedia starting with yamato period for ideas)

KOREANS: (no comment; i dont know enough korean history to comment here)

MONGOLIANS: (no comment; again, i dont know enough of their history to really comment here)

INDIANS: Indus >> Vedics >> Mauryans >> Mughals >> Colonial India >> Republican India

SOUTHEAST ASIA: (no comment on the changes, but one medieval power there was the Majapahit which controlled much of indonesia)

NORTH AMERICA: (no real changes here, but i still think some Vinland content would be interesting; you should also make note of the "Copper Culture" for their ancient/medieval period)

MESOAMERICA: Olmecs >> Mayans >> Aztecs >> Imperial Mexicans >> United Mexicans (if you want teh cubans, you could make another "Caribbean" faction that focuses on the native Caribs and possibly on the Creole, but that seems like overkill)

SOUTH AMERICA: (no great changes, but the modern one should be Brazil, which is projected to be a future superpower; thats also why theyre in Atlas)

i think ideally you should try to get as many ideas as possible first, and then set up a certain criteria for them: do they have a roughly applicable civilization equivalent in all periods? this would mean that there would have to be an Ancient, Medieval, Pre-Modern, and Modern civilization roughly equivalent to the power. i would also suggest having Modern distinct from the final civilization, which would be them in the present day unless you want to extend it to the future. so, for example:

Celts (Ancient) >> Anglo-Saxons (Medieval) >> English (Pre-modern) >> Imperial British (Modern) >> United Kingdom (Present-day, final)

even if its not entirely accurate, like for the austrian faction you could have their ancient civilization be the huns and then advance into the magyars/dacians/whatever-equivalent-medieval-austrians, then the habsburgs, austro-hungarians, and finally modern austrians. with the north americans, it could be a collective Amerindians (or the Copper Culture), then Vinlanders (as the medieval, or a seperate amerind civ), then American Colonists, and then if possible two seperate versions off modern america (perhaps American Union and then United States, the Union in reference to the civil war).

im not quite sure what the other criteria could be, but i think ive given you a good start

Edited July 12, 2010 by oshron

[Ephestion]

You could do it based on Indo European Ideas:

Although the picture above makes it seem like there is only one Greek language but in reality all it's other branches like those that were found in SOuthern Italy and Spain have simply not made it into the modern era. North Armenia had Pontic Greeks and Georgia also had Georgian Greeks but they spoke different languages . They were Greek derived but were usually considered Greek dialects. But the distinction is rather hard to make because all the Eastern Greeks used more Ancient Greek words than did Modern Greek, by this i mean where an ancient word was replaced with a modern version in Greece, the Eastern Greeks did not change such word. eg. Phrases like Pou-then eisai in the east became apo pou eisai in Greece (Where are you from?).

[SMST]

Thanks for all your ideas. But too many factions are too many. Remember that I actually want to make this mod, rather than being some day-dream. I made my mind up and decided to do ten factions. That is doable, I think, if they are not too individual. (there will be some unit-sharing, most probably) However, you can't have the whole globe encompassed in ten factions, so I decided to take the setting of 0AD, which is Europe and the Middle East, and stretching the timeframe to the whole history.

The ten factions are thus:

France

Britain

Germany

Russia

----

Italy

Greece/Balcan

Phoenicia/Spain*

----

Persia

Egypt

Turkey/Israel*

*These are not the most logical, I confess, but they are the best matches I can think of. As for Phoenicia/Spain, I can use the trait of a maritime and exploration civ in all ages. The Turkey/Israel faction is more peculiar, but since Hittites, Ottomans and Modern Israel were/are all very expansive, it will work, I think.

Asia, Africa and America will probably be added if the first version is finished, but for now, it is these ten.

Oh, and for Ages, I will use the system above:

Stone Age

Tool Age

Bronze Age

Iron Age

Classical Age

Hellenistic Age

---

Dark Age

Medieval Age

Renaissance Age

Colonial Age

Enlightenment Age

Revolutionary Age

---

Industrial Age

Imperial Age

World War I

World War II

Cold War Age

Modern Age

---

Information Age**

Global Age**

Robotic Age**

Cybernetic Age**

**possible expansion ages

[Jeru]

Personally I don't care either way, but I think a lot of people both in Turkey and Israel may take issue with "Turkey/Israel"

Also, to be more serious, the Hittites and original inhabitants of Asia Minor, Anatoliya and other parts of modern-day Turkey had very little to do with today's Turkic peoples, who came from the Central Asian steppes very late in history.

And of course, all throughout history Turkish people and Jewish people have been very, very different, in terms of language, religion etc. Although Turkey in modern times, up until the last few years anyway, has been very secular and open to the West, which meant they shared a lot in common with Israel.

So it is kind of like making a "France/Germany" or a "France/Poland" faction, or how the European colonialists called Vietnam "Indochina" just because it was in the middle between India and China, and without caring that they had languages and cultures there that were neither Indian nor Chinese

Edited July 17, 2010 by Jeru

[SMST]

Jeru, I know all the things that you're saying and have thought them through.

The Turks are descendant from Steppe Nomads of Central Asia. The Hittites have not anything to do with them, nor do the Israelis. But I go for regional rather than for ethnic criteria by designing my factions. (the ancient Celts have nothing to do with today's Englishmen and French, the Skythians nothing with modern Russians, the Phoenicians nothing with modern Spain) You cannot go totally for ethinc criteria in such a game if you want a continous faction evolvement because many empires and ethnies were shattered and followed by others.

As for the Turkey/Israel thing - I could continue with the Turkish civ since Turkey itself is a dominant power today, too. However, this would rule the Israelis out, and I feel they have to be in the game.

[oshron]

you could include them in an expansion pack. the israelis/hebrews/jews are present enough throughout history that they warrant their own civilization, in my opinion

[SMST]

Ancient and modern - no problem. Medieval - near impossible. From the razing of Jerusalem in 70 AD until the founding of the State of Israel, the Jews were spread all over Europe and the Middle East and were no political faction that could be modelled into a faction for a RTS. Until I don't make up something, I can simply see no way to do it.

[Jeru]

(BTW if you notice, this is the only people in the world with such a story - other ancient peoples just merged into other entities)

[SMST]

Indeed, the history of the Jews is a very interesting one, just for the fact that the managed to keep their cultural identity over so many centuries. It is also a tragical one, most tragical being the horrific crimes that were done to them by the Nazis.

Perhaps something like that could be done:

Ancient Hebrew Kingdoms (Juda, Israel, Hellenistic Judaea) -> Diaspora (units are the same of another faction - most appropriate would perhaps the German, Turkish or Russian faction - but the traits of the civ stay the same to reflect the cultural identity) -> Modern Israel (individual units again)

What do you think?