Carthagenians

[SMST]

I have a question about the Carthagenian Civilisation Concept:

To me it looks as if they had no real disadvantages. They get all citizen soldier classes (except cav archer, but still), all Ship classes plus the best ships, two very strong special units (War Elephant!), if you include the War Elephant as a ram, they have also all siege classes, they have the strongest walls, a very good economy, the best sea trade ...

Where do their disadvantages lie?

I imagine that the individual Carthagenian Soldier would be quite weak (not as weak as the Persians, but not be able to compensate that by fast training and low costs either) and the units will be most expensive. (since most of them are mercenaries) But even if this is correct ... I think that they are too strong ...

[SMST]

Möhp.

[feneur]

Yeah, the Carthaginians are strong in almost all regards, but as you say, things will be expensive for them (somewhat outweighed with the good sea trade I guess ). Hopefully that and smaller tweaks to the stats (i.e. fewer hitpoints or lower attack or similar) will be enough to balance things, but otherwise we'll have to do something more drastic. For now the design stays as is on that front though, there's no reason to change things on this level before we have had any testing to prove this or that point of view.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Yeah, I think it's a good bet the Carthaginian units will be more expensive, since most of Carthage's armies consisted of mercenaries.

[SMST]

Yeah, the Carthaginians are strong in almost all regards, but as you say, things will be expensive for them (somewhat outweighed with the good sea trade I guess ). Hopefully that and smaller tweaks to the stats (i.e. fewer hitpoints or lower attack or similar) will be enough to balance things, but otherwise we'll have to do something more drastic. For now the design stays as is on that front though, there's no reason to change things on this level before we have had any testing to prove this or that point of view.

Thanks for answering

Yeah, I know that no one can tell definitively what balance problems this or that faction might or might not cause during gameplay without extensive testing. However, it seems as if you are currently working on that faction and I just wanted to point that out. Just a thought that ocurred to me, if they are the ones who pay a lot of ressources, then it's fine.

[Jeru]

I'm not sure we're working on the Carthaginians, but if we are, "working on that faction" in this stage of development means 3d modeling and such, not determining unit stats and balancing.

[SMST]

I'm not sure we're working on the Carthaginians, but if we are, "working on that faction" in this stage of development means 3d modeling and such, not determining unit stats and balancing.

Okay, then forget about that...

[Ephestion]

Carthage at 0AD was still a Greek colony.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Carthage at 0AD was still a Greek colony.

Check your facts.

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Carthage at 0AD was still a Greek colony.

You've been correct about Pontus and Bactria being locals ruled by Greek lineage, but here, you are way off. Carthage was a Phoenici colony, and was a fierce opponent of the Greeks concerning trade. They were not even influenced by Greek culture, such as the Romans and the other Italians.

[Mythos_Ruler]

You've been correct about Pontus and Bactria being locals ruled by Greek lineage, but here, you are way off. Carthage was a Phoenici colony, and was a fierce opponent of the Greeks concerning trade. They were not even influenced by Greek culture, such as the Romans and the other Italians.

Well, I wouldn't say they were not influenced at all by Greek culture. I am sure Carthage adopted some Greek building techniques, technology, and warfare tactics and weapons. But religion? No, you're right; Carthage was very distinct from the Greeks in matters of religion and social institutions.

[Ephestion]

Look up Greek Phoenician battles circa 1200-900bc Carthage was taken by Greeks and that is why they had so many colonies in North Africa surrounding Carthage.

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/ephestion/history.htm

Encyclopaedia Britannica used to have an image showing some of the Greek colonies in that period. The phoenicians were essentially wiped out during their war with the Greeks. Also not all archaeology of the former Phoenician sites indicate a mixing of Greek and other artifacts, the Greek stuff they think was a result of co-existence between Greeks and Phoenicians. But it is more likely as most people come to realise they became Hellenised.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Ephestion

[Mythos_Ruler]

Wut? A Phoenicia-Greek war?

[SMST]

Wut? A Phoenicia-Greek war?

Not a particular war, I guess, but there was definitivley a lasting conflict between Greeks and Phoenicians, especially in Sicily. Syracuse was the leading power in this war.

