oshron

i know theres alot in the link, but that was just to give you ideas in case you felt there were some civs missing as for stealth units, its not a common trait among regular units. the only ones that have it initially are sniper units (but they have another special trait where they can see and be seen at a distance by other snipers), but it later expands to stealth aircraft and futuristic stealth frigates (taking that term literally ). theres also diving units, ie submarines, that become invisible when theyre completely submerged but are revealed if they are close to an enemy warship (they cant be seen by aircraft) and when theyre attacking. subs would also surface when they arent in motion, thus making them vulnerable to attack (later on, theres some other units that can attack subs while theyre underwater, but at first theyre only vulnerable to other subs while underwater)

well if you have unit classes (so that the same units are used by all civilizations but with different names and appearances) and forbidden units (so that no one civilization has every unit class), you can certainly have it so that some unit classes are unavailable and a unique unit takes their place with special powers, what i mainly mean here would be "special attacks" that arent exactly fantastical like in AOM, but provide significant benefits. as i mentioned before, the Yankee unique unit "Indian Scout" is an 'invisible' unit. this would be one of the more common examples of special abilities, and it would go to "spy" type units like ninja or secret police (ie, nazi gestapo) while some regular units have them (snipers, stealth aircraft--whats the point of calling something a stealth bomber if it isnt actually stealthy?). another one i came up with is the ability "Go Incognito" where a unit will disguise itself as an enemy citizen and walk into their town undetected, only to reveal themselves and attack when they are close enough to their target. this would, again, go for such units as gestapo and ninja as for mentioning the turtle-ship and other such units, you could, as i said before, make them virtually the same as a later unit class, albeit with a unique appearance (the turtle-ship could be the same class as an Ironclad) and have them present for as long as they historically were. this would mean that the koreans would get a unique Ironclad warship earlier than most or all other civilizations. my Confederate CSS H.L. Hunley is another prime example; every other civilization has to wait until WWI before they get proper submarines (which before then are represented by Torpedo Boats but are functionally the same, except for their exposure to surface ships) here's what i would change for your eras here: ANCIENT PERIOD 1. Prehistoric Era: Stone Age 2. Prehistoric Era: Copper Age (instead of tool age; i think you should probably start around the neolithic instead) 3. Ancient Era: Bronze Age 4. Ancient Era: Iron Age 5. Classical Era 6. Hellenistic Era (you dont always have to have something as an Age with an Era) PRE-MODERN PERIOD 7. Medieval Era: Dark Age 8. Medieval Era: Feudal Age 9. Renaissance Era (you could extend this to include the Age of Discovery as well, i guess) 10. Colonial Era 11. Enlightenment Era 12. Revolutionary Era EARLY-MODERN/MODERN PERIOD 13. Industrial Era 14. Imperial Era 15. World War I Era 16. Interwar Era 17. World War II Era 18. Modern Era: Cold War Age OR Cold War Era 19. Modern Era: Information Age OR Modern Era if you wanted to simplify things a little bit, you COULD just combine the three world war eras into just a collective "World War Era" or "Great War Era" EDIT: theres a thread on the Historum message board about a "civilization list" that theyre compiling that you could use to get ideas for civilizations. im not sure if youll need to register or not, but heres the link to the thread: http://www.historum.com/showthread.php?t=14916

and its undeniably simpler for me to cover the "modern" period with what i already have i could also later on share some of the units from my mythology idea, which covers the ancient and medieval periods of different cultures also, i feel i must say this right now: with camel units in Atlas, im not planning to limit it to just the Camel Archer and Camel Cavalry; in the Revolutionary Era, they are both replaced by the Heavy Camelry unit, which technically upgrades from Camel Cavalry but now fills the ranged role of the archer and the power role of the regular camel. basically, gunpowder camelry. this is because camels ARE still used today, even if they arent as important on the battlefield. if nothing else, they can be used as a less-expensive desert alternative to tanks or even serve as aesthetic units for scenarios, like just a military policeman sitting on a camel in the background EDIT: oh, and another thing i recommend for Pyrogenesis: DONT do what Civilization did for unique units. try to find unique units for that civilizations ENTIRE history instead of just their most famous time, even if you have to go for a stretch or outright fictional units to fill in some of them. and try to make them ABSOLUTELY unique. either make the soldier as unique as you possibly can to differentiate them from a contemporary unit(give them special powers or special bonuses vs. units aside from contemporaries) or make them virtually the same as a later unit but make them available sooner. as an example, one Confederate unique unit i have set down is the CSS H. L. Hunley, the very first submarine to sink ships during a war, which happened to be the American Civil War. as soon as i saw this, i KNEW i had to give the Confederates this early submarine: its an advantage over every other civilization in Atlas. you should also try to make your unique units be of the same class as another unit. for example, a Samurai should have the same unit class as a Swordsman. with my Yankee faction, based on actual history i learned of while doing research for the Sioux, i decided to make their first unique unit the Indian Scout (which was an actual division of the US Army at one point), which is virtually the same as a Heavy Skirmisher unit except that he has a larger line of sight, moves faster, and is an Invisible unit (that meaning that he can't be seen by the enemy except when he is very near enemy units or buildings; this is one of the more common abilities)

