[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

On 19/01/2022 at 12:20 PM, wackyserious said:

Only suggestion:

Actual Iberian representation of greaves

Carro de Merida (6th or 3rd century B.C.). 

Vessel from Numancia in the Celtiberian area. 2nd century B.C. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

I have recently learned that the time span we are working with goes from the 6th century BC to the 1st century AD, a longer period than I had imagined.
So I'm going to contribute some new images.

South-eastern Iberian mercenary chief at the ending of the 5th century BC by José Luis García Morán. 

The duel of Porcuna (a couple of sculptures from the 5th century BC) recreated by Carlos Fernández del Castillo. 

[Iberians, Celtiberians, Lusitans, --reference---]

6 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

I think the timeline for the game is between 500 BC-1 A.D

 

Thank you, I had many doubts about that.

[Iberians, Celtiberians, Lusitans, --reference---]

@wackyserious

Here, another depictions of the same author more close to our timeline. Evidently they are about north-eastern Iberian warriors:

"Battle between Iberian warriors and Roman legionaries (3rd century BC)" 

[Iberians, Celtiberians, Lusitans, --reference---]

On 07/01/2022 at 7:38 AM, wackyserious said:

https://artsandculture.google.com/exhibit/la-panoplia-ibérica-en-las-necrópolis-del-ebro-museu-de-les-terres-de-l-ebre/sQKSpLRfQB3xLA?hl=es

The information on the page is fine, perhaps it is too general.

About the warrior in the image, he is from the 5th century BC so I think it is out of our timeline.

The illustrator is the Catalan Francesc Riart, who is sometimes not too "scientific" in his illustrations. 

*the helmet and the armor that the rider wears are from the Celtiberian area. On the other hand, the Iberians would not have cavalry before coming into contact with Carthage, rather warriors who would go mounted to the battlefield.

 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

16 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Are those Hellenistic pteruges? and I might be also seeing linothorax shoulder pads, could it be interpreted as that? A Hellenistic linothorax with arm and lower body pteruges? 

 Yes, that is probably. As far as I know there isn't much information about linothorax apart from the statues and the drawings of the ceramics. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

Some depictions of Iberian armors:

Warrior figurines of Collado de los jardines.4th century B.C. (the one at the left wears some type of paddled shirt.) 

One of the Osuna reliefs been made about the 2nd or 1st century B.C. 

Another of the Osuna reliefs. *One of the warriors wears greaves because he is probably Roman. 

Warriors vessel of Libisosa, made around the 2nd or the 1st century B.C. by iberized Celtiberians, the Carpetanians. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

13 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Very useful, thank you! I saw this on your posts on other forums.

So the large shield boss are from previous centuries, can't we use them for heroes at least?

I suppose that is your design decision, I don't get involved in those things, I only provide information

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

Iberian weaponry evolution.600 to 300 centuries B.C. *Left column: low Andalucia, at the center: High Andalucía and south-east peninsula and, on the right: Catalonia.

Defensive:

Comparison chart between the south and east of Spain and the plateau.

Offensive:

Comparison chart between the south and east of Spain and the plateau.

Source: "Weapons, warriors and battles of the Ancient Iberia" Quesada Sanz. 2010

@wackyserious

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

58 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

The one above can be easily added since we already have texture asset for it what materials could you suggest? Leather? Pelt? Cloth?

What about this type?

Pelt. I didn't have seen something like this before. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

53 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

So chainmail and linothorax could be reserved for elite rank units then? Since in the game we represent rank progression with equipment progression in a way.

The linothorax yes, the chain mail is later and rather associated with spoils of war. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

@wackyseriousThere is only one problem with linothorax and subarmalis, they are represented and mentioned but about the 3rd and 1st centuries BC.
Previously in the south of the peninsula we have representations of a type of padded protection in the shape of an 8 like the one seen in the image:

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

3 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Figura artesanal de Guerrero Celtíbero escala 1/6. pieza única y exclusiva (losviajerosdeltiempo.com)

@wackyseriousThis figure contains some historical mistakes: too little caetra, the falcata (uncommon in the center of the Peninsula), the metal greaves (after the 5th century they were made of leather). 

Celtiberian warrior of the mid-3rd century BC by José Luis García Morán.

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

4 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Also for light armor, are leather vests still okay to be depicted for our units?

I also opt for the following for light armor, supported by the trade and cultural exchanges that was said to have happened.

1.) linothorax

2.) padded clothing (Roman subarmalis? Greek/Egyptian/Eastern padded clothing?)

Also, we have these light armor

Excluding the ones that are depicted as scale armor

I think linothorax and subarmalis are Okey. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

4 hours ago, wackyserious said:

So it can be an ornamental for elite rank units, with only a minimal chance of appearing in unit variations?

We currently use three types of cardiopylax in the game, 1.) circular 2.) square 3.) diamond (seen on the first infantry on the left in the image below. We see evidence for circular ones but the square and diamond ones, could it also be attested for?

It doesn't sound like I have read anything about another type of cardiophylax. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

On 04/01/2022 at 11:23 AM, wackyserious said:

Did I get it, or was it the pteruges that you wanted to be player color?

About Caro's helmet I would like to point out that maybe there is an interpretation error with the crest

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The breastplate (cardiophylax) is also something from an earlier period right? Not in use anymore during the Punic Wars?

