post-0 AD idea: mythology

[oshron]

DPFAR: the egyptians are almost ENTIRELY complete! all of their mortal units (except for the Hekay magician) and buildings are completely filled in now.

all that remains are their civilization bonuses (which would be inherent traits or special abilities that their units have no matter what gods they worship), a team bonus, and some details on their major gods (minor gods and mythological units still need to be sorted out)

Osiris' traits are still missing, but they'll be focusing on agriculture and improvements to the pharaoh

Ra's traits, bonus, and unique technology are missing

Set's traits are missing

any ideas?

[Aldandil]

Oh, if you can find enough info from the Southeast groups to have all their military and myth unit info come from that area, then that would work fine! I'm just saying that if you have to use myth units from all over the entire continent, then that's a sign you don't have enough info to do the faction at all, because the result will just be a mishmash. The thing is there is no "generic" group anywhere. The similarities between ethnic groups from far apart regions of the continent just aren't large enough to make a generic construct that makes sense. And if not one of the myth units is from the Mississippian area, then that's really a sign you don't have enough information available.

Here are the mythical creatures I know of from the Southeast (mostly copied and pasted from websites of unknown trustworthiness, so beware of that):

Birdman (Mississippian) Half-human, half-bird figures depicted in Mississippian art, with human faces, long beaky noses, bird tails, and feathered wings on their backs or in place of arms. These images may represent a costume instead of a nonhuman creature. The meaning of the artwork is unknown.

Giant Leech (Cherokee) It is red with white stripes, and the size of a house. (Ewwww.)

Hatcukliba/Monster Lizard (Muskogee/Creek) a gigantic lizard (my info about this is obviously lacking)

Horned Serpent (SE. N. America) “In ancient times, there lived some very large snakes that glittered nearly as bright as the sun. They had two horns on their heads, and they possessed a magic power of attraction. To see one of these snakes was always a bad omen.”

Sint Holo (SE. N. America) “An invisible, great horned serpent, having spiritual and cultural significance among the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw and adjacent tribes. This “snake” might reveal its presence to any male youth who had demonstrated a marked degree of wisdom or intelligence beyond his peers. Deep in a cave below the water, Sint Holo dwelled. He brought on heavy rains and could make a noise like thunder but could not make thunder, like the Thunderer spirit, its enemy. Only to those who showed they were wiser than the others, would he show himself and offer his old wisdom.”

Uktena (Cherokee) “Those who know say that the Uktena is a great snake, as large around as a tree trunk, with horns on its head, and a bright, blazing crest like a diamond upon its forehead, and scales glittering like sparks of fire. It has rings or spots of color along its whole length, and can not be wounded except by shooting in the seventh spot from the head, because under this spot are its heart and its life.”

There are some stories of people encountering a (or the?) Horned Serpent, and how the encounter came about. They are probably worth reading if you want to know about myths from this area.

Hvcko Capko (Seminole) as described in the book Oklahoma Seminoles: “It resembles a horse, with a horse’s tail, but has a head more like that of a wolf, and enormous long ears. It is extremely ugly, and like Tall Man [a Sasquatch-like being] it smells like stagnant muddy water. Willie commented that the creatures frequent rocky areas, where they are often observed watching people as they pass.”

Stvkwvnaya (Seminole) a lake serpent 20 feet long, with four fins and a single horn on its head, which is an aphrodesiac

Piasa Bird (Illini, Miami) A huge monster once painted on a cliff in Illinois. “While Skirting some rocks, which by Their height and length inspired awe, We saw upon one of them two painted monsters which at first made Us afraid, and upon Which the boldest savages dare not Long rest their eyes. They are as large As a calf; they have Horns on their heads Like those of a deer, a horrible look, red eyes, a beard Like a tiger's, a face somewhat like a man's, a body Covered with scales, and so Long A tail that it winds all around the Body, passing above the head and going back between the legs, ending in a Fish's tail. Green, red, and black are the three Colors composing the Picture..”