hey ive been doing a bit more work into my personal project (from now on in this thread, ill be referring to it by name, Atlas, for simplicity). im working out some of the units right now and have only just finished the ones for the first era, the renaissance. ill gladly share them with you after im completely done with them. a fair amount of them predate the renaissance but were in use at the time i also have the idea of "maximum extent" meaning that some units are only available for a certain amount of time to a civilization as well as there being forbidden classes. for example, the Hand Cannonneer unit ive devised is available from the Renaissance to the Victorian Era: Industrial Age (approx. 1870 - 1890), but for most civilizations it can upgrade into Grenadier earlier than that. for some civilizations, the grenadier wont be available until later than the Colonial Era (when it first becomes available in Atlas) or at all, so those civilizations can continue to use the Hand Cannonneer until the next stage of development, if there is one at all. this would probably apply to some far eastern civilizations like the chinese and then upgrade to the third in the Heavy Infantry line, the AP (Armor-Piercing) Rifleman oh, another thing i have in mind for Atlas is further alternative history in which some animals dont become extinct, as in some recently extinct animals are available in the editor, ie dodos, moas, tasmanian tigers, quaggas, and the like. i was also planning to make it so that dinosaurs and other prehistoric life are in there as well. its for ANOTHER little project where i had the idea to recreate King Kong or Jurassic Park in the game, or to enact an alternative zoology idea concerning the americas and the bering land bridge i think ultimately your Pyrogenesis and my Atlas will be seperate, but we should still collaborate and brainstorm; id be more than willing to help you out wherever youd need it EDIT: okay, here's the renaissance and pre-renaissance units. feel free to use these to springboard your own ideas: Archer (generic bowman, light infantry) Battering Ram (wooden siege weapon) Camel Archer (bow-wielding man on a camel, camel & ranged cavalry; this is basically meant for societies that mostly used camels instead of horses) Camel Cavalry (a man with various melee weapons on a camel, camel & melee cavalry; fills the functions of both light and heavy horses from western cultures, all camels have bonuses vs. horses) Cannon (the earliest gunpowder siege weapon, siege gun; cant fire over obstacles) Catapult (wooden layover from the middle ages, wooden siege & artillery) Citizen (backbone economic unit, comes in male and female varieties) Fishing Ship (backbone naval economic) Galleon (first warship, wooden warship & "cruiser"; general-purpose warship and progenitor of the cruiser line of warships) Halberdier (polearm infantry, medium & mid-range infantry; progenitor of the rapid-firing infantry units like the machine gun) Hand Cannonneer (first gunpowder foot soldier, heavy infantry; progenitor of the armor-piercing infantry units) Heavy Cavalry (armored melee cavalry, horse & melee cavalry; this would be a unit like a knight or cataphract and later upgrades into a dragoon) Holy Man (generic religious unit; this games version of a Priest is different for each civilization, like the italians would have a catholic priest while the israelis would have a rabbi; these would ideally change as you go through the ages, like for Pyrogenesis a british Holy Man would start as a druid and then become a catholic priest and finally a protestant monk, or the like) Horse Archer (generic ranged cavalry) Landing Craft (special canoe unit that can be trained and deployed from warships to land troops; realistically, a modern warship would have to properly dock at a Shipyard to let off troops, so Landing Craft let soldiers and citizens off at any shore where they do not hold a shipyard. think D-Day) Light Cavalry (virtually the same as heavy cavalry but without the extra armor) Merchant & Merchant Ship (generic trade units; Merchants will ideally become Cargo Trucks later on) Messenger (diplomat) Militia (generic emergency soldier for when your town is being overrun. think Red Dawn) Skirmisher (javelin-throwing light infantry, later becomes a light rifleman) Swordsman (initial line infantry; it doesnt necessarily have to be a sword and can vary with each civilization, so it could be a club or an axe or something along those lines) Trebuchet (standalone wooden siege that operates virtually the same as in AOK) War Canoe ("skirmishing" warship) Whaling Boat (early whaling ship available to some cultures; whaling becomes widely available in the Victorian Era: Gilded Age) EDIT 2: also, upon further thought on the subject, maybe a few strategic resources wouldnt be too bad an idea, but here's another similar idea. instead of capturing, say, a uranium deposit and having that allow nuclear weaponry, there could instead be special, VERY expensive buildings that you must build in order to enable certain units. for instance, a building representing a nuclear program would be required to enable nuclear weapons. there would certainly have to be other types, but nuclear is the only one that comes to mind at the moment

