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Phoenix-TheRealDeal

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Posts posted by Phoenix-TheRealDeal

  14. Scale Of Ships.

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Not really, because ship size, relatively, had been determined long, long ago (yes, SUD). Furthermore, as with almost any spec, there are other ramifications of design that ship size integrates with, so frex, if you change ship size then you change a lot of other lil thangs about the game.

  16. Audio Design 5 - Voice List

    in Game Development & Technical Discussion

    Posted

    Egads! Whom made the decision to vocalise the Iberians in the Basque language while I have developed them in the Spanish language?

    BEING one of the most unique languages on earth is NOT sufficient justification for giving Basque tongue to the Iberians. What are we up to now, teaching linguistics? Personally, I want to see this game played and specifically I want to see Iberians played by Spaniards and Portuguese and Basques, all of whom will play it if in Spanish cuz they can all get along in that language... and I accept that the probability exists that the majority of those playing Carthaginians might be those who can speak Hebrew.... though Ca may have a broader appeal just because they are to well known as having been Rome's principal adversary pre-0ad... eh?

    Basque? :) Sopmebody did some nice work there, and one of the best freinds I ever had was a Basque (an Army room mate who initially taught me the elements of speaking rudimentary Spanish...lol), but................ ;)

    5.4.2 Greeks

    The pronunciation of vowels is similar to Spanish.

    Isn't this interesting? Here the Greek pronounciation is referenced to the Spanish language.... which appears nowhere in paragraphj 5.

  17. Celtic Stuff

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Jas, you might try letting your fingers walk through the Yellow Pages of Spokane, there are bound to be some used book shops in that city. Then just call around to see who might have the issue. I've never subscribed to NG, but have a numbero of them on my bookshelf that are issues that were of particular interest to me. Never paid more than a buck for any, including the map. That ain't free, but... :lol:

  21. Celtic Stuff

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Alriiiiiiiiiiight! You got it! :D

    DId it also have the map supplement in it? Oh, I hope so, that map is superb!

    And here, begorrah eh bigosh, happens to be the post I made on Tonto's old FRTS forum just about 3 years ago, based mostly on the same resource. Remember now, as you read through, that I was speaking to the remaking of AoE/RoR that we wanted ES to do.=>

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    Here's some interesting info derived from the National Geographic Society:=>

    1. The Celts fit the time_frame of the game, 1,000 BC to 500 AD, just about perfectly. the ancient Celts are referred to as the Founders of Europe.

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    Fearless and high-spirited they (the Celts) rushed into battle as if into sport. In hilltop forts (added emphasis mine) they held regal feasts, and in sacred oak groves they offered human sacrifice. Onaments adorned thier and persons; poets sang of thier deeds. They were the Celts. In the eight centuries before Christ, these people created the first civilization north of the Alps; thier domain at its height spread from the North Sea (to include modern-day Scandanavia of Sweden and Norway, and, the British Isles including Ireland) to the Mediterranean (to include the most of the Iberian Peninsula, France, the northern half of Italy, the Balkans along the Adriatic, into Macedonia) and from the Black Sea to the Atlantic (on a line running approximately from somewhat north of the mouth of the Vistula River on the Baltic SSE to and to include the Danube River delta, across the Hellespont and on into Anatolia - Central Turkey).

    For such an important people, the history of the Celts is veiled in uncertainties. Scholars place thier origin with the Indo-Europeans who, in the third millenium BC, inhabited the territory east of the Carpathian Mountains. The story of thier dispersal north and west remains unclear. Rich in oral tradition, ancient Celts rarely used a written language, and the details of everyday life must be pieced together from classical references, archeological finds, and legends later put into writing by Irish (Celtic) monks. For now we must define the Celts as a loose federation of European tribes -- people who never formed a political empire but who shared a common tongue, distinctive material culture, and closely related religious ideas.