Taken from the German wikipedia:

Even lasting conflicts during the 5th and 4th century BC with the Greek colonies, especially Syracuse and since his foundation with Nikaia (Nizza) did not prevail the rise (of Carthage). During this time, Carthage was exposed to strong influences of Greek culture, but allied with the Etruscians.

But I found neither on Wikipedia nor elsewhere a evidence that Carthage was taken by Greek invaders, as Ephestion states. Perhaps he could show us a source for that. (no, not something biased about the non-existent "thriving democracy" in Greece (!) that "aimed to rid the Greek colonies and population of land lords, kings and tyrants", which you most probably wrote yourself, Ephestion ... )

[Mythos_Ruler]

Carthage was never conquered by the Greeks. They were defeated on the battlefield many times in Sicily, but were never conquered until the 3rd Punic War (by the Romans).

Edited June 2, 2010 by Mythos_Ruler

[SMST]

Carthage was never conquered by the Greeks. They were defeated on the battlefield many times in Sicily, but were never conquered until the 3rd Punic War (by the Romans).

I did not believe that, either ... I just wanted to know where Ephestion got that strange idea ...

[plumo]

To turn things around. The phoenicians ( and thus carthaginians) started colonizing the mediterrenean sea prior to the 'Greeks', thus influencing them most likely.

[Ephestion]

When you start talking about Phoenicians you may as well start talking about the days the Lizardmen ruled the earth.

Phoenicia as a semitic entity is a theory not a fact. There is enough written by Heroditus and others historians to suggest the Phoenicians to whom they referred to are not the same as to whom we refer to today. Much like trying to come to grips with southern Italy being filled with Greeks before there was a Rome, and who were the Romans if all their leaders and their army spoke Greek initially?

None of the colonies attributed to Phoenicians are real history or archaeology they are just one of many theories. And in Greece they are not at all considered in any texts other than in context with the original ancient scripts (or their interpretation of them). To Greek scholars there is no Phoenicia or some mystical Semitic people that had colonies and yet left no remains of their existence. The Greek alphabet for example is said in Western literature (today) to derive from Phoenician. That part is true, but the original phoenicians were a Hellenic people living Between Syria and Anatolia, some suggest they started in Cyprus. To prove this is the fact that Greek artifacts are prolific in every point considered "Phoenician". Also the Greek language scripts found along the Danube and in various other places outdate any so called Phoenician scripts. If anything the Phoenicians were Greek settlements that lost their Hellenic identity due to influx from various other semitic tribes this atleast would explain why so much Greek artifiacts dating pre 1500BC are found at every so called "Phoenician" colony. (Carthage 700-800BC) After Alexander Carthage remained part of Ptolomies possessions but had a resident king/administrator.

Etymology: Greek “Carchedon” and Latin “Carthago” > Phoinician/Arabic “Qart Hadasht ( = New City)”

Note that Greeks named another city the "New City" Neapolis/Rome.

[plumo]

Phoenicians were not a 'hellenic' people.

And yes, Phoenicians existed.

DNA study proves alot:

Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA)

[Ephestion]

Proves nothing. Like i said the Phoenicians were only made reference to by a few historians the most reliable was Heroditus and from him all he says is that the Greek Alphabet was derived from the Φοιινικον. Now what he said and to whom the term Finikon applies is debated but most people believe that the Finikes he talks about were a Hellenic tribe.

[SMST]

Proves nothing. Like i said the Phoenicians were only made reference to by a few historians the most reliable was Heroditus and from him all he says is that the Greek Alphabet was derived from the Φοιινικον. Now what he said and to whom the term Finikon applies is debated but most people believe that the Finikes he talks about were a Hellenic tribe.

Source!

[Ephestion]

Answer these questions...

1. When did the Phoenicians first appear?

(there is no evidence but they are speculated to have existed around 1300BC)

2. When are the earliest artifacts depicting a writing system in Greece found?

Crete 2000-1500BC, Linear A,B, Phaistos disk etc.

Therefore? How could a writing system be introduced by Phoenicians when the Greeks had already been using various localised dialectual forms?

