More advanced diplomacy

[Unarmed]

I talked about this earlier, but I wanted to make a thread to make sure it is not overlooked. What I would suggest, yes this time it's not a idea, it is a real suggestion. Ideas are things I am not sure about and bring up. Suggestions I am confident about and I request them. Let's first tell what I like:

-AI tells when it attacks

-(Planned) being able to give units to allies

What I don't like is that you always start as enemies, unless you pick teams locked. Teams locked means you don't have to play with some of the diplomacy I propose. If you start a non-team locked game without teams I would like it like this (based on Seven Kingdoms):

-Everyone starts neutral

When neutral, you can attack. When you attack, diplomacy changes into enemies; you have declared war.

-Some AI ask to be friendly

(Important: you always get the option decline or accept when it is a question)

When friendly, you won't be able to attack eachother. But you also won't see eachother, like when you are a team or alliance. When you are friendly you'll be able to ask a trade treaty:

-Some AI ask for a trade treaty

When you are friendly the AI may ask, or do, this:

-"Darius" wants 100 food in contribution.

-"Darius" gives you 100 food in contribution

-"Darius" wants you to declare war on "Leonidas"

-"Darius" wants you to start a trade embargo against "Leonidas"

-"Darius" wants reinforcements (units)

If you decline too many, the AI, in this case Darius, might go from friendly to neutral again. We would have to make sure the AI is not too annoying with this, so not asking every 10 seconds for contribution or declaring war.

The next level is alliance. When in alliance, you'll see eachother. In alliance you get the same questions from AI, but:

-"Darius" asks 300 food in contribution.

-"Darius" gives you 300 food in contribution

-"Darius" requests you to declare war on "Leonidas"

-"Darius" requests you to start a trade embargo against "Leonidas"

-"Darius" requests reinforcements (units)

Again if you decline too many, the AI will break the alliance but not with locked teams.

This is all. It may not seem that much (it is quite a handful to implement!) but I think it will improve the game. What would improve this futher is different Ai personalities, like:

-qBot - aggressive (will quickly declare war, will demand much resources)

-qBot - passive (will not declare war, will not ask or give resources)

-qBot - friendly (will start many alliances, will give much resources to allies)

I feel like this will enhance the game and with the locked team option, people who don't like it can play without it.

[sanderd17]

Diplomacy is in the first place something for humans. For AIs, the best we could do (in a reasonable time) is some fixed schema, which will also get known, so players will know when they have to obey or disobey an order from the AI. Just like now it's easy to know when the AI will attack. I'd say there are far more important (and easier to implement) improvements that could be done to the AI. So that probably won't change any time soon.

Your suggestion to start as neutral is interesting though. Although currently the "Neutral" status is quite vague. It's not really decided if units or buildings should attack dangerous neutral units or not.

Also, you seem to propose an extra state, "Friendly", which seems pretty vague, as now there is already confusion about how "Neutral" should be handled.

[Unarmed]

Diplomacy is in the first place something for humans. For AIs, the best we could do (in a reasonable time) is some fixed schema, which will also get known, so players will know when they have to obey or disobey an order from the AI. Just like now it's easy to know when the AI will attack. I'd say there are far more important (and easier to implement) improvements that could be done to the AI. So that probably won't change any time soon.

Your suggestion to start as neutral is interesting though. Although currently the "Neutral" status is quite vague. It's not really decided if units or buildings should attack dangerous neutral units or not.

Also, you seem to propose an extra state, "Friendly", which seems pretty vague, as now there is already confusion about how "Neutral" should be handled.

I base everything of Seven Kingdoms, it had friendly, so I thought of that.

Neutral is that units won't attack eachother ever. Unless you order them. When you attack a unit you will become enemies. Kind of what happened in Age of Empires 1 when you were allied and a war elephant damaged friendly troops (not proposing this! It was horrible, probably a defect.)

When neutral, you can't trade. I would actually like trading with others to be more important, but I am not sure how it can be done right without making players who want to play versus games upset.

You have to be friendly to trade.

Also what I forgot, in Seven Kingdoms you can't declare war to factions unless you are neutral (or perhaps friendly). I thought Ai actually asks you to abandon alliances.

If you have ever played Seven Kingdoms you can really understand that this is a big improvement.

[Lion.Kanzen]

May before a Gaia Trading can be interesting, you can trade indirectly with your enemy thought them. Is important the player can do alliance with allies enemy, specially in single victory map.

