My opinions on the crossbowman and stuff.

[Stan`]

As I saw today reading the IRC logs thanks rada for pointing it out, I wanted to share my thought on how I think it should be :

- More expensive yeah.

I have an issue with making it champion unit. It's just that they were quite used, so I feel like they will be left out if put champion.

Maybe making it only available at the last phase. I'm not closing anything from discussion though

Maybe we are craving for champion units but I found one whose concept could be interesting, (formation breaker :

[Ayakashi]

Of course crossbowmen are too common historically during the Han to be champion. Most of them were conscripted militia men makes no sense for them to be champion. Unless of course you make a separate stronger unit that uses a heavy crossbow. I think its find as it is making them unlocked at 2nd phase.

Plz refer to my pm for champion unit ideas

[Stan`]

The repeatable crossbow is in the game so I was thinking of using it as champion with heavy crossbowmen following your idea.

[Radagast.]

I share your points, crossbows were mass produced almost all around China from at latest 200BC on, i.e. the rise + zenith of the Han Dynasty.

Without taking the wind out of sails, I would love to abstract the champion units to a tech like Sander did for the advanced + elite general promotion boni. We would also exchange the unit mesh via this tech.

Champions should rather be a 4th promotion level, this time requiring a huge amount of XP (reflecting that they achieved something big like saving the queen or something). The tech would exchange the unit mesh to Enrique's new ones.

I would also love a tech for each unit type that allows to call veteran units (called elite in 0AD) into an elite group. Though you could still do this yourself by creating a formation and only adding champions. Perhaps we even should create such an elite formation. The formation template could then get a bonus via auto-research techs.

This would allow for great flexibility as you could define several elite formations. The stats of course won't change, but you can pick the best of your units - just like in real life. This surely is not yet the perfect solution but it may be a start to have elite corps.

Having the champions as 4th "promotion" (which also could be called "level-up" as it depends on experience) would also allow to modify, via technology, the e.g. weapon restrictions in the unit's default cloth + weapon assignment template.

Another advantage is that it comes closer to history where every unit type could have their champions, not only what you predefined for whatever artificial reason.

The elite corps/formations (+ techs) would fill the gap that arises by this change.

Immortals then would simply be a formation, containing hand-picked units. Like in real life.

The current heroes could be renamed to legends.

Heroes then could be all those units that did something great. (plenty of heroes, remembered for a short time period - while few "legends" remain known even millennia later.) To mirror history those legends could be predefined. While every unit, even a fisherman could become a hero, resulting in morale boost or other boni, if only achieved something big.

The cool thing with defining weapon templates instead of hard-coded unit types would also be to avoid the current redundancy of cavalry + infantry using the same weapon and the flexibility to give a unit a alarm horn which would turn the unit into a morale boost unit.

[Radagast.]

@Crossbow:

I think due to the ease of using a crossbow, those units' train time should even further lowered to 2 seconds instead of the current 3. I know it's already quite low, but that those units would be created almost instantly would and should be special for crossbow infantry. (they don't need special strength training because they don't have to pull a bow.)

We already have reduced the shot frequency to the re-enactor determined values of crossbow 4 vs 9 longbow shots in 30 seconds. Not sure if the 30 seconds are already modeled but in average those 30seconds might not have been reached.

The accuracy has of the crossbow has been increased.

In short, we need a new playtesting due to those changes. :/ sry for the inconvenience.

[Stan`]

Try to play them against "real" civs. Like romans etc. for formations i need to look at the code to achieve those http://sciondevelopment.com/rote/reference/formations/

Rada, I like your idea with champions though I don't understand what enrique's mesh will do since they override the main game's... But I want something to be clear though, We shouldn't do it if it gives a problem of balance. Now here are my directives, you can add anything you like and want to try unless they break gameplay and as long as they reflect reality.

[Radagast.]

Oh, didn't know they would replace all meshes as first there was talk about providing new units for champions and heroes only -- such that they'd be better recognizable.

For the elite corps formations, nothing has to be done.

For adding new formations look at Niek's recent formation commit.

No worries, the rework won't be executed for the Han Dynasty as the Iron Age civs have to be compliant to the 0AD civs.