3. Are there any relations between the theoretical Phoenician alphabet (of which no real substantiated record exists) the basis of the Greek language or Alphabet?

The letter A in Greek = A and only A. In Semitic script it has different meanings depending where it is tonated it can be an A, E or I (H). The same can be said for several other letters. The Greek has Vowels the Semitic languages don't. The Greek alphabet was the first Alphabet system the others were writing systems but without complete syntax and grammar. Even Christ said I am the Alpha and Omega not the Alef and whatever.

3. Where are Mycaenian and Minion colonies thought to have existed? Almost identical to those of some Phoenician sites Egypt, Carthage, Sicily, Malta. (Note Kardus or Cardos's story by DIODORUS SICULUS 1BC. Plato and numerous others agree that the alphabet was given to man by God (there was no inventor of writing systems other than by God). Diodorus explains that Carthage was settled by those from Crete.) He adds a different light to the story of Carthage as he was a Sicilian Greek and knew that region of the Mediterranean much better than most other mainland historians. (I think its in Book 5..only fragments remain)

4. Are there records of semitic script used in the mediteranean? No.

5. Any Greek scripts in the Mediterranean?

Yes. There are finds of tablets using a primitive alphabetical script dated 1800BC in Cyprus. Did such scripts have any similarity to the that used by Greeks? Yes.

Therefore: So semitic existence in the Mediterranean world is proved by what means? Neo-propaganda?

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=vXFW36...0script&f=false

6. When is Hellenistic (Pre-Greek State/Dorians, Ionians, Minoans etc) colonisation thought to have ended? 3000BC by Ionians, Mycaenians, Minoans, Dorians and others living in the Cyclades and the Hellenic peninsula.

7. Are all the names Sidon, Biblos, Tyre, Carthage derived from the Hellenic language? Yes. Implying the same names were used by locals not just by Greeks which the ROmans had a tendancy of renaming things.....In this case the Romans kept the same names as the Greeks. Any record of these cities in any language uses the Greek form for their names. Why?

Because they either were or became Hellenistic cities. Hence when Romans took over they adopted that heritage.

Was Carthage under Greek control?

Yes under the Ptolemaic rule. Note this: The Ptolemies controlled both Sidon (The so called center of Phoenicia), Then Tyre the replacement capital of the Phoenicians. The regions interchanged between between Selucid and Ptolemaic rule for hundreds of years. But also keep in mind Carthage was considered a backwater compared to SIdon or Tyre. Ptolemaic rule over the center of Phoencia granted it control over Carthage. There was no need for a direct assault on Carthage. Sicily and Rome on the otherhand had no political control over the city of Carthage and needed to subdue it by force... You only use army when political leaverage fails.

What are the majority of artifacts found in Carthage?

Ancient Greek and Egyptian.....Why? Ptolemy the Greek Egyptian. NOt as some say the Carthagians mimiced everyone.

[SMST]

Answer these questions...

1. When did the Phoenicians first appear?

(there is no evidence but they are speculated to have existed around 1300BC)

I can not get any certain dates about the founding of the Phoenician cities on the internet. My historical Atlas says, though, Byblos is founded in the 4th century BC, Tyros and Sidon some time later.

2. When are the earliest artifacts depicting a writing system in Greece found?

Crete 2000-1500BC, Linear A,B, Phaistos disk etc.

Yes.

Therefore? How could a writing system be introduced by Phoenicians when the Greeks had already been using various localised dialectual forms?

By checking the right date.

Another theory is based on the early Greeks HAD Phoenician influence and among the third of the four immigration waves to Greek WERE Phoenicians who influenced the Minoean and Mycenean culture. One source for that is your beloved Herodotus, read the "Historia" and there, on the very first page, he tells us about a Phoenician woman, taken away by the Greeks. If you read a little bit between the lines here, this would be the mythological version of a immigration from Phoenicia to Greece. Another being the myth of Europa and Cadmus.

3. Are there any relations between the theoretical Phoenician alphabet (of which no real substantiated record exists) the basis of the Greek language or Alphabet?

No real substantiated record?

Those were made up by propaganda, then, I guess.