Yes, they stopped being used as a defensive weapon in the middle of the 5th century, become an element of ostentation.

Perhaps it could be understood that Carus uses one to emphasize his leadership position.

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

13 hours ago, wackyserious said:

34. Looks really similar to the Montefortino helmet that the Rome faction use in the game, should we use it instead of the Gallic montefortino above or can those two be used interchangeably? 

@wackyseriousThe problem is bronze montefortinoes were introduced in the Peninsula by the Carthaginians during the Punic wars. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

7 hours ago, wackyserious said:

So we'd go with the Roman type? and maybe mix a small variant chance for the Gallic type?

Going back this somehow brings back the issue with the Iberian faction being a combined representation of different cultures, in my mind right now, I thought we are striving towards making this faction as a defined Iberian faction with proper representation of Celtiberians, since the faction structures and majority of the units are going towards an Iberian identity

@wackyseriousMaybe mix in the same faction Iberians from the north and the south? The use of metal helmets is somewhat later but I think we can give ourselves a little "creative license"

North-Eastern Iberian warrior of the mid-3rd century BC. (*Through the gauls the north-east Iberians also adopted the long shields and straight swords.) 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

7 hours ago, wackyserious said:

@Genava55 @TKogumelos What about metal ornaments on leather helmets, like the one above?

@wackyseriousMaybe less decorated, perhaps more something like this:

but also it were found metal crests for leather helmets. 

Different types of southeastern Iberian infantry during the 4th century BC.
Source: "Weapons, warriors and battles of the Ancient Iberia" Quesada Sanz. 2010

 

Crest of El cigarralejo dated about the early 4th century BC

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

14 hours ago, wackyserious said:

@TKogumelos is this clothing pattern exclusive to the Balearics? Or did Iberians also used stripe clothing patterns?

Could you also check if these clothing details and patterns are accurate for Iberian culture, since these are the current textures that we use for the Iberians

1.) The typical type we see in depictions

2.) Meander patterns

3.) Dyed short and long sleeved tunics

@wackyseriousThe stripe pattern was introduced in the Balearic Islands by the Phoenicians according to Strabo. 

Iberians used other type of stripe pattern composed by two red lines. 

South-eastern Iberian burial by José Luís García Moran already 4th century BC. 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

In this thread, as John-of1999, I've posted some images about the different tribes of Iberia.

 https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/research-iberians.247627/page-3

 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures]

Those are drawings by Ángel García Pinto and Angus Mcbride.

The problem with these illustrators is that they mixed elements from different cultures and times. 

[Bibliography and references about ancient times (+ book reviews)]

I can bring some articles:

Information about Iberian weaponry through Braganza brooch:

https://www.academia.edu/732699/_The_Braganza_brooch_warrior_and_his_Weapons_the_Peninsular_context_

Information about Celtiberian culture and weaponry evolution:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/29726494_War_and_Society_in_the_Celtiberian_World

Some information about hispano-chalcidian helmets and Other defensive weapons in the Peninsula.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282798470_R_Graells_AJ_Lorrio_M_Perez_A_new_Hispano-chalcidian_helmet_fragment_from_Castillejo_Prov_Soria_in_the_RGZM_Archaologisches_Korrespondenzblatt_20151_91-104

The Celts in Iberia. An overview:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/29726495_The_Celts_in_Iberia_An_Overview

A very short summary about the war in the different tribes of Iberia:

https://www.uam.es/FyL/documento/1446794608623/Quesada-2015-Iberians-as-enemies.pdf

Sources on Spanish:

https://www.uam.es/FyL/TiposDeArmas/1446788697834.htm?language=es&nodepath=Tipos+de+Armas

https://www.uam.es/FyL/TiposDeArmas-Defensivas/1446788699134.htm

https://www.academia.edu/12530827/Un_heroe_para_Hispania_Viriato

https://www.academia.edu/35385190/F_Quesada_Sanz_2010_Armas_de_la_Antigua_Iberia_De_Tartesos_a_Numancia_Madrid_La_Esfera_de_los_Libros

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343166745_Los_Relieves_de_Osuna

https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=4736033

https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=6270183

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/El-guerrero-de-Mosqueruela-1-y-las-representaciones-de-guerreros-en-la-ceramica_fig8_264744438

https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=902332

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321424448_El_jinete_que_regreso_a_Lucentum_Un_lagynos_iberico_decorado_del_Tossal_de_Manises_Alicante

Some classic sources:

http://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/diodorus-siculus-library-of-history/

Some book recommendations:

-"Weapons, warriors and battles of the Ancient Iberia" Quesada Sanz. 2010

-"Guerreros de la antigua Iberia" Despertaferro. 2020 (*Not translated.) 

[Iberians, Celtiberians, Lusitans, --reference---]

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/research-iberians.247627/page-3

(Yo soy John-of1999) Vuelvo a copiar el mismo enlace aquí porque, después de leer fuentes con mayor seriedad académica ("Armas de la antigua Iberia" de Quesada y el suplemento "Guerreros de la antigua Iberia" de Despertaferro), he cambiado la mayor parte de imágenes que publiqué y también he añadido información. 

(*Todo en inglés porque es el idioma en el que hablan los modders.) 

(*También aclarar que no copio y pego aquí la información directamente porque me llevaría mucho tiempo.)