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artoo

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Everything posted by artoo

  1. Generally, more heavy arrows decrease range, assumed shot with same bow, but increase impact impulse. Lighter arrows are like longe range arrows, to keep enemy at distance. They all had different arrows on the battlefield. Archery was much more complex, many with sort of natural skill, than it is perceived. Art of war indeed. At some point, simulation remains that, a simulation, a mental reconstruction how it may have been, given some measured data with bow replicas using ancient materials. Doesn't make much sense to me. The effect of using realistic values for the physics should be, the player has more time, fire rates decreased to a more realistic rate, projectiles don't approach at double the speed and all kind of fantastic trickery only to get a ballistic flight curve, like multiplying gravity. I hope to have a first little test game tonight, pretty eager to see the tweaks in game now. I note, the unit motion, walk speed etc are also pretty off. Atm a human unit walks 9x as fast. Realistic is probably this, sort of... accel is average based on 100 m sprint data. Turnangle a guess. WalkSpeed 1.5 RunMultiplier 3.3 InstantTurnAngle 45.0 Acceleration 3.1
  2. This would be advancing bow making technology, different materials and designs. But, a heavy draw weight bow can also shoot very heavy arrows at cost of range, ie more penetration power.
  3. I went for crossbow prepare and repeat times of 9000 and 10000 ms respectively, looks pretty good in my view. Feedback or fine tuning welcome, next is archers and jav. Archers at 3000 and 4000 ms looks pretty good too
  4. artoo

    Han China

    Its collecting ideas for like Western Han expansion mod. Atm, I think we should settle with eastern Han, ie probably have to reduce cav unit roster a bit, and also there are no props for heavy armored cav the Western Han used. The Han as in master branch are pretty complete, I won't add game play features there. I am thinking for eastern Han: * archer cav(skirmishers) * dao cav (sword) * Ji cav (halberd)
  5. Yup, I try to address this too. A good archer back in the time fired ~15 arrows a minute, maybe even few more. Hard to say how many, since modern archery sucks compared to the ancient skills. @Freagarach Interesting to compare your commits to the speed values I used. They are not that different. I think the cav crossbow still has too high speed still with 80m/s, bolt shooters are about 110 in my calculated avg. I used 48 m/s for a default bow, 54 m/s for champ bows, 60 m/s for default crossbow, and 68 m/s for champ crossbow. 20 m/s and 22 m/s for default and champ Jav respectively.
  6. @wowgetoffyourcellphone What max range would you propose for the crossbow? Real range is beyond 200 m, I would settle for 100m for game sake with archers at 70 m(+10), Javs at 35(+5) m now. Would need 70m for towers etc, and bolt siege range adjusted, ie increased. Optionally, champ archers could maybe have 10 bonus meters, because they are elite units, who can draw more weight, ie heavier bow.
  7. Without trying to be nitpicking, but the speed and range values are kind of very off real values. Atm, archers have a projectile speed of 100 m/s, about double as fast as they should be, while range is too low, maybe 70 or 80 m. But this all depends on the bow and arrows used, so a kind of average for bow and arrow weight has to do. Javelins are thrown atm with incredible 60 m/s, with is off by a factor 3 assuming maybe a 800 grams Javelin, while the range is fine with ~30 m
  8. So why even bother having a projectile speed in m/s defined in the entity template, along with range in meters? a balancing is needed if Han could be considered to be included in game. It would also lead to more visible projectiles in the game, just saying, they are way too fast, not based on realism, which is possible.
  9. The projectile speed in archer templates is way too high with 100 m/s. I'll take a shot trying to balance this with real measured data for bows and crossbows with corresponding range in the Han mod. Avg bow is about ~48 m/s, the crossbow is at 60+ m/s. The Mongol bow 1000 years later is at 60 m/s.
  10. artoo

    Han China

    Would there be ideas how to gather horses for cav units? Each cav unit costs 1 horse. Garrison a horse in the corral with a trickle? Add simply horses as starting animals? each civ has a different starting horse trickle in the corral? Horse loot for enemy corral and stables? could be expanded to any other war animal used, elephants, camels... Any ideas? Horses can be traded, technically 2 subclasses, war and work horse. This would make such a cool campaign or scenario against the Xiongnu. This is not in the master branch, just testing ideas.
  11. Such thing could be coded. I guess it would need a garrison event to change props and remove the unit. One wagon would do the foundation, the fort, each garrisoned wagon would be added as prop. Anyhow, just thinking loudly.
  12. I was thinking, that if wagons are props, it could be assembled quite unusual. For example not constructed, but indeed like 6 wagons produced and added until complete. The wagon fort could become steadily stronger with more wagons added.
  13. Related, specialized unit in here ... the princess, kind of special worker, introduced as diplomat unit, that can only be built one at a time until upgraded to a building.
  14. @Lopess Very nice, looks Are the wagons props?
  15. artoo