Later, it was described as a winged monster that terrorized and ate humans until a heroic chief lured it into the range of archers with poisoned arrows.

Ustu’tli (Cherokee) “There was once a great serpent called the Ustu’tli that made its haunt upon Cohutta mountain. It was called the Ustu’tli or “foot” snake, because it did not glide like other snakes, but had feet at each end of its body. The Ustu’tli moved by strides or jerks, like a great measuring worm. Its feet were three-cornered and flat and could hold on to the ground like suckers. It had no legs, but would raise itself up on its hind feet, with its snaky head waving high in the air until it found a good place to take a fresh hold; then it would bend down and grip its front feet to the ground while it drew its body up from behind. It could cross rivers and deep ravines by throwing its head across and getting a grip with its front feet and then swinging its body over.”

The Uw`tsun’ta was another serpent of the same kind.

Uksu’hi (Cherokee) a giant man-eating boa constrictor-like snake (another I have little info on)

Star-Creature (Cherokee) When stars come down from the sky and visit the Earth, they look like round, fuzzy or downy creatures with small heads. Wind in their fur/feathers creates sparks, but they only actually produce light at night.

Tla’nuwa (Cherokee) a giant hawk (I also have not enough info about this one)

Totki fu/Fire Dog (Seminole) Small with pointed ears, they are always seen or encountered in mated pairs traversing North and South paths, never easterly-westerly. They are seen most frequently at the headwaters of streams and creeks. (Presumably this is a canine sort of animal but why it is a Fire Dog I don't know. Googling it only brings up hardware supplies.)

Lû’ Dja Låko/Monster Bull Turtle/Big Terrapin (Muskogee/Creek) A huge turtle, large enough for several men to stand on its back. However, anybody who climbs on its back is stuck to it permanently, and it will immediately climb into a lake or the sea and drown them.

Underground Panthers (Cherokee) These are human-like talking panthers [cougars/pumas/mountain lions] that live underground. As with [European] fairies, a human who stays with them may think he is gone only hours but will find he has been gone several days. A human who stays with them will eventually become one, and will die if he returns to live with humans.

Underwater Panther/Oi-Katca (N. America) “Among many Native American tribes, these are evil gods of water. At the same time they are a source of great wisdom and healing power, particularly with herbs.”

Misipisiwak or ‘Underwater Panther’ which has horns, is a game guardian (master of animals), and in the flood myth prevents the extermination of game.

“The Underwater Panther was an amalgam of features from many animals: the horns of deer or bison; snake scales; bird feathers; the body and tail of a mountain lion; and parts from other animals as well, depending on the particular myth. Mishipizheu were said to live in the deepest parts of lakes and rivers. Some traditions believed the underwater panthers to be helpful, protective creatures, but more often they were viewed as malevolent beasts that brought death and misfortune.”

I don't know if Mishipizheu is a Southeastern name, but I know Oi-Katca is.

Winged Serpent (Mississippian) Bird-winged rattlesnakes, some with mammalian heads and others with horns or antlers on a snake head, depicted in art (especially pottery). Most are striped or spotted. They may be related to the Horned Serpents or Piasa, but what the art means is unknown.

I know thunderbirds exist in Northwest Coast and Dakota stories, and in stories of one California ethnic group, but I don't know about Southeast thunderbirds. Wendigo is a northern story, probably either Iroquois or Algonquin. There may be a nation/tribe that has stories about both Wendigo and Thunderbird, but not in the Southeast.

Some sources that would be useful for Southeastern stories:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bwbBQ8ojz...epage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=OENl21sHq...epage&q&f=false

http://www.teacheroz.com/myth-legend.htm

Edited November 6, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

why, thank you!

any ideas for what can fill out the egyptians?

[Aldandil]

You're welcome!

And uh well... what are "traits"? I know you had Set granting the Slavery tech and a Drought god power that attacks opponents' food production, and Re was going to have a "heat-stroke" god power that did something harmful to enemy soldiers. Set is also a war god, if that helps.