The letter A in Greek = A and only A. In Semitic script it has different meanings depending where it is tonated it can be an A, E or I (H). The same can be said for several other letters. The Greek has Vowels the Semitic languages don't. The Greek alphabet was the first Alphabet system the others were writing systems but without complete syntax and grammar. Even Christ said I am the Alpha and Omega not the Alef and whatever.

Pfth, I could defy that easily enough if I knew the proper English grammar terms ...

But the evolution of language is no subject to argue about, right? Even the Greeks, having the Alpha, had so-called "spiritus" (plural) which are indicators if a vowel should be pronounciated with a "h" (asper) or not. (lenis) This is most likely a evolvement out of the "Alef".

And you were there and heard what Jesus said?

The New Testament is originally written in Greek, so it is very likely, that there is Alpha and Omega. The language of Jesus was most likely Aramaic, which is a semitic (!) language related to the Phoenician language.

3. Where are Mycaenian and Minion colonies thought to have existed? Almost identical to those of some Phoenician sites Egypt, Carthage, Sicily, Malta. (Note Kardus or Cardos's story by DIODORUS SICULUS 1BC. Plato and numerous others agree that the alphabet was given to man by God (there was no inventor of writing systems other than by God).

This is still a historical discussion. Please do not bring in God.

Diodorus explains that Carthage was settled by those from Crete.) He adds a different light to the story of Carthage as he was a Sicilian Greek and knew that region of the Mediterranean much better than most other mainland historians. (I think its in Book 5..only fragments remain)

Propaganda, anyone?

I do not know what Diodorus wrote ... but being Sicilian Greek himself, he would most likely have his enemies (who were proud of their Phoenician lineage) being defied as descendants of Greeks ...

The Phoenician colonisation of Sicily begins in the 9th centuy BC. The Greeks arrive there 735 BC with the foundation of Naxos.

4. Are there records of semitic script used in the mediteranean? No.

You may visit the Pergamon Museum in Berlin one day. There you'll find phoenician and old arabic inscripitons in the original.

5. Any Greek scripts in the Mediterranean?

Yes. There are finds of tablets using a primitive alphabetical script dated 1800BC in Cyprus. Did such scripts have any similarity to the that used by Greeks? Yes.

Yes.

Therefore: So semitic existence in the Mediterranean world is proved by what means? Neo-propaganda?

And why is the existance of Greek scripts on Cyprus (which was colonized by Greeks very early on) a contra for Phoenician existence?

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=vXFW36...0script&f=false

Where does it mention Phoenicians and proves your point? It only says that there is Minoean/Mycenean influence on the Cypric scripts and language. Fine. I'll the last one to deny that. But that is not subject of the topic, actually.

6. When is Hellenistic (Pre-Greek State/Dorians, Ionians, Minoans etc) colonisation thought to have ended? 3000BC by Ionians, Mycaenians, Minoans, Dorians and others living in the Cyclades and the Hellenic peninsula.

Ouch. As I wrote above, the so-called Great colonisation is dated around 750 BC and ends around 500 BC. This is where the colonies in Sicily, France etc. were founded. There IS an earlier colonisation by the Myceneans around 1800 BC, but it was limited to Cyprus and the coast of Asia Minor. 3000 BC is a ridicolous date.

7. Are all the names Sidon, Biblos, Tyre, Carthage derived from the Hellenic language? Yes. Implying the same names were used by locals not just by Greeks which the ROmans had a tendancy of renaming things.....In this case the Romans kept the same names as the Greeks. Any record of these cities in any language uses the Greek form for their names. Why?

Egyptian records use the Egyptian names. Assyrian records use the Assyrian names. (where Byblos is "Gubla", for example) Just because Greek is the most common language of records in ancient times, it does not mean there is no other language ...

Because they either were or became Hellenistic cities. Hence when Romans took over they adopted that heritage.

Was Carthage under Greek control?