    The Celtic culture began to emerge around 800 BC, when newly introduced ironworking dramatically improved the quality of weapons and tools. Scholars labeled this early iron-using culture "Hallstatt." Hallstatt technology dressed the stage for the Celtic peak of material achievement and influence in the "La Tene" period which began around 500 BC. La Tene culture produced the most elaborate art of pre-Roman Europe. During these two "periods" Celtic tribes settled all across the European Continent.

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    Added: This civ perfectly fits the time-frame of our proposed "Remake of AoE/RoR

    Added: Celts were the FIRST European civ to mine, smelt and work iron. Indeed, there Smiths became so advanced in forging that they produced the best iron weapons of the time-period.

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    Yet decline was inevitable for this collection of fiercely independant tribes. By the third century BC, Rome had embarked on its conquest of Celtic lands, and for the next three centuries, tribes fell one-by-one before the march of Roman legions. Only Ireland and part of Scotland escaped attack. In Christian fervor and a revival of the Celtic spirit of wanderlust, Irish monks later (6th through 12th centuries AD -- beyond the time-frame) established monasteries throughout Europe.

    Today the Celtic presence still exists -- in traditions such as Halloween, lively folklore, and, most significantly, the ancient languages still spoken (1977) by more than two million people in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and Brittany (northwestern France). In places as diverse as Spain and Hungary people still think of themselves as Celts. If this implies a spirited independence of mind, then the Celtic mark on Europe is indelible.

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    In addition to those already posted derived of reliable historical sources regarding the Celtiberians (as a "tribe" of the Celtic culture), the following also describe the character and characteristics of the Celts that need to be taken into consideration in developing a more realistice game and unique "civilization"... and come from the same source as above:=>

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    Germanic Tribes - Traditionally identified as completely separate people, the Germanic tribes in fact had close cultural ties with the Celts. The segregation arose from Ceaser's arbitrary decision to divide Europe into the Gallic domain, which he planned to conquer, and the Germanic region (north of the Danube River) which he preferred to leave alone.

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    So we have it having been Gaius Julius Caesar's decision which defined the "distinctions" between tribal factions of Celtic culture as being in some way different from one-another... which is misleading with repect to the Celts. This fact and some of the following to come below may have some influence on the consideration for which "civs" make the final list for the game.

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    Warfare - Charging into battle a Celtic Chieftain rode in a light 2-wheeled chariot (having also a driver), fitted with wicker sides and iron tires, and pulled by a pair of horses. After flinging a spear at the enemy line, he would leap from the chariot and challenge a single adversary to single combat. If triumphant, he would return with the head of the foe dangling from the neck of one of his horses.

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    Another drawing on the map depicting the Celts also shows a Celtic Chieftain riding in a similar 4-wheeled chariot accompanied by a driver having 4 horses under rein and two other helmeted spearmen aboard. Thus the civ should have both "vehicles" available in its roster of units.

    Added: I propose that the 4-wheeled Chariot carying 3 "spears" as well as driver could be a semi-UU perhaps with some other(s) civ that might have had such a "weapons system".

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    Religion - Unlike thier Greek and Roman counterparts, the Celts worshipped no set pantheon of gods. More than 400 names of dieties survive, indicating that each tribe probably had its own cult figures. Common threads exist, however. Groves (of oaks) and springs were set aside as sanctuaries, human heads and images of animals such as boars and bulls where held sacred, and priests known as "Druids" performed religious rites.

    Druids - Practicioners of sacrificial rites and chanters of ancient teachings, Druids were Celtic priests who ranked at the top of tribal heirarchy. Oral training requiring as long as 20 years, prepared them to be arbitrators, seers, teachers, historians, and leaders of worship.

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    This suggests to me that the Druid priests had as much "authority" as to have existed almost as if co-Kings or vice-Kings and that they should be very powerful in the game.

    Added: Celts should get all priestly techs in the game except Monotheism, and should probably also get some sort of a priestly bonus.