[oshron]

lol, i guess i shoulda defined that the idea behind traits is that theyre inherent advantages that a major god grants to the civilization and that remain for the rest of the game. for example, the Celtic major god Brigantia automatically gives more armor and hunting prowess to her soldiers. so that means that her soldiers receive less damage than the units of other civilizations at the start of the game (and this also adds up with later improvements that cost resources to research) and also that theyre better hunters than those of other civilizations at the start of the game (so where it would take another civ three hits to kill a boar, brigantia's celts would do it in only one)

of course, that example is a very rough approximation

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I guess that this is just me, but I think that many people will be offended by seeing Christianity, Islam, and Judaism being depicted as myths. How would you like Atheism being featured as a myth in this mod?

[SMST]

I guess that this is just me, but I think that many people will be offended by seeing Christianity, Islam, and Judaism being depicted as myths. How would you like Atheism being featured as a myth in this mod?

You know the difference between "myth" and "mythology", do you?

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Yes, of course. Mythology is the study of myths and myths are misrepresentations of the truth

[Aldandil]

Er... no. Myths are narratives told concerning sacred subjects. Every religion has some. Their status as literally true or not is irrelevant to whether or not they are mythic or sacred.

Furthermore, Christians or whoever have no right to be any more offended than people of any other religion at the use of their sacred stories for entertainment, unless they're insisting that their religion is superior and everybody else's is false. This project is trying to treat all the religions with pretty much equal irreverence and/or respect, not playing favorites.

Whether it's disrespectful to use sacred stories for entertainment is actually a worthwhile discussion. But no religion should get special treatment.

[oshron]

EDIT: aldandil posted while i was still typing

the main reasoning is that, to someone who is not a christian, jew, or muslim, those faiths are false and tantamount to the mythology of ancient greece and egypt. besides, shinto is still practiced in japan--by more than 119 million people, i might add!--and i dont see any objections to that. a main point of this is to present mythology and religion from all over the world, and that's exactly what is being practiced here. and the christians, muslims, and jews fought against "pagan" civilizations for centuries: in addition to crusades against muslims in the middle-east, there were crusades against pagans in poland-lithuania; mesopotamia and persia had their own native religions before being conquered by muslims and converted to islam; and the israelites quite famously fought against the canaanites, who were not jewish. if anything, it would be more of an insult NOT to include them when such obscure mythologies as the inca and the slavs are included!

by definition, "mythology" refers to the religious texts and tales of a particular people or religion. therefore, the Bible, the Torah, AND the Koran are all mythology, just very widely practiced mythology, the same as how roman paganism was very widely practiced before the fourth century. nothing but the utmost respect is given to ALL of those monotheistic factions without exception

EDIT: on another note, it would make no sense to include atheism as a faction because it is literally the belief that there are NO gods in any way, shape, or form. i'd also like to clarify that, for the monotheistic factions, their only real gods are their major gods (ie, Christian Jehovah, Mandinka [Muslim] Allah) while their minor gods are instead beings held as being divine or otherwise very important to the religion, such as angels, prophets, and patron saints

Edited November 7, 2010 by oshron

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Thank you for explaining

[oshron]

no problem

[Aldandil]

The colloquial use of the word "myth" to mean urban myth or falsehood doesn't have any connection to mythology, which is how confusion can arise. It's like how "gay" means 1. homosexual, 2. happy, and 3. brightly colored.

Atheists have no mythic/sacred stories, AFAIK, so yeah that couldn't be included. (Plus there were probably no atheists during the time periods oshron's using.)

and the christians, muslims, and jews fought against "pagan" civilizations for centuries: in addition to crusades against muslims in the middle-east, there were crusades against pagans in poland-lithuania; mesopotamia and persia had their own native religions before being conquered by muslims and converted to islam; and the israelites quite famously fought against the canaanites, who were not jewish.

And every native religion of Europe, and that of Egypt, were also exterminated by persecution by the Christians in the Roman Empire and middle ages, except some east European ones that lasted until the Russian Communists exterminated them instead.