the main idea is that these are more last resort that only become available after a certain time period is reached. maybe some other factions will be able to get them earlier, and theyre very inefficient compared to just mining oil, but they would be there not even that; there should be a limit of just two or three to a player PERIOD as well as huge costs making it functionally similar to the regular ships seems like the best way. another thought is that the player could possibly zoom out to a "second level" that counts as space in which space ships can move, but that would be a bit too difficult, methinks. after all, we're not making Spore. but i was also thinking that some other units not originally intended for space could be made, like there could be space-enabled mecha and special nuclear bombers that can be launched from space ships, though there would still be limits, like they cant survive long in the vacuum of space and constantly lose health while out therethe other ideas to go along with space ships was also to include other space elements and not just space ships and a few halfassed units like in EE:AOC, it would also include resources in space like asteroids and comets that can be exploited fro resources and extraterrestrial life rather than just a few new types of terrain and crystals to replace trees. think alien wildlife from star wars or avatar or whatever else you want as what you could expect. i had the idea of letting space-enabled units first becoming available in the cold war portion of the game, but only exploration units: Satellites (in the initial release as scouting units), Space Shuttles (which later become commercial space ships), and Astronauts, and only astronauts can get into space shuttles. imagine an astronaut disembarking from a space shuttle on another body in space from a cold war era civilization and coming across aliens (humans on another planet for simplicity of programming) in their middle ages who fire arrows at him, only for him to return fire with a pistol (just a simple defense mechanism for the game), or possibly disembarking on a jungle moon and encountering alien wildlife. its only in the Interplanetary Age that you would be able to send soldiers and citizens to another planet to exploit its resources and colonize it i still dont really like the "Research" or "Knowledge" or "Technology" resource. but Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy, and Gold sound good. we can just make the nuclear ones that i devised have their energy cost be their combined former energy and uranium costs; nuclear weaponry should still be expensive as all hell also, though perhaps inaccurate, by the "post-modern era" all civilizations should get nuclear weaponry, though some get theirs beforehand (like all the countries who were working on nukes in WWII get an atomic bomber in that time period even though only the americans succeeded before the war ended, so that means that there should also be nazi/german WWII nuclear bombers while others who worked on theirs afterwards get theirs in later time period (like the zulu and israelis get theirs sometime in the cold war era). all civilizations being able to acquire them is for balance well thats why ive decided to redo mine so that certain civs only become available after a certain time period is achieved. with the nazis, it could perhaps be stretched back a bit further than before they actually rose to power. i once had ideas before that they become available very early based on the "evidence" that they manufactured to support their ideology (ex: a medieval nazi civilization would be the generic "aryans" from before they reportedly became "corrupted" by interbreeding with other peoples while the soviets would be carbon copies of the russians but without references to nobility or empires). but ive decided that it would be better if they became available only when they historically appeared (and not just when they came to power, ie "American Colonies") what i had thought (with the narrower modern parts) was that there would be one advantage and one disadvantage for each "Period" of the game relevent to that people's history (as i mentioned before) even though they apply to that faction through the entire game. i think there should be just one unique tech available at any time during each period (and possibly available from then on if it is applicable, like a german "Unrestricted Submarine Warfare" tech). as for unique units, i again had it divided into spans of time, usually related to how many spans of 100 years or so and then applied to the eras in the game, but that wont be the case now that it goes for a longer period of time. what i had for unique units was that there were a total of 8 (remember, this is for a narrower modern period): the first for the Renaissance/Exploration/Colonial Eras, then for the Enlightenment/Revolutionary, then for the Victorian, the "World War" period (WWI, Interwar, and WWII), the Cold War, the Modern, then the future (Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age onwards), and then the eighth is the "filler" unique unit available during any era in the game depending on what else seems to be missing. with the extension backwards in time, there should probably also be additional unique units, but for greater spans of time: one for the ancient period as a whole (because there werent as many technological military achievements as in the modern era), one and another for the medieval period (which could also extend into the renaissance period)ill also now go over the Periods, Eras, and Ages that i neglected to before: ANCIENT PERIOD -- Prehistoric Era: Paleolithic Age -- Prehistoric Era: Neolithic Age -- Ancient Era: Copper Age -- Classical Era: Bronze Age -- Classical Era: Iron Age if theres just one Age to an Era, it should just be a single Era with no Age attached (so instead of "Ancient Era: Copper Age" it should probably be "Primitive/Prehistoric/Ancient Era: Stone Age", then ":Copper Age", which then goes on to "Classical Era: Bronze Age" and ":Iron Age" MEDIEVAL PERIOD -- Medieval Era: Dark Age -- Medieval Era: Feudal Age -- Medieval Era: Renaissance Era no changes here, but for consistency it should be "Renaissance Age" COLONIAL PERIOD (from here on are my own time periods) -- Exploration Era ? -- Colonial Era -- Enlightenment EraAbsolutism? Exploration Era was formerly split up in Columbian and Magellanic, but i decided to combine them. this is the earlier time period at which america is discovered by the europeans. the enlightenment era is kinda there because thats around when america achieved independence PRE-MODERN PERIOD -- Revolutionary EraNapoleon? -- Victorian Era: Gilded Age ? -- Victorian Era: Industrial Age -- Victorian Era: Imperial Age Does it have to be "Victorian Age"? i DID have a Napoleonic Era preceding the Revolutionary Era but later combined the two. its the "Revolutionary Era" because during that time is when alot of revolutions and rebellions against major powers of the time took place, like the greek war of independence. it starts with the french revolution and goes on to the american civil war "Victorian" is just the best Era name i could come up with and think it fits the most. the gilded age is kind of intended for teh american civil war, even though its not technically accurate (pretty much the only one of all the eras, though) but perhaps the industrial and imperial could be combined into just Imperial Age. the imperial age is the time immediately preceding WWI and ends in 1914 MODERN PERIOD -- World War I Era -- Interwar Era ? -- World War II Era -- Cold War Era: Space Age? -- Cold War Era: Atomic Age -- Modern Era: Information Age -- Modern Era: Digital Age Differences between Info and Digital? the interwar era is underappreciated i think. during this time is when a good portion of new units come into play and is also when the nazis and alot of other fascist countries rose to power, like spain and italy, and also when the soviet union arose (for the game, though, i think the soviets should come into play when the bolsheviks were formed). its also the depression era. i hate how in empire earth that time period is just skipped over to go directly from WWI to WWII the space age is in reference to the space race. i know its a bit confusing. this is also the era when satellites become available i cant really think of any real differences between the information and digital culturally speaking, but the dating is from 1989-2012 for the information and 2012-2039 for the digital. its in reference to a nostradamus prediction of a 27 year long war beginning in 2012 which. the digital is basically just the major departure from actual history to fictional future (though some futuristic mecha become available to a few civilizations as early as the information age; theres forbidden classes in my plans, too, so not all civilizations get mecha early on) FUTURE PERIOD -- Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age -- Post-modern Era: Cybernetic Age -- Khrusionitic Era: Global Age -- Khrusionitic Era: Interplanetary Age* -- Khrusionitic Era: Interstellar Age* i see that you had no objections or question here. ill clarify anyway in case you werent sure. the synthetic age is when artificial weaponry and genetic engineering come into play (hence synthetic). plus, it sounds much better than the original name, "Mechanized Age". the cybernetic age is in reference to Ghost in the Shell. this age is when soldiers would be further subdivided into "Prosthetic/Cyborg" and "Flesh-and-Blood" groups. prosthetic units would have more armor and health but be more expensive. its possible that the units could be individually upgraded into prosthetic soldiers, but it would be expensive to do so. these wouldnt be obvious cyborgs like the terminator or sergei molotov from EE1, they would still look virtually the same but would just have more health and armor and no longer be slowed by weather, and but graphically they would now bleed oil or some other liquid besides blood when shot and, in some cases, possibly explode upon death since khrusionite is no longer a resource, ill probably change the name to "Futuristic Era". in the initial release, since theres only one Age to the Futuristic Era, it wont have the subtitling of "Global Age" but it gets that in the expansion when the Interplanetary and Interstellar Ages are brought into the mix. the major intent here is that, ideally, the Global Age would be when the world is united under one banner and nationality, whether it be american, british, nazi, chinese, or whatever. the interplanetary age would be like in cowboy bebop when the civilization further expands to other planets in the solar system. this goes on for a few hundred years and then goes on to the interstellar age when they now inhabit many different star systems instead of just their native one. there could also possibly be "false factions" like in my mythology idea to simulate different alien races, ideally one for each civilization and preferrably of original design. ill go into detail on false factions later. btw, im actually doing a bit of research, surprisingly, with the game Spore to figure out what some of the systems around Earth's are for a seperate project, but it would work here, too ...i seem to have lost my train of thought