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    Naked Warfare - "Very terrifying." Thus the Greek historion Polybius described the naked gaesatae, "spearmen" ( wearing nothing but a belt, collar cirlet about the throat - common to Celts, helmet - usually plumed and of bronze or iron) and carrying a spear and half-body length somewhat elliptical truncated-ends rectangular shield) at the battle of Telamon in 225 BC. The naked body was thought to invoke a magical protection against death.

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    Added: I propose "Gaesatae" for the name of the Celts' infantry type UU instead of Woad Raider.

    Added: While the Celtiberians are picture carrying round shields, Celt of elsewhere are pictured carrying the "Tower Shield".

    The Celts obviously had "Faith"... so much so as a matter of fact that they might merit getting it at a discount. One would think so at any rate if Celtic warriors came at you in such terrifying manner with such an "attitude" that they disregarded any bodily covering other than the weapons they were carrying and a shield.

    Added" "dies aster" had been proposed as a Celt UT - Celts units die upon conversion. Indeed, at least on the occasion of the fall of Numantia under siege by the Romans for several years, the entire nobility of that fortress city comitted suicide rather than submit to the conqueror.

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    Mercenaries - Both fierce and adventurous, Celts readily hired themselves out as soldiers of fortune, spreading the Celtic presence as far as Sicily and Eygpt. By the 3rd century BC few rulers lacked Celtic mercenaries.

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    Added: The Romans, never having very good cavalry themselves, used Celtiberian cavalry as one of the two civs of choice to form the bulk of thier cav auxillaries after thier conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, so they must have been quite good.

    Perhaps the Celts merit a civ bonus for "alliance" or "mercenaries" during MP team games AND when playing with "comps" with comp ally(s) against AI civs.

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    Celtic Women - Described as equal in stature and courage to men. Celtic women often entered battles as zealous warriors. Boudicca, Queen of the Iceni in Britain, burned Roman Londium (London) in 60 AD.

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    As we know from other sources women had truly equal status with men in all respects to include political, commercial, & military station in life. While there was a "nobility" so also could anyone advance on personal merit and women often served as the chieftains, or Queens, of thier tribes. This fact alone has the net effect of almost doubling thier "strength" as a civ and negates the "weakness" posed in the fact that a single strong leader did not bring them to cohesion as an empire. Had THAT happened?

    Added: Women lost thier truly equal status to some legal extent after Celts had been christianized in the 5th and 6th centuries AD.

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    Agriculture - Celts relied on farming and cattle for thier tribal livelihood. With the spread of ironworking, studier tools enabled workers to clear land more efficiently. Celtic farmers added iron to the simple plow -- to create an implement still used. They also invented a wheeled harvester and pioneered the use of fertilizer and crop rotation.

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    Doubtless, Celts should get farming upgrades "free" up through and including crop rotation. Also, with regard to the breeding of animals, they were the culture that domesticated the Auroch cattle of central Europe and bred the "better" strains therefrom... so they should get a "bonus" in that regard as well. Also, they were great miners, smelters, alloyists, and workers of all metals known at the time.

    Perhaps the Celts should be considered for a boar hunting bonus?

    Good grief! I had completely forgotten that as a trade good salt was almost as valuable as the precious metals to many civs of the ancient world and even later. Add "Salt Mining" as a unique or semi-unique tech?

    Added: I propose to add Salt as a civ bonus which commodity may be traded at the marketplace without penalty or fee for other commodities,

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    Celtic Oppidium - Fortified settlement (town)

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    The map shows the following places which other sources show to have been surrounded by stone walls, buttresses, towers, and having "castle-like" structural fortifications as well:=> 5 in Iberia, 22 in Gaul, 4 in Britain, 16 in Germania (north of the Alps, east of the Rhine), 6 in the Balkan Peninsula (The Great Hungarian Plain), and 1 in Galatia (Asia Minor), for a total of 54! The Celtic civ must have stone walls and towers. See also discussion of Iberia below.