Yes under the Ptolemaic rule. Note this: The Ptolemies controlled both Sidon (The so called center of Phoenicia), Then Tyre the replacement capital of the Phoenicians. The regions interchanged between between Selucid and Ptolemaic rule for hundreds of years. But also keep in mind Carthage was considered a backwater compared to SIdon or Tyre. Ptolemaic rule over the center of Phoencia granted it control over Carthage. There was no need for a direct assault on Carthage. Sicily and Rome on the otherhand had no political control over the city of Carthage and needed to subdue it by force... You only use army when political leaverage fails.

That is the point where you should mention sources for your statements.

Carthage became pretty much independent at the time Tyre and Sidon were conquered by the Persians. At the time of the Diadochi, it was completely independent and had formed a empire of its own.

What are the majority of artifacts found in Carthage?

Ancient Greek and Egyptian.....Why? Ptolemy the Greek Egyptian. NOt as some say the Carthagians mimiced everyone.

The Hellenistic culture influenced Carthage, that's for sure. But to derive drom that fact that all cities in the mediterranean were hellenistic is simply ridicolous.

Edited June 4, 2010 by SMST

[Ephestion]

So then, the rest is upto you to investigate if your interested. Otherwise accept there are two different theories, the Greeks don't believe that there was a Phoenician Empire but rather a strong community present in those cities. Most of the real artifacts and history have been altered by the simple fact Islamic scientists, historians and archaeologists present their own views. Much like Egypt hiding any evidence of Jews in the BC era. So to not many Arabs or Muslims publish anything to indicate Rome or Greeks were present and not just as you say influential but leaders of those cities.

Note earlier in this thread that the Encyclopaedia Britannica published a short list of Greek colonies in the Mediterranean you may view it and take note that the Greek colonies were well established prior to 700BC. It clearly shows Carthage as one of them.

[Aldandil]

2. When are the earliest artifacts depicting a writing system in Greece found?

Crete 2000-1500BC, Linear A,B, Phaistos disk etc.

Therefore? How could a writing system be introduced by Phoenicians when the Greeks had already been using various localised dialectual forms?

???

Linear B was abandoned and forgotten at the end of the Aegean Bronze Age, while the Linear A, Phaistos Disk, and Cretan Glyphic writing systems were all abandoned centuries earlier. The Greek alphabet was adopted during the Archaic, hundreds of years after the end of the Aegean Late Bronze Age. There is no similarity whatsoever between the Archaic Greek alphabet and the Bronze Age writing systems, let alone any written records that fall within the considerable temporal and morphological gap between Linear B and Archaic Greek.

Linear B was logosyllabic and was missing several consonants which are present in the Greek alphabet, making its use for Mykenaian Greek rather awkward. The Phoenician script was an abjad*, which Archaic Greeks turned into an alphabet by taking certain consonants not present in Greek (such as Aleph) and using their symbols for vowels instead, then making up some more symbols for the other vowels. And you'll have an easier time seeing the similarities if you compare using the Archaic Greek alphabet, not the modern one whose letters are shaped rather differently and which is missing some Archaic letters, such as Qoppa and Sampi.

You cannot possibly expect all the letters to have the exact same pronunciation when they are adapted from one language to a different language that isn't even in the same language family, especially when we are talking about languages that were used over time by people with different dialects, who adapted the letters to their needs as they went. Just look at how the Roman alphabet is used to write Latin, Mandarin, Finnish, Gaelic, and Hmong, and compare those pronunciations to the letters in English!

Of course, the Greek language was already spoken in Greece during the Late Bronze Age and recorded in Linear B, and was not borrowed from the Phoenicians. But it's now agreed that Linear A was not designed for the Greek language, leading to Linear B's poor fit for Greek since it was adapted from Linear A, and the Phaistos Disk and Cretan Glyphic scripts probably weren't for Greek either.

*Abjad - a script having only consonants. All languages have spoken vowels, including Semitic languages, but Semitic and Cushitic vowels are determined partly by grammar and the languages are legible to fluent speakers even without written vowels. Other Afro-Asiatic languages, like Egyptian and Hebrew, were also written without vowels because recording the vowels wasn't necessary. Nowadays modern Hebrew and liturgic Coptic are written with vowels (Coptic using an alphabet derived from the Greek letters), but earlier Hebrew and ancient Egyptian weren't. I don't know whether Arabic is written with vowels, though.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Aldandil