By the way oshron, for the three monotheistic/Abrahamic civs are there other terms you can use to replace "minor god" and "major god" in the game (where the player selects them for their civilization, and when they're subsequently displayed)? Since for those three religions using "minor god" as the descriptor for angels, or "major god" for the Devil, and so forth doesn't make any sense (and referring to the Devil as a god should really be avoided), even though they have the same game function as other civs' gods. Could they be "major power" and "minor power" or something? Or major/minor force? Or major/minor patron?

Edited November 8, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

And every native religion of Europe, and that of Egypt, were also exterminated by persecution by the Christians in the Roman Empire and middle ages, except some east European ones that lasted until the Russian Communists exterminated them instead.

actually, as i understand it, egyptians simply accepted christianity when it started out--the coptic church was teh first large-scale christian movement before it became the roman state religion, iirc. but pretty much, yeah.

By the way oshron, for the three monotheistic/Abrahamic civs are there other terms you can use to replace "minor god" and "major god" in the game (where the player selects them for their civilization, and when they're subsequently displayed)? Since for those three religions using "minor god" as the descriptor for angels, or "major god" for the Devil, and so forth doesn't make any sense (and referring to the Devil as a god should really be avoided), even though they have the same game function as other civs' gods. Could they be "major power" and "minor power" or something? Or major/minor force? Or major/minor patron?

well, yeah. for the game, "minor gods" that arent actually gods are referred to as such. for example, i redid the chinese pantheon earlier today and not all of their major AND minor gods are even deities. in fact, i think the only one of their major gods thats actually a god is Huang Di, the Yellow Emperor, who is more of a culture hero than a god in any case. when a being that is often held as divine or is otherwise very important to that religion (for the christians, like Jesus and Lucifer as major "gods" alongside Jehovah), they arent called a god in the game. for the purposes of programming, they function exactly teh same as an actual god for another civ (say, Athena) and are referred to as such in the coding for simplicity's sake, and would probably still be referred to as minor gods as a blanket term even if both choices given to you were spirits or prophets or angels instead of actual deities. so even though Lucifer/Satan is treated as a god for the purposes of the game, he is not described as one in-game and is still "the Devil", whereas Jesus is "the Son of God" and Jehovah is "God of omnibenevolence" (thats the best descriptive term i can think of without calling him "the One True God" since his jewish and muslim equivalents are also presented; for the record, even though Jehovah, Allah, and Yahweh all refer to the same deity and not seperate gods, they are treated seperately in the game based on how those different practicioner's interpret their version of God and also based on their actions in their parts, so Jehovah is the omnibenevolent God of the new testament while Yahweh is the more vengeful God of teh old testament/torah. i dont yet know enough about his role in the koran to effectively described what his differences for the mandinka would be from the semites and christians)

wow, that was a long side-note!

for the last part there, as i said, they would still function in the same way as the actual gods of another civilization even though they in all correctness are not true gods. changing it to say things like "major power" or simply "patron" may be possible, but i dunno. also note that i already use the term "patron" quite frequently for major gods so that there's mention of major gods within a civ being the "patrons" of different peoples or aspects within that civilization. for example, the mesopotamians are technically divided into three seperate mesopotamian peoples: Marduk for the Babylonians, Ishtar for the Sumerians (even though Ishtar is actually her babylonian name and not the sumerian; i just think it sounds better ), and Tiamat for the Assyrians (the assyrians, with their genocidal reputation, being cast as the mesopotamian villains here). with the semites, theyre divided with Tanit (phoenicians/carthaginians), Yahweh (israelites), and Dagon (canaanites). those are the only two civs that come to mind at the moment, though, but methinks theyre good divisions

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

This is my suggestion for the Christian factions for gaining favor. They convert people. I guess if you didn't want to make it be like Age of Empires, you could simply make it so that when they convert a unit, they do not fight as hard against you because you're fellow Christians. Another idea is merely changing them to being neutral. As for god powers, the seals, trumpets, and bowls of judgement would make incredible god powers.