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    Scythians - Renowned horsemen on the steppes of eastern Europe, the Scythians influenced the style of Celtic warfare and dress. These nomadic people who bordered the Hallstatt culture in the east during the late 6th century BC employed swift and savage cavalry tactics, which the Celts adopted. The Scythians also introduced to the Celts the custom of wearing trousers, apparel more practical than a tunic when riding a horse.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So the Celts had both fast and savage cavalry, what I don't know yet is how they were armed other than that they carried all manner of spear or lance, some unique, and their famous steel swords which the Romans later adopted. Body armor apparently was "light", shields round, or elongated in some cases for foot troops... and I don't know if they would have learned from the Scythians cavalry archer skills as I haven't seen it mentioned or depicted yet.

    Added: Amongst the weapons the Romans adopted from the Celts were the Shortsword, Longsword, Dagger, and Pilum - a unique javalin which penetrated shields and armor when hurled then bent so that it couldn't be removed from the victim and thrown back at them. I've since also found other documents that speak of the Celtic practice of tie-ing rag pieces on infantry javalins & spears, archer arrows, and cavalry javalins, then soaking them in pitch and lighting afire. I propose that ni additon to the medium cavalry Fire Lancer already proposed fot he remake that Celts also have a UT or civ bonus that brings this capability to infantry and archer lancelike or bow weapons which are capable of setting buildings, siege engines and ships within range on fire.

    Added2: Found documentations that states Celts were very effective against the Romans with chariots, and that thier chariots unlike others had iron "tires", and that they were the first European civ to mine and smelt iron... and that Polybius the propaganda monger lied when he said the Celtic iron weapons weren't so good (despite the fact that the Romans adopted the Shortsword "gladius", the Celtic Longsword, the "Spanish" Dagger, AND the Pilum Javalin from the Celts) and the Romans were NOT as good at forging as were the Celts (they were the preemminnent ironmongers of the age to say nothing of thier other advanced metallurgical skills).... all of which they had been using long before the Romans took them up... for just a couple thangs.

    Heck, the more I "get into" the Celts, the more I like them. If they had ever confederated into an Empire, they'd have probably swept the western world clean... which was another of thier exemplary cultural traits.

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    Greek Influence - Exposure of the Celts to the classical world began around 600 BC, when the Greeks established the trading colony of Massalia on the site of modern Marseille (France). The Celt's principal import was wine. Greek inspiration extended to art motiffs, styles of armor and helmets, and coinage. The Celts traded such commodities as iron, tin, copper, salt, and slaves.

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    Make special note of armor styles, coinage, and valuable trade goods. Also, while chieftains are usually depicted as wearing feather plumed helmets, other "high station" warriors are usually pictured with iron helmets having an eagle figure or some other like a boar affixed to the top. these individualistic "motiffs", because there were "several", would be cool for either basic or the highest upgrade of a warrior "type" line... that thier helmets make them distinctive from warriors of other kinds.

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    Cisalpine Gaul - In a great wave of expansion, Celtic tribes poured through the Alps into Italy around 400 BC. Rampaging bands captured Rome in 387, but then gradually settled down to a life of agriculture in the Po River valley. Celtic strength in Italy waned in 225 BC when a huge army suffered a crushing defeat by the Romans at Telamon.

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    Whoops! They shoudn't have left Rome alone when they had 'em by the gonads earlier on, eh?

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    Gaul - Center of late Celtic culture in Europe, Gaul, by the 2nd century BC, was home to 60 major tribes. Some of the inhabitants lived in fortified settlements -- a break from the rural character of the archaic Celtic society.

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    Notice the change between Cisalpine Gaul and Gaul toward fortifying towns.

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    Iberia - Iberians along the mediterranean coast (where the Greeks and later the Carthaginians established colonies) resisted domination by the Celts, but the two peoples intermingled throughout central Spain. The Romans called these Celtiberians "robur Hispaniae" -- Spanish hearts of oak -- in recognition of thier tenacity and valor. Entrenched in hilltop forts, at least 5,000 of which have been counted in Portugal alone, these people withstood Roman occupation for more than two centuries.