The Ai in hard can ask for alliance and ask for money when that happens. One few times happens in Rise of Nstions. We are forget the flare button. In Empire earth I was enjoy building wonders, that get made the enemy Ai, and too get mad when you press a shortcut. The Ai send messages like a priggish player.

Too you can exchange units, or civic centers. You can give metal for some units, thinks. In two friends or broyhers playing, and the other send a message requesting a Siege Tower because they aren't playing with same faction. They exchange their units, and push to help the other to win. After they beaten their enemies, play to win how is best.

May be you can exchange you farms for units or storehouse close to mineral resource. In allied mode the allies share the territory.

[Unarmed]

Also, maybe it's easier than i think, but making a alliance with AI (or even player!) seems really hard right now. In Age of Empires the same. I never made alliances in Age of Empires as it was hard and also boring, unlike Seven Kingdoms.

I would like a better diplomacy screen. Where you can send messages to AI or players, like:

-Ask for x tribute --> the player gets a message "Xerxes asks for 100 food. Accept. Decline."

-Ask for alliance --> the player gets a message "Xerxes offers a alliance. Accept. Decline."

Ai would also send these kind of messages, I already made some examples. You get the option to accept or decline.

I actually recently got Seven Kingdoms 2 in my possession. I will be forced to play to see how it works in that game, poor me...

(Also I don't like how you in Age of Empires needed to give resources to a AI to become "friends" I would much rather stay "friends" by giving him resources and agreeing requests to destroy his enemies.)

Edited July 5, 2013 by Unarmed

[Mythos_Ruler]

We had the notion of implementing a kind of "Total War" kind of diplomacy, where there are a group of demands and offers that you can make.

Though, I think we decided to stick with simple diplomacy for Part 1.

[Unarmed]

We had the notion of implementing a kind of "Total War" kind of diplomacy, where there are a group of demands and offers that you can make.

Though, I think we decided to stick with simple diplomacy for Part 1.

Is Seven Kingdoms type of diplomacy too difficult?

It seems like this type of diplomacy of Rome Total war is more something for a turn based part of the game. I'm talking about real time strategy diplomacy.

Rome Total War could have features that fit into 0 A.D. but it is very different. I wouldn't like battles like Total War in 0 A.D. as of now; combat is simply not interesting enough.

But yeah I don't know how everyone feels. Age of Empires was about building a city and stuff like that so I feel diplomacy could be expanded, improved.

It isn't supposed to be only about fighting for example.

I was playing Seven Kingdoms 2 and noticed some other things (I actually prefer playing this singleplayer to 0 A.D. singleplayer as of now, not to be mean).

Seven Kingdoms also has surrendering to players. Since converting would be made, this could perhaps be done (not requesting it however). But maybe this is too radical?

So when a player surrenders to you (not resigns!) you get acces to all his buildings and units. (I don't like the idea of converting a single building and gaining acces to the units of the faction, though I like the idea of capturing buildings)

It could be helpful in multiplayer games. Your teammate needs to go, to sleep, eat whatever. And he surrenders to you. Seems better than your teammate turning into AI.

You could also piss someone off by surrendering to your favorite player. (the same pop cap would still apply to you)

Edited July 5, 2013 by Unarmed

[Lion.Kanzen]

You can prepare a Video, for that game in order to expose why, because I don't have an idea what can offer.

[Unarmed]

You can prepare a Video, for that game in order to expose why, because I don't have an idea what can offer.

Well you can try out the game and it's being updated, so I think you can play it on windows 7. Or use compability mode.

But yeah I might search for a good video or make my own.

And sorry if my above comment was considered rude. I think 0 A.D. is great, it is very high quality, but lacking a bit in certain areas right now. But this is alpha. And I'm hard to please.

Seven Kingdoms 2 is quite awesome. It is funny, the game has monsters and the monsters can deploy gorillas and rhinos. It's quite ridicilous but cool, so I understand gorillas and rhinos are on the official list.

What's even more funny, the game is not at all historical accurate, but it has the right species of elephants for Carthage and India (just like 0 A.D. which I love).

Lion Kanzen, here is a tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf_L5_CUto4

As you can see it is very different from Age of Empires, but still some features could be "imported". Don't let the poor graphics fool you. Around 6:00 you'll able to see a little bit about the diplomacy.

I think I might make some screenshots so you can better understand, this is from Seven Kingdoms 2. EDIT: some screenshots showing the diplomacy options and AI diplomacy:

I think I will make another one when I have played a little longer. Exchanging technology is very interesting, but I fear that for 0 A.D. this would lead to balance issues.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Unarmed