thanks; i got the idea while reading an alternative history book in which the US was allied with Germany against an alliance of Confederates, British-Canadians, and French in this order: -- a more generic "Energy" is just because energy in real life isnt ONLY derived from oil, though it IS a major source. its kindof intended for the future period when green energy would become available, and some other methods of gathering energy aside from oil come into play, such as windmills and solar plants (though these would at least at first be less effective than oil; i had a kind of end-of-the-world thing in mind where resources are almost completely depleted and you have to resort to harvesting plankton and using wind energy and the like to feed and power your civilization) -- i was planning for uranium to be in there to kind of limit how many nuclear units a player could get. there would be definitive limits on the number of atomic bombers and the like a player could get, but having uranium as well as gold, iron, and energy required for it would also restrict how many one could make. if you remember in empire earth, atomic bomber planes in that only cost 700 gold and iron; you could EASILY mass produce them. other units i had ideas for the use of uranium would be nuclear subs (which would be the advanced form of initial submarines) and later on vehicles such as other ships, possibly some mecha and unique units in the futuristic portions of the game, and space ships -- "Khrusionite" (KROO-tion-ITE) is based on the also fictional mineral from Code Geass called Sakuradite that is the primary means by which their advanced technology (mecha) are created. its supposed to be something like philosopher's stone in properties and i simply changed the name to the more credible-sounding Khrusionite because, in all honesty, "Sakuradite" sounds REALLY lame. in retrospect, maybe khrusionite IS a step too far in terms of resources -- my intent with having seperate gold and iron(or another generic metal; maybe the name could change as you advance, say, from copper to tin to bronze and so on?) was that gold is used to pay soldiers and to fund research or the creation of vehicles (so there would be gold requirements for most or all vehicles but, for simplicity, not for all infantry, at least not for Line Infantry) while iron/metal is used to make the weapons themselves, to make the swords and armor and bullets of infantry and to create the "shells" of vehicles like tanks and planes -- for strategic resources, i personally think that would just complicate regular gameplay, but perhaps there could be a special game mode for that instead where, depending on the time period of the game at the time, you have to control different locations with different resources, or there could be special resource sites that never run out but disappear after a certain era is reached and must be captured like a building to be exploited, like a special Uranium Mine must be captured by soldiers in order to be exploited by your citizens yeah, thats kinda what i was planning, too, several distinct classes which have a major role, though some of these change over time (the Heavy Infantry class, for example, in my modern era one, starts off as a Hand Cannonneer but eventually works his way up to becoming an armor-piercing and later anti-tank soldier, the Bazooka; if we go back further, his role would be different at the beginning but preferrably advance onwards to the anti-tank soldier) the reason some of those mentioned factions are missing is because the one i was planning starts in the renaissance period, and some of them are encompassed in other factions: i was originally planning for egypt to be covered by the turkish(then Ottoman) faction, but now its included in teh Saracen faction instead, and one of their wonders is actually the pyramid of giza in reference to this, even though its much older than the renaissance periodwith some of the others, like Israel, though the name is "Israelis" and in specific reference to the modern State of Israel, it actually covers the jewish community as a whole and possibly the conspiracy theory of the jews controlling the world (hey, if the nazis, confederates, and soviets are included, why not?), but especially refers to the times when the jews were forced into ghettos in europe, so there could be some reference to the golem of prague (maybe as a relic or editor-only unit) and almost certainly to the jewish partisan movements of WWII, and one of their heroes is Mordecai Anielewicz, who was a Polish Jew. i would personally prefer if the alternative history factions were included because, for instance with the nazi and german factions, though they are virtually the same country, land, and people, their ideologies were distinct and it would also allow for different options with their military--for instance, the regular germans could continue using poison gas as a weapon. i was also planning for the military of the german faction to be based on the wehrmacht while the nazi one was specifically based on the SS. with the russian and soviet factions, it the difference between an empire and a communist dictatorship. i also have distinct "Cultural Powers" in mind for alot of them that are more fitting of a specific ideology and time in a country's history than the entire thing (though since it would now cover a much broader span of history, it could be that there are two powers to each faction, one for the ancient-medieval part and the other for the modern-future part): for example, the russian power is "Scorched Earth", which removes beneficial buildings from their land when an enemy captures it, while the soviet power is "Iron Curtain", which prevents enemies from entering soviet territory for a short time. the german power is "Unification" which makes their buildings stronger for each territory while the nazis is "Blitzkrieg" which lets them amass an army and mobilize it very quickly for a brief time and thanks for the compliments on those other ones i feel africa is underappreciated in RTS games. unfortunately, the only other black african (as opposed to arab african like egypt) faction that i can see deserving of inclusion is Congolese, for the people of the congo region. there could also conceivably be a Masaai and Somalian faction, but i think it would be REALLY hard to differentiate those from the other african factions or from each other my thoughts for unique technologies were that each civilization would get one for a period of time that they could research, preferrably stretched out over the course of the game (ie one in teh ancient, one for medieval, one for pre-modern, one for modern, and one for future. or something like that). with civilization traits, my idea was that these traits would all be available from the very beginning even if they didnt apply at the very beginning (like a trait that benefits planes) or in later times (benefiting horse cavalry, as opposed to vehicle cavalry) and that there would be two for each general time period, one advantage and one disadvantage relevent to that time period. here's another example: in relevence to the earlier parts of the game, the mongols advantages for hunting/gathering and for cavalry/mobility, but they get disadvantages for farming and buildings. though these are specifically in reference to their old nomadic ways, the traits persist to the modern and futuristic portions of the game. they also have the Cultural Power "Hit-and-Run" which makes it so that their ranged cavalry can attack while in motion. though this is in reference only to their old nomadic horse archers, it applies to ALL cavalry, including tanks later in the game EDIT: and with some of the ancient factions, i think it would be cool if we had them continue into the modern day with their rough equivalents as dominant powers. thats kinda one of the other things with alternative historical factions, like "what if the axis won?" or "what if the soviet union didnt collapse?" or, if you will "what if carthage beat rome and remained in power to this day?". having a phoencian/carthaginian faction would also allow us another african faction, and would especially allow us to focus on a maritime and mercantile one rather than an infantry civilization as would most likely be the case with a congolese or zulu faction we could also go with another idea that certain factions only become available at a certain time but are available consistently after that (for instance, the roman/italian faction can only be played from, say, the bronze age onwards while the american faction only comes into play at the time when american was first successfully colonized (as the "American Colonists" faction; i also think it would be best to name each faction after their people consistently) which later becomes the "American" faction for the time between their independence and their civil war, at which point that faction becomes known as the "Yankee" faction and then the "Confederate" faction also becomes available. with the scandinavian faction, they would conceivably start off as the "Vikings" but eventually become a more generic "Scandinavian" in reference to all the nordic countries. this would allow for alternative history but also be more accurate. it would also simplify things for both of us but especially for me because i was kinda struggling coming up with pre-modern nazi heroes