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    I insist that Celts have "hardened" defensive structures, perhaps ala Byzantines... because they not only often defeated the Romans on the field of battle but were able to resist siege heroically and even when a major city like Numantia finally fell continued to cause the Romans MAJOR heartburn for another 100+ years.

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    Britain - Celtic traders, soldiers, and craftsmen crossed from the Continent into Britain, bringing with them new tools, art fashions, and metalworking techniques. Celtic practices in Britain often outlasted thier continental counterparts: In 43 AD British Celts battled the Roman invaders in 2-wheeled war chariots, a mode of warfare outdated on the Continent. The most innovative Celts to settle in britain were the Belgae from northern Gaul. They ushered in the concept of towns and the art of enameling.

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    Again the mention of metalworking skills, war chariots, and "towns", as well as a unique style of "art".

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    Eastward Expansion - By the 3rd century BC the Balkan Peninsula remained one of the last European frontiers open to invasion and settlement by Celtic tribes. Warring bands descended into Macedon, Thrace, and Greece, reaching as far as the Shrine of Delphi, which the Celts plundered in 279 BC. Unable to establish a foothold (in Greece or Macedon). the invaders retreated north to Thrace. Gradually Hellenized, the Celts here began minting coins based on classical models. Vengeful Thracians later routed the intruders.

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    The second mention of "coinage".

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    Galatia - Invited into Asia Minor as mercenaries, the Celts created the easternmost domain of their realm. At the behest of the King of Bithynia, 20,000 Celts crossed into what is now Turkey in the early 3rd century BC. After 50 years of pillaging, the warriors repelled at Pergamon (230 BC) settled in the region called Galatia. St. Paul addressed an Epistle to the Galatians, early Celtic converts to Christianity (The fortified "capitol" city that they founded there, Ancyra, exists as the Ankara of today.).

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    I think I might have enjoyed being a Celt. They were superb warriors (which "old sarge" sorta likes) , had great inter-gender ethics as well as personal ethics, knew how to laugh and have a good time, were creative and innovative, and very independent in character. Had I been one, I would have promoted writing, brought them together as an empire, and taken out those pesky Romans handily.

    Added: I've also found that the Celts were culturally a remarkably clean and healthy people; indeed, they taught both Greeks and Romans how to make soap.

    Source: Supplement to National Geographic, May 1977, page 582A, Vol. 151 No.5 - CELTIC EUROPE.

    Additional Historical/Archeological Sources: 10 found on Internet, URLs available.

    Original post: 29 October 2000

    Additions made: 30 October 2000

    Additions2 made: 2 November 2000

    Emperor tonto_real

    TONTERIAN WORLD EMPIRE

    Bombard Towers RoooooolllllZ!

    tonto_real@www.tontoclan.com

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    ===================================

    :)