    Han China

    My current proposal to balance archers and crossbows and ranged siege would be to introduce sub classes. Light, medium, heavy for siege. Probably light and heavy archers and crossbows for infantry(and/or cavalry), ie different ranges and damage. A heavy archer could defeat a light crossbowman, but the heavy crossbowman has no infantry match in terms of range and damage. I find it pretty difficult as is now to add crossbows in a balanced way without sacrificing too much of accurate implementation, ending up with a re-skinned archer as crossbowman, that has no differences to archer. Picking up on the idea of having like an additional resource horse(I know only 4 resources in game UI supported), it could coexist with upkeep. Say you have to have enough horses to make cavalry units, eg horses could be traded, would give the corral an important function. Would like to limit the access of the Han to mass cavalry to accurately implement the cav and horse breeding program to defeat the Xiongnu. The horse breeding could be controlled by giving a horse trickle to corral, that varies for each civ. Horse based civ could have higher horse garrison for corral and higher trickle than eg Han.
  16. artoo

    Han China

    Yup, hasn't to be the archer to deliver the fire. The Han Palace guard archers have the ability to switch back and forth between fire(or poison) and default arrows. The blade of the Palace guard swordsman can be switched to poison blade. Special forces.
  17. More like a mobile Roman siege camp, but in terms of defensive firepower, much stronger. The Han simply copied the Xiongnu tactics, they had almost no cavalry in the beginning, but used more advance technology. Mentioned on the Han thread, 400.000 horse mounted Xiongnu against only 10.000 cavalry units in whole Han China. Infantry and hundreds of thousands different types of crossbows on Han side.
  18. artoo

    Han China

    Point would be, depending on battle, situation, archers can be used in more close combat shooting heavy armor piercing arrows, along with archers behind them shooting lighter long range arrows to prevent advance for example. They used different arrows, ie archer is not archer, depends what arrows and bow type used. This becomes more relevant if crossbows are added. The crazy part, the small size crossbow replica in the earlier vids measured close to 60m/s or 190 fps projectile speed. The replica in part 3 had 120 pound draw weight, ie ~60kg, and the measurement of this one is not known yet. If the average crossbow used and deployed was at 6 stone class, 180 pound draw weight, then that's a range of >250m, with heavy bolts maybe 200m or so. Performance of these mid size crossbows is comparable to a Mongol Bow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossbows 76 kg or 168 pound, makes it a soldier suitable for a 5-6 stone crossbow.
  19. artoo

    Han China

    A few balancing questions. Given the 1-10 stone unit system for crossbows along with the table above, with an average crossbow at 6 stone, how should crossbow infantry units be balanced? The table's smallest crossbow still outranges anything with 170m. Archers have iirc by default a 60m range, with upgrades 70m, depending in height, a bonus may apply, so maybe a 100m for archers is max. Currently, the crossbows have the same range as bows, and also a +10% range upgrade, but that's not enough based on the data.
  20. artoo

    Han China

    Nice, ancient warfare was pretty much mechanized too. Hollywood did create a wrong impression with their films. I think fire arrows should be a feature all civs should have. Doesn't take a genius to use arrows to set buildings on fire, all of them used them. I also think, archery was far less static on the battlefield like shown in films.
  21. artoo

    Han China

    I mean more siege units, the bedded crossbows of the Han, or torsion weapons of Romans and Greeks. 450m range, outranges archers, tower ~5:1, and bows all have same stats, while they should probably have different stats in terms of range and damage(arrow weight) Its long range artillery for the bigger ones, would probably require new classes for siege units, let alone the damage. A 3m long bolt arrow could pretty much cause big damage on buildings and troop concentrations, ie wipe out multiple cav units at once.
  22. artoo

    Han China

    Sounds good. Whats more to worry, if the weapons tech of various civs was accurately implemented, it would cause quite a problem. Look at the range and and draw weight,450m & 340 kg they give on wiki. Bow length (cm) 70-145 99 122 58-91 80 Tiller length (cm) 60-70 25.5 95.5 Power stroke (cm) 46-51 41 10-18 16 Draw-weight (kg) 68-340 55-90 20.5 36-90 90-270 180-680 Range (m) 170-450 230 91.5 340-411 Lock mechanism bronze vertical trigger bronze block and lever rolling nut – bone, antler rolling nut rolling nut – metal Spanning device winch, stirrup (12th c.), belt claw (late) claw & lever stirrup (12th c.), belt claw (12th c.) winch winch pulleys, gaffle, cranequin, screw, cord pulley (15th c.) Crossbow material composite composite wood composite steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_siege_weapons
  23. Turns out, the Romans, Greeks are also not as sophisticated in game as they were with weapons technology. Like the Xanten Manubalista find iirc 2007, estimated officially early imperial. I often find myself in disagreement with official dating.
  24. Here are some example drawings, but don't ask what dynasty or period they are, its all bit unclear from sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossbows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_siege_weapons There is already this present , so It think this kind of thing, maybe slightly bigger with longer bow arms mounted on a wagon, or tower, wall etc
  25. I sadly can't find any drawing of such Han wagon fort, or even a full Han military camp. From the wiki description, it sounds like the ancient equivalent of a heavy APC or so, or like a Toyota pickup with MG mounted positioned in a circle. From the descriptions I read of crossbow usage, I think they had those large field artillery crossbows mounted on a wagon, pulled by horse. These are too big, stationary use for defense.
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