because culturally the vikings were closer to the american colonists than the american natives were

okay, time for some attempted collaboration military should still be the more important focus, but yes, there should be a fair amount of non-military as well. i think forcing an economic or diplomatic victory should be lower on the list of priorities. however, i came up with an idea for in-game diplomacy: the Embassy building and its accompanying Messenger unit, a diplomatic unit. acting in much the same way as a merchant unit and a market, sending a messenger between your embassy and another player's civic center allows you to form an alliance with them. i also had the idea that forming an alliance allows players to share unique units (ex: if an american player allied with an aztec player, the american would receive aztec jaguar warriors while the aztec would receive american minutemen) what i personally came up with for resources are: Food (for all non-mechanical units), Wood (for most or all buildings and many earlier mechanical units, ie ships and siege), Stone (for many buildings and all defensive structures), Gold (to pay soldiers or fund research), Iron (to make weapons; i actually dont like how 0ad merged gold and iron into one resource, but this could be recombined into just Metal again to reduce complexity), Energy (instead of just Oil; this encompasses all forms of energy including electricity from all sources), Uranium (for nuclear units and some later vehicles and mechanical weapons), and Khrusionite (a fictional resource intended for use with futuristic weapons) then again, the eight that i have could be simplified into six: Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy, and Uranium. i REALLY dont like the concept of "knowledge" or "tech points" as resources. maybe im just old fashioned that way. i personally dont like this idea so much. im not sure why, but i just dont i came up with alot of unit types and lines of advancement, too, but there are WAAY too many for me to list right now non-generic names sounds like a cool idea to me. but i can see some complications arising for that, like a feudal era for the japanese extended further than those of other cultures. i myself split the time period up into Eras, which can be further divided into Ages (ex: Modern Era: Information Age and Modern Era: Digital Age), and these are in turn informally divided into Periods (for the one im working on, "Colonial Period" "Early Modern Period" "Modern Period" and "Future Period" here's the changes i would make to your time periods, going on my template and just on what you put down here (my own ideas would require more research): ANCIENT/MEDIEVAL PERIOD -- Prehistoric Era: Stone Age -- Prehistoric Era: Copper Age -- Classical Era: Bronze Age -- Classical Era: Iron Age -- Medieval Era COLONIAL PERIOD (from here on are my own time periods) -- Renaissance Era -- Exploration Era -- Colonial Era -- Enlightenment Era PRE-MODERN PERIOD -- Revolutionary Era -- Victorian Era: Gilded Age -- Victorian Era: Industrial Age -- Victorian Era: Imperial Age MODERN PERIOD -- World War I Era -- Interwar Era -- World War II Era -- Cold War Era: Space Age -- Cold War Era: Atomic Age -- Modern Era: Information Age -- Modern Era: Digital Age FUTURE PERIOD -- Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age -- Post-modern Era: Cybernetic Age -- Khrusionitic Era: Global Age -- Khrusionitic Era: Interplanetary Age* -- Khrusionitic Era: Interstellar Age* *these two only come up in an expansion pack advancing by researching technologies sounds cool, but i dont think it should be the only requirement; you should also need a large amount of resources and certain buildings some of these civ advancements are cool, and are some that i wouldnt think of, but others i dont agree with so much. what i had in mind was to have several Civilization Traits that cover the whole of their time period even if its just in reference to one part of their history (for example, my Mongol faction is a cavalry oriented civilization intended to refer to their use of horses, but their cavalry bonuses also affect tanks later on). i also think there should be more, including some alternative history factions. it should also all add up to a nice even-looking number for some ideas, im gonna combine your ideas and mine right here and now with whatever i already know of: Austro-Hungarians (Huns/Magyars >> Habsburgs >> Austria-Hungary >> Austria/Hungary) Aztecs Balkans (Greeks >> Byzantines/Bulgarians >> Greeks/Bulgarians/Serbians) Brazilians British (Celts >> English >> Imperial British) Chinese (various ancient dynasties >> Ming Chinese >> Qing Chinese >> PRC) Confederates (Vinlanders >> United Americans >> Southern/Confederate Americans) Dutch French Germans (Teutons >> Prussians >> Imperial Germans >> Federal Germans) Indians (Mauryans >> Mughals >> Colonial India >> Modern Indians) Iranians Irish Israelis (Hebrews >> Judaeans >> European Jews >> Israel)) Italians Japanese Koreans Mongols Nazis Russians (Slavs >> Imperial Russians >> Federal Russians) Saracens Scandinavians Sioux Songhai Soviets Spanish Turks Vietnamese Yankees (Vinlanders >> United Americans >> Northern Americans) Zulu again, these are just off teh top of my head