    correx, etcs.: The siege of Numantia in Iberia did not last "several years" but 8 months, as did the siege of Saguntum, not mentioned above. The first was conducted by the Roman Scipio Amelianus, the second by Carthaginian Hannibal Barca; both cities of the Iberian Penisnsula. The Numantines were 'Celtiberians', an earlier miscegenation between Celts and indigenous peoples that took place over a large area of the interior. The people of Saguntum were best characterised as Greco-Iberians, the 'Iberians' being a 'new' culture that grew out of Grecian influence rapidly expanding in the peninsula from the 5th to 3rd centuries BC from its centres along the 'Mediterranean Levant' (roughly Saguntum to Emporion), though the Greeks founded the city as a trading station long before that. The Carthaginians were supported by, principally, Turdetano allies, of a culture born out of the old Tartessian that had long been influenced by them in the southern portion of the peninsula from centres as ancient as Phoenician founded Gades and later founded Kartegenea (New Carthage), though conversely the blossoming Iberian culture had also its affects on them. Everything then got 'mixed up', by degrees, depending on where 'you were' as trade and the mixing of cultural aspects, exchange, went on amongst all of the tribes on a regular basis. In addition to these two 'sub-cultures' within the area of the Iberian Peninsula, there were also the Lusitani of the west, Portugal and the Atlantic, and the Barscunes, or Vascones (Basques of today), in the north. The Lusitani were a mixture outgrown of an earlier Celtic migration that took place during the Halstatt era and indigenous probably having some North African influence, too (as had also those in the south), and the Basque presents an anomally because the nearest 'relatives' linguistically seem to have come from the Caucasus... so far back that that it is unknown when... just as, curiously, so also does the Estruscan of Italy (or perhaps they from the Hittite in Anatolia). We have decided, that although there are so many varied cultural aspects to the peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, indeed many more tribes than I cite here but all interrelated in some ways, to treat with them as a separate civ in the game 0ad. As such, they will bear some of the characteristics of the Celts.

    My interest in the Celts grew out of the article cited. Those who know me well will see several things herein that have influenced how I've proceeded toward certain aspects of design of the game (helmets, anyone?). :) My interest in the Iberians as a separate 'cultural entity' grew out of an article I'd read concerning Proconsul Nobilior's dies aster in Military History magazine.... later much 'amplified' from what I was also able to learn from or through discussion with Piteas who is a professional historian on our team. :o

  22. Celtic Stuff

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Why.. you're welcome, Klaas. :)

    You know, I really gotta say that I was sort of 'thrilled' to find out that the Druids were 'more' than just priests doing magikal stuff, as well as other good things about the Celts. :) I once opined that I thought that it would have been kinda kewl to have lived as a Celt back during the La Tene period.... which dovetails just about perfectly with 0ad Part 1.

    The Celts of the last half of the 1st Millenium B.C. established a cultural hegemony that extended from Spain to Anatolia and The North Sea to the Mediterranean. They were at their apogee about the 3rd C., and have been called 'The Founders of Europe'. Ceasar's Gallic subjugation over an 8 year period at the end of that millenium, when he claimed to have killed 1.2 million of them, spelt the deathknell for their form of civilisation. It is interesting to note that, with the coming of Roman Law, women lost their equality status relative to men and that it has taken more than 2,000 years for them to recoup that, in part.

  23. Celtic Stuff

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I sort of doubt that anyone really knows how the Druids might have dressed. They are, of course, usually depicted in the popular literature as having worn long flowing robes ala Merlin the Magician.... but I've sort of got my doubts about all that (unless the weather was doing its cold thing).

    What most people don't understand about them, again a misconception foisted upon us by pop culture cheap shots and misaprehensions of the Romans, is that the Druids were what we might call the "upper middle class" or even "high society" of society in their times... and that they had various and sundry occupations. Well, everyone knows that they were some kind of priests, right, and to a certain extent that IS right. That is, some Druids were the holders and purveyors of religious knowledge, the readers of the tossed runes. But not all Druids were 'priestly types', though all were held in high esteem by their peoples. They were the 'teachers', the 'educated ones', and you could as soon find a Druid man or woman (the Celts didn't abide much with sexist attitudes) who was the local apothecary and healer, as another Druid who the master of animal husbandry, some of the warrior crafts and skills, or building and construction 'trades', you name it... there were Druid 'specialists' in whatever it was that their society needed. So the idea Druid really does move beyond that of just a priestly individual, and indeed, a Druid could have been a master smith, or iron maker.

    Oh yeah, and it is said that it took up to 20 years of study and practice in order for one to attain to the title of Druid. My goodness... that's just about as long an 'education' as it takes to become a board-certified medical doctor, a fully frocked priest, an architect with portfolio, or a journeyman steelmaker in the Union, or biermeister at the brewery even today! :)

    So, what's new under the sun, aside from a bit of technological innovation, eh? :)

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