[oshron]

the current idea for christians gathering favor is through "Mass"; all of their units generate favor indefinitely as long as they exist, but just at a very slow rate (so with all of the starting units that you have at the beginning of a a random map--what, four melee, four range, three cavalry?--you would get one unit of favor every ten seconds or so) so if you wanted to get favor faster, you would have to make more units. for the semites as a whole (which includes the israelites), they give Offerings to gain favor, and ive decided that the Mandinka favor generation method will be Prayer pretty much identical to how the greeks got favor in AOM (here, they get it from a theatron)

as for christian god powers, the only one that i have so far is "Pentagram" for Lucifer, which summons one early-game christian myth unit to fight for the player (such as a hellhound). for the record, youre probably not gonna see many of the plagues of egypt as christian or semitic powers because im actually giving those to the egyptians

[Aldandil]

actually, as i understand it, egyptians simply accepted christianity when it started out--the coptic church was teh first large-scale christian movement before it became the roman state religion, iirc. but pretty much, yeah.

That is incorrect. It is a lie promoted by apologists of the atrocities committed at that time, and repeated by people who don't know it's a lie. Don't believe it.

Many Greeks, Egyptians, and Italians converted willingly, even before Christianity was legal, and suffered persecution. Many other people did not want to convert and were forced against their will by the Christian emperors. They made laws outlawing non-Christian practices and the temples were systematically destroyed or "converted" into churches so non-Christians could not use them. There are actual written records of the oppression and destruction, and of how the victims resisted without success for centuries afterwards, sometimes peacefully and sometimes violently. The Alexandrian temple of Serapis (at the north end of Egypt) and the Philae temple of Isis (at the south end), for example, were actively used by large numbers of worshippers right up until they were destroyed by imperial decree, and Egyptians tried to continue the popular Hapy-festivals.

I don't have the information for non-Mediterranean Europe, but though I know many people were forced I suspect some converted voluntarily there too. Really, it's unlikely that an entire population will all be of one mind and all decide to convert or not to convert unanimously.

I apologize that this is getting off-topic, but I must set the record strait.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Aldandil

[Mythos_Ruler]

See: the pagan philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria; dragged naked in the streets then flayed and burned by a Christian mob. Vicious stuff.

[oshron]

That is incorrect. It is a lie promoted by apologists of the atrocities committed at that time, and repeated by people who don't know it's a lie. Don't believe it.

Many Greeks, Egyptians, and Italians converted willingly, even before Christianity was legal, and suffered persecution. Many other people did not want to convert and were forced against their will by the Christian emperors. They made laws outlawing non-Christian practices and the temples were systematically destroyed or "converted" into churches so non-Christians could not use them. There are actual written records of the oppression and destruction, and of how the victims resisted without success for centuries afterwards, sometimes peacefully and sometimes violently. The Alexandrian temple of Serapis (at the north end of Egypt) and the Philae temple of Isis (at the south end), for example, were actively used by large numbers of worshippers right up until they were destroyed by imperial decree, and Egyptians tried to continue the popular Hapy-festivals.

I don't have the information for non-Mediterranean Europe, but though I know many people were forced I suspect some converted voluntarily there too. Really, it's unlikely that an entire population will all be of one mind and all decide to convert or not to convert unanimously.

I apologize that this is getting off-topic, but I must set the record strait.

no problem at all as far as im concerned; it IS important to maintain historicity

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

What is the Biblical reference for the Pentagram god power? Where is a hell hound in the Bible? There are actually hundreds of amazing things that the Bible mentions that you could consider a god power. For instance, let's take the siege of Gog and Magog. There are two potential god powers there. #1 God, rains down fire on the bad guys and #2 Satan causes the world to supply him with a massive army. (it is described as having the number of the sands of the sea and having magnificent armor and horses. I am not saying that they would have to be that big, but you could perhaps summon a fairly large army.) What about the Trumpet of death? That caused millions of horsemen to come over and slaughter over 1/3 of the earth's population with fire, sulfur, and smoke? (excepting Christians) As for Biblically accurate myth units, what about Seraphim, Cherabim, leviathons, chariot angels, messenger angels, demons that can posses humans and animals, kill humans, torture them, etc,...