we could perhaps go for a bit of fictionalization in some of those cases. for instance, a medieval american faction could be a "Vinlander" faction based on the viking colonization of north america or we could divide it in one or two parts within the game: "Ancient-Medieval" and "Modern-Future", or something like that. alternatively, the two could be two seperate games but share alot of content and concepts heres a link to a thread where we can take this discussion: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12931

i narrowed my modern mod ideas to range from the renaissance to the year 3039 (from the "Modern Era: Digital Age" onwards would be a fictional future time period and kinda goes on a nostradamus prediction concerning a 27-year war starting in 2012); theres 18 Eras (instead of phases; these specifically cover a time period rather than phases of development) in the initial release and 2 more are added in the expansion which would delve into space. here's what i personally planned as civilizations, a total of 30 for different regions: Austro-Hungarians Aztecs (Mexicans) Balkans (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians) Brazilians British (+Canadians & Australians) Chinese Confederates Dutch French Germans (minus the Nazis) Indians Iranians Irish Israelis Italians Japanese Koreans Mongols Nazis (supremacist/fascist Germans) Russians (minus the Soviets) Saracens (any Arab or Muslim nations that do not have their own faction) Scandinavians (Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Danes, Icelanders) Sioux Songhai (collective West African) Soviets Spanish (and Spanish-speaking Central & South America, minus Mexico) Turks Vietnamese Yankees Zulu with this, pretty much the entire world is represented. for the actual release, if it ever happens, the countries could be divided into packs instead of releasing all 30 at once ill gladly go into greater detail in the thread i already made for my modern mod. perhaps we could collaborate on a project and even merge our two ideas?

it was the inclusion of a Healer as a regular unit in one of the mod's expansions; there are Healers as regular units in 0ad, but i decided a long time ago to cut them out of the mythology mod because i wanted to include alot of heroes and sometimes myth units that were capable of healing their allies in the same way a healer would. but i was planning to give a unique Healer unit to the aztec major god Chalchiuhtlicue as her unique super unit, which would be a mass-production healer that serves as a field medic. if Healers were included as regular units, they would defeat the purpose of chalchiuhtlicue's healer unit

ive also been working on side projects of that basic idea: my mythology game is basically a mythical recast of 0ad (same "mortal" units, plus some additional ones like magicians) with a more ambiguous time period (the greeks are of the mycenaean period while teh norse are of the viking age, for instance); my "modern" game is kinda like empire earth but covers a narrower time period, from the renaissance onwards (so no pre-medieval units like shortswords or cavemen) and also emphasizes fictionalization. one thing i actually hated about empire earth was that the civilizations werent really unique. they had their bonuses, and thats about it. they didnt have unique units like AOK or EE2, and they didnt have unique appearances. i hated that if you wanted to play as medieval japan you had to live with european buildings and units and no people that are even remotely japanese aside from the samurai and ashikagu arquebus. EE2 kinda solved this, but it just wasnt as enjoyable all-around, and they still didnt speak their native language and the civs were basically carbon copies of each other: no forbidden unit types, and the unique units were literally just beefed up versions of pre-existing units; nothing especially unique about them outside of their looks in both games, pretty much the entire world is represented: nearly every major mythology is included in the mythology mod (the only one missing is some kind of north american native civ; id LOVE to include them but cant find much in the way of pacific northwest mythology), and in the modern mod, pretty much every well-known modern nation is included to some extent. ive even got some alternative history civs like the soviets which technically allows representation of even larger areas

you raise a good point. yknow, one of the things that i both liked and disliked about AOM was that not all civilizations got a healer unit; only the egyptians were guaranteed to get one while the greeks could worship apollo to get a special technology that turns their temples into hospitals and the norse could worship freyja to get a valkyrie to heal maybe ill take out the healer unit after all. that also simplifies things for the aztecs

well thats part of the criteria, but i also want to go with some more historical evidence: if there was significant evidence of it in the history of that country, then they get it. like the polynesians probably wont get one(not sure why, but im not quite sure theyll get one) this actually also brings up a bit of a complication for the aztecs: i now need to come up with a new demigod unit for chalchiuhtlicue, the goddess of water, who previously had a medic as her superunit

i also suggested something like this as a 0ad part 3. since part one focuses on rome and civilizations that encountered rome from 500bc to 1bc, and the second focuses on ones from 1ad to 500ad, the next logical step would be to have a third pack that introduces "non-roman" civilizations from both period (such as the yamato japanese, han chinese, mauryan indians)

an idea just occurred to me. i know that fishing ships arent planned for the initial release, but there are schools of fish present for aesthetics. yknow how citizens could net fish from the shore in AOK? why couldnt such a method of gathering food be included here? the fish could have a food count but simply not be able to be fished on the open ocean; like with whales, you would have to wait until they get into the shallows so that shoreline units can attack them, and then fishing ships are brought in later. it could also be reasoned that its too early for fishing ships chronologically for each of these pre-AD civilizations

thanks anyway. i think ill make the unit a phalangite anyway

thanks to Jeru, i was able to get names for almost every single semitic entity for the game! im about to do a run-down of the carthaginians for 0ad to get names for the buildings, but the names for most of the units are down now ill also just run their super units by everyone again: in the city phase, all semitic players get the Sacred Band unit; in the Empire Phase, Tanit gets the carthaginian war elephant, Yahweh gets the Gibborim (iirc, "mighty" in hebrew and refers to a powerful warrior), and Dagon gets the Iron Chariot of course, all of these are properly translated into their native languages the semites also get these citizen-soldiers and other basic units: Ish Kherev (a warrior wielding a Canaanite sickle-sword, this weapon was adapted by the Egyptians and later used by the Hebrews as well) "Spearman" (I actually forgot to ask Jeru to translate this one for me so I'm hoping he'll get back to me on this soon; this'll just be a generic period spear-wielding soldier, maybe a phalangite-type unit similar to a hoplite) Qashat (a generic archer, possibly wielding a Hyksos composite bow. This works for both the Hebrews AND the Canaanites because the Hyksos presumably came from around the same location as the Canaanites--they were an Asiatic tribe--and the Hebrews adapted a lot of Egyptian weapons and tactics, so the composite bow would be among them) Qalla' (slingers were common throughout the ancient world, but this one here is in DIRECT reference to David of the Israelites) Merkavah (a chariot pretty much the same as any other, but this is specifically supposed to be in reference to the Canaanites. Undoubtedly the other Semitic peoples would have used them, but the Canaanites are the only ones that I myself know of to have definitively used them during the Exodus period, inferred from their use of iron chariots. I'm kinda cheating here, though, because for Tanit's bonus, "Mercenaries", one of the mercenary soldiers that can be summoned is a generic "Canaanite Chariot Archer") Ishah (the Semitic Female Citizen) Sokher (the Semitic overland merchant unit) Rofeh (the Semitic Healer unit; I'm come to the decision that Healers, which I've already decided will be left out of at least the initial release of the mythology mod, will not be available to all civilizations because there will be some Heroes, myth units, and God Powers that can restore health, like the Norse Valkyrie or Egyptian Pharaoh or Celtic Druid will be able to heal allied units. With the Semites, I'm still debating whether or not they should get a Healer unit. What do you all think?) 'Amud Esh (the Semitic Standard Bearer, this guy is in direct reference to the legendary cloud that followed the Israelites during the Exodus during the day, which became a pillar of fire at night. I once saw a history program that suggested that, on the assumption that it wasn't an act of God, that the pillar of fire and cloud may have been inspired by a tactic Moses developed that utilized torches on high poles that were carried around by men. They used smoke during the day and fire at night, hence the pillars of cloud/smoke and fire. He's functionally the same as any other Standard Bearer but just uses a tall torch instead of a flag. It could be possible that he also has a flag on there, but that's up in the air. What would be cool is if, under normal lighting conditions, they had just smoke, but under darker conditions, it changed into fire, to stay accurate to the legend and just for a really cool effect in scenarios with a day-night cycle.) Migdal Matzor (the only Semitic siege weapon, essentially the same thing as an Egyptian siege tower. This is kind of for balance since they get almost all of the infantry units and because of their demigod units. Tanit in particular can kind of "cheat" by suddenly being able to get especially powerful versions of every basic citizen-soldier through her Mercenaries bonus and also grants a war elephant, which practically doubles as a siege weapon, and Yahweh's Gibborim is immune to enemy God Powers) Sfinat Sokher (the Semitic naval merchant) Dovrah (the Semitic light warship, this is supposed to be like a Hebrew adaptation of an Egyptian riverboat) Sfinat Qrav (the Semitic medium warship, which I suppose could double as their heavy warship, too. This one is supposed be a Carthaginian warship, a trireme, probably, and should serve as the mainstay of the navy while they are supported by the Dovrah barges, which could possibly carry more soldiers so that the triremes provide covering fire while the barges sail forward and deploy landing troops) Sfinat Dayag (the Semitic fishing ship. This won't be available in the initial release for any faction, but all civilizations get it. This is, again, for balance, even if that civilization never had a big fishing economy, ie, the Slavs and Aztecs. On maps that would be mostly water, fishing economies will become VERY important, so giving a fishing ship to every civilization is just to make things fair)

thanks jeru EDIT: d'oh, there was one that i forgot to list earlier! ill also need a translation for "spearman" EDIT 2: actually, yknow what would be a better translation? "phalangite", because i KNOW that the hebrews and other groups used a phalanx-like formation