As for the reason for conversion giving favor instead of the shear existence of Christians, may I remind you of the parable of the Prodigal Son or the shepherd finding the lost lamb. Angels do rejoice when a person is converted according to the Bible and Jesus commands Christians telling them to go out into the world and spread the Word of God. Christians are commanded to convert other people not just exist.

[oshron]

What is the Biblical reference for the Pentagram god power? Where is a hell hound in the Bible?

pentagrams are associated with the devil. hellhounds actually appear in numerous european legends, but giving them to the christians seemed the most fitting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellhound

and its not JUST a hellhound that could be summoned, just an early-game christian myth unit; teh hellhound was just the only one that came to mind when i was typing that before. also note that i actually plan to make it so that both Dieu (i renamed Jehovah to give Him the french name for God, since the christian language will be rendered as french) and Lucifer can acquire the hellhound unit because of the obvious association of hellhounds with hell, but also because there's some thinking that hellhounds are actually used by God, not the devil, to keep the souls of the wicked from escaping hell

There are actually hundreds of amazing things that the Bible mentions that you could consider a god power. For instance, let's take the siege of Gog and Magog. There are two potential god powers there. #1 God, rains down fire on the bad guys and #2 Satan causes the world to supply him with a massive army. (it is described as having the number of the sands of the sea and having magnificent armor and horses. I am not saying that they would have to be that big, but you could perhaps summon a fairly large army.) What about the Trumpet of death? That caused millions of horsemen to come over and slaughter over 1/3 of the earth's population with fire, sulfur, and smoke? (excepting Christians) As for Biblically accurate myth units, what about Seraphim, Cherabim, leviathons, chariot angels, messenger angels, demons that can posses humans and animals, kill humans, torture them, etc,...

thats very true, but remember that i have to consider the other civilizations as well. lucifer's pentagram is just the only one that ive put down so far i plan to give as many overtly bible-based powers and other abilities, creatures, etc to the christians, but i have to leave a fair number of other supernatural events and natural disasters aside for the other civilizations, and be creative whenever possible: i made one of the late-game greek god powers "solar flare", and as i envision it, that could very well look like the power of God raining down on sodom and gomorrah.

As for the reason for conversion giving favor instead of the shear existence of Christians, may I remind you of the parable of the Prodigal Son or the shepherd finding the lost lamb. Angels do rejoice when a person is converted according to the Bible and Jesus commands Christians telling them to go out into the world and spread the Word of God. Christians are commanded to convert other people not just exist.

maybe i'll make it so that the christian hero unit, the crusader, generates favor whenever he converts an enemy unit (but only a small amount). and only mortals can be converted, so no getting heroes, demigods (super units), or myth units

btw, the christian myth units that i have down so far are: Antaeus (based on the divine comedy), Archangel, Basilisk, Cherub, Cockatrice, Fiery Serpent (subject to change), Furies (based on the divine comedy), Gargouille, Hellhound, Leopard (based on the divine comedy), Peluda, Quinotaur, Salamander, Tarasque, and Unicorn

yknow, i just realized that a fair number of those myth units are french in origin, and french is gonna be the christian language here

EDIT: i finally added the last myth units for the celts; before they were missing a few terrestrial MUs where they had only naval ones before. now, they have these myth units:

TOWN PHASE: Pech, Grindylow, Bogeyman, Banshee, Selkie

CITY PHASE: Questing Beast, Knucker, Lambton Worm, Jack-in-Irons

EMPIRE PHASE: Cu Sith, Green Knight, Lake Maiden, Dullahan, Niseag

LEGEND PHASE: Redcap, Water Giant, Leprechaun, Aughisky, Wyrm

Edited November 9, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Hm, if Angels and Archangels are available as myth units, what about other orders of angels? There is an angelology that posits seven "ranks" or choirs (I don't know the word used) of angels, I think they are Thrones, Powers, Dominions, Angels, Archangels, Cherubim, and Seraphim. I don't know which are the most powerful/important and which the important angels such as Michael, Gabriel, etc. belong to according to that angelology, but if you have the good lesser "gods" for the Christians be very important/high-ranked angels, then you could potentially use the lesser ranks of angels as myth units.