thanks, jeru. i just need to figure out what all the semitic units will be EDIT: okay, i think ive got just about all of them. i heard once that moses ended up basing the hebrew army on the egyptian army, so i looked back at what i had for them and gave them most of the same unit classes, with some additions and subtractions, of course. here's the ones i need translation for, then, preferrably into punic because the phoenicians and carthaginians had the most influence of the represented groups in the faction: "sickle-sword" or "sickle-swordsman", or just "swordsman" "archer" or "bowman" or "composite bow" "slinger", or possibly "israelite", "hebrew", or "jew" (this one should be in hebrew; its in reference to david even though slingers were common in the ancient world) "chariot" "woman" (or a similar word if a direct translation of "woman" cant be found, like "lady" or "female") "merchant" (or a similar word) "healer" (or similar) "pillar of fire" or "pillar of smoke" or maybe just "smoke" (for the Standard Bearer unit from an expansion; this is in reference to the possible historical inspiration of the cloud and pillar of fire that followed the israelites during the exodus) "siege tower" "merchant ship" (or similar) "barge" (this one should be in hebrew; this is the light warship based on egypt's riverboats) "warship" (this one in punic; this'll be a carthaginian ship) "fishing ship" or "fisher" or "fisherman" (for the Fishing Ship in an expansion) "war elephant" or just "elephant" ("carthaginian" super unit) "iron chariot" ("canaanite" super unit; this one should probably be in hebrew because, as far as i know, only the hebrews encountered the canaanite iron chariots, but a punic translation would be good, too) i think ill base the buildings on the ones currently going for 0ad's carthaginians just for simplicity. sorry that theres so much

hey, all as you may or may not be aware, ive been doing some work into written designs for a mythology mod for 0ad. the mod will have most of the original game's features, including all of the units having names in their native languages (or in some cases a rough equivalent). anyway, ive been doing alot of the naming already but id like to know where i can find some good translators or dictionaries for each of the languages that will be presented. this can also help other people who are interested in making mods with native languages anyway, im looking for translators or dictionaries for these languages. the catch is that they have to be romanized translations/dictionaries so that you dont need to KNOW the darn language in order to read it (accents and whatnot to letters dont matter to me as long as teh words are legible to people who can read english (thats the only player language im focusing on right now): Ancient Egyptian (if necessary, i could make due with the modern language(s) of egypt. suggestions here?) Welsh (this one is more or less covered, but it would still be helpful) Scottish/Irish (for a few celtic units) Greek ancient Mesopotamian languages (again, a modern language from the region will be a last resort) Old Norse/Icelandic Chinese (which dialect was used during the Qin and Han dynasties, if theres a modern equivalent at all?) Hindi Hittite languages (whatever those may be) Latin (for both the romans and the christians; i plan for this to be the only overlapping language) Mandinkan Punic (for the semitic faction--hebrews, canaanites, AND phoenicians/carthaginians) Hebrew (for some of the semitic units and hebrew-specific stuff) Persian Russian (or an older slavic language if applicable) Polynesian (or rough equivalent; if i can get some from different parts of polynesia--ie hawaii and new zealand--so much the better)

i suppose youre right there. but i plan to have alot of their units be derived from the crusades. i think maybe itll end up that either the not-initial units will be directly based on the crusades, or the units will all be based on the crusades but resemble less than noble soldiers until they get to their elite forms, in which their outfits will be directly based on teh crusades. what do you guys think?

well christianity was a bit more localized than islam was (with islam, youve got peoples from persia, arabia, the levant, and most of africa included, whereas, for the relevent time period, christianity was almost entirely in europe). the reason i was thinking of redating it was, again, because when it started out as a sect of judaism, it was pacifistic and remained as such pretty much until it became rome's state religion the semites are one of few civilizations where i lumped together a few groups. one major god focuses on the Phoenicians and, by extent, the Carthaginians (carthage was originally a phoenician colony); the second focuses on the hebrews; and the third on the canaanites as a whole, but especially on the philistines hindus it is, then

hey, all ive been putting alot of my efforts into my modern RTS lately, but, after starting the turtledove book "The Breath of God" i got inspired to come up with some further ideas for the mythology mod. first and foremost, ive once again renamed the factions. ive decided to cut out their novelty names (though the timelines still apply) and order them based on their former positions in order of the packs theyd be introduced in and what their former place was alphabetically: Egyptians Celts Mesopotamians Greeks Norse Cro-Magnons (first expansion) Chinese (first expansion) Aztecs (first expansion) Japanese (first expansion) Hindus OR Indians* (first expansion) Hittites (second expansion) Romans (second expansion) Christians* (second expansion) Semites (second expansion) Persians (second expansion) Mandinka (third expansion) Slavs (third expansion) Polynesians (third expansion) *im debating whether or not i should change it from hindus to indians. thoughts? *i may decide to redate the christian faction to focus on the crusades especially because the christians were a pacifist cult before they rose to dominance some other ideas i came up with are the inclusion of additional units with new expansions. like all the other units, these would only be available to SOME civilizations and not all of them. the only two ideas i have thus far, though, are Standard Bearers (which grant minor morale boosts to units that can see him; would only go to unified civilizations like the romans and christians and not to more tribal factions like the celts and possibly the greeks, and they could potentially have different flags for each major god, like Zeus would have a thunderbolt, Poseidon would have a trident, and Hades would have a helmet) and Magicians (which would only become available during the Legend Phase for balance and would potentially have different magic powers for each major god, or perhaps just for each civilization, like greek magicians would use lightning while cro-magnons would probably have generic fire or light; this would only be applied if a magician isnt made into a hero for a different faction) the inclusion of magicians is inspired by various turtledove novels in which magic is present, kind of for the idea of recreating those with the mythology mod.

that would probably work with the neutral native tribes that i mentioned before. making them generic villages would probably work as well