And I suppose that you could have demons that can possess enemy units, and maybe nephilim, as myth units specific to Lucifer.

Likewise, for the Mandinka Muslim civ, there could be good djinn and/or ifrit myth units specific to Allah, and evil djinn and/or ifrit myth units specific to Ibliss.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

Hm, if Angels and Archangels are available as myth units, what about other orders of angels? There is an angelology that posits seven "ranks" or choirs (I don't know the word used) of angels, I think they are Thrones, Powers, Dominions, Angels, Archangels, Cherubim, and Seraphim. I don't know which are the most powerful/important and which the important angels such as Michael, Gabriel, etc. belong to according to that angelology, but if you have the good lesser "gods" for the Christians be very important/high-ranked angels, then you could potentially use the lesser ranks of angels as myth units.

the cherub and archangel myth units are meant to be generic, nameless angels in the same feel as the regular mortal soldiers while the important angels like gabriel and michael function as minor "gods". btw, the cherub isnt the fat little winged infant that its usually depicted as, its a fierce warrior of God that flies low to the ground and uses a sword, while the archangel is a legitimate flying unit that attacks from above. i think i'll be going over the christian pantheon again and switch it up so that named archangels/seraphim are the late-game gods while patron saints replace the earlier ones. also, the idea of giving angels and whatnot to lucifer is kind of that those would be angels that are deceived by the devil and join him in rebellion against God

And I suppose that you could have demons that can possess enemy units, and maybe nephilim, as myth units specific to Lucifer.

thats definitely a possibility; minor gods specific to a single major god arent uncommon

Likewise, for the Mandinka Muslim civ, there could be good djinn and/or ifrit myth units specific to Allah, and evil djinn and/or ifrit myth units specific to Ibliss.

yeah, im mostly giving them djinn as myth units (also note that, in islam, the devil--Iblis--is held as a wicked djinn) to emphasize their muslim aspects while the rest are filled in with native african units, going outside their normal range only when necessary; im trying to give them as many legitimate west african creatures as possible, so they'd probably get something along the lines of a catoblepas as one of their MUs

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

These are just several notes about angels. There are elect angels, angels that care for churches. Messenger angels are important in their own way and could actually do pretty cool stuff. (Look at the story of the announcement of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.) Seraphim were dedicated to worshiping God. They are known to usually have six wings. Cherubim are by the way quite similar to seraphim as in they have six wings, but their function in the classes of angels is dedicated to protecting the holiness of God. They should also be depicted as very fiery. (Their name actually means "fiery".) They are also depicted with four heads in Ezekial chapter 1 and riding in a chariot. Actually, Lucifer was a cherub. Angels could do incredible feats such as striking entire armies with sickness and could move very massive rocks. The thing that I would emphasize the most about their overall physical characteristic of being very bright. Their flight pattern by the way, was described with only flapping one pair of wings. (Isaiah 1) As for heroes, I would suggest saints such as Saint George. The main problem with him though is that he is English.

[Aldandil]

Also, the winged humanoid version of angels isn't the only way they're depicted. They could be other, totally non-humanoid shapes, such as ophanim which look like spinning wheels covered with eyes. If you don't want to make all the angel myth units look similar and redundant, using the Biblical references for non-humanoid appearances would be very cool and arguably more accurate. As for using the cherub and archangel as myth units, it's worth checking to see if those are pretty high ranks, and maybe using one of the other ranks (ophanim, principalities, thrones, dominions, powers, virtues) might work better. You could try to find more info about them and what they do to serve God.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Aldandil