Brainstorming: Espionage Unit

[Tutle]

Espionage Unit:

Description: Great for keeping track of where an enemy unit is located.

Stats:

+Cannot be automatically attacked by any unit except Celtic Dogs (they can sniff who belongs and who doesn't )

+Will follow an enemy unit till attacked or given a new command

-Cannot attack only counter-attack a unit

-Weak against melee and ranged units

Basically, think of the espionage unit as the equivalent of a radar in modern games. The radar can only be attacked when spotted, so in order to kill any spies in your units you must manually point and order to attack him. This would keep players double checking their main base/assault which I think will add more interesting game-play to 0 A.D (this is a strategy game after all ).

Sorry about the "idea" threads, but 0 A.D gets me brain going.

[chaosislife]

Espionage Unit:

Description: Great for keeping track of where an enemy unit is located.

Stats:

+Cannot be automatically attacked by any unit except Celtic Dogs (they can sniff who belongs and who doesn't )

+Will follow an enemy unit till attacked or given a new command

-Cannot attack only counter-attack a unit

-Weak against melee and ranged units

Basically, think of the espionage unit as the equivalent of a radar in modern games. The radar can only be attacked when spotted, so in order to kill any spies in your units you must manually point and order to attack him. This would keep players double checking their main base/assault which I think will add more interesting game-play to 0 A.D (this is a strategy game after all ).

Sorry about the "idea" threads, but 0 A.D gets me brain going.

Be easier if it was just a unit that both players had control over, then he could hide by assuming the role of an enemy or even "ally" unit. The spy could be able to change teams, at which point he would be controllable by that player as well as being ultimately controllable by his spymaster. Dependent upon how his population value was attributed one tactic could be filling an enemies ranks with spies and then diverting them whenever they were sent to attack you, that would be somewhat obvious to a human opponent, but the AI isn't so bright. They should probably be hideously expensive at least in metal. If we made spy a sort of upgrade for all units then it wouldn't have to be a specific spy model. Perhaps set it up as a way to bribe units with a good amount of metal so that they then transform into a spy?

[Tutle]

I think that might make the programming for this unit more difficult since it needs to be programmed to work with 2 players or a player & A.I. I think keeping him as a follower only, might make it easier (from what it sounds like).It could be along the lines of just making the manual attack code to track instead for this specific unit. In addition, it would also force the spy master to make sure the spy's cover is not blown. Here is a little scenario of how I picture this in-game:

1. As not the spymaster

*orders a group of units to enter a garrison*

*checks back on the garrison and notices 1 javelinist standing next to the building*

*moves mouse over to assign javelinist to another garrison*

*sees mouse icon change to attack mode*

*orders a unit to attack the now-discovered spy*

2. As a spymaster

*checks on spy and notices he is by himself next to a garrison*

*assigns spy to follow another exposed enemy unit*

Here, either the enemy controller notices the spy moving about and checks him out, or doesn't notice him moving to one of his exposed units.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Tutle

[Mythos_Ruler]

I could see a "Spy" having ranks, like other units do.

Apprentice Spy

Advanced Spy

Master Spy

Something like that. I think we had a discussion within the past few months about spies already. Let me try to find the thread.

EDIT: Here we go!

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14619&st=0&p=218318&hl=spies&fromsearch=1entry218318

The consensus is that spies would be something we would add post-release, maybe in a patch or more likely as part of 0 A.D.Part II.

[Tutle]

So for brainstorming sake, which do you think would work best as for his stats? By the way, I am glad we agree that the celtic dogs should be able to automatically attack the spy. Also, I agree that spy should be expensive either by making him part of the hero building, or making the limit 1 per life.

[chaosislife]

I'm not big on only having only one of any unit, if I only have one then I wouldn't bother using them unless they were required, and then i'd just garrison it somewhere safe so the enemy couldn't kill it. Expensive is okish but could there be a way to make the unit cost a bit of pay per minute? That way it would be like you have to pay them a monthly wage to keep them working.

[Tutle]

how about 3 per life? In this manner, you have a chance to spy on 3 different enemies at the same time. I don't think it should go any higher than this since if you have to many people will not use the spy well. By making it 4 you want to make sure they stay alive and are being of good use to you.

[Mythos_Ruler]

How about you are allowed 1 per player on the map. So, if it's a 3v3 you can have up to 6 spies. If it's a 6 player FFA, then you can have 6 spies. One 1 spy per number of teams.

[Tutle]

How about you are allowed 1 per player on the map. So, if it's a 3v3 you can have up to 6 spies. If it's a 6 player FFA, then you can have 6 spies. One 1 spy per number of teams.

Yes, that could work.

I hope for the future the spy can only counter-attack. Rarely does a spy assassinate a target unless it is crucial to the success of his mission ( In other words, his cover is blown).

Edited July 3, 2011 by Tutle

[chaosislife]

How about limiting it to the passive stance so he has no auto attack but still allowing him a really powerful assassination capability? Wouldn't be enough to use him to take out armies, but enough so that he could whack a hero.

[Chakakhan]

I really like the spy idea. Adds some interesting potential strategy. Might be neat that if/when he gets captured they beat information out of him and you get to take a look at his base for 10 seconds or something.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I really like the spy idea. Adds some interesting potential strategy. Might be neat that if/when he gets captured they beat information out of him and you get to take a look at his base for 10 seconds or something.

I lol'ed. Although I think torture is out of the question, it could be one feature that if your spy is killed, then the player who killed him gets vision of your base for a short time (restricted to the starting Civic Centre's vision range maybe?).

[chaosislife]

What if we made it into a torture minigame? Like a screen that shows the various tools and lets you decide where to insert/use them? Then you'd get civ bonuses or resources for making him crack, and funny screams if you don't.

[Chakakhan]

In all seriousness I do think the partial reveal on spy death would be cool and unique.

[Tutle]

In all seriousness I do think the partial reveal on spy death would be cool and unique.

Yeah I like that idea. This would also force the spy master to make sure his spy's cover will not get blown.

I think this would be nice stats for the Espionage Unit:

Pro:

Tracker (cannot be auto-attacked)

Strong vs. melee units when counter-attacking

Con:

passive stance

Weak vs. ranged units (and war dogs?)

can be auto-attacked by war dogs

when killed grants 10 second view of spymaster's base

[Pureon]

I like the way snipers function in Company of Heroes - perhaps a system like that could work for 0AD's Spy?

[Chakakhan]

I like the way snipers function in Company of Heroes - perhaps a system like that could work for 0AD's Spy?

Not familiar with that, please elaborate ;-)

[Yihka]

I think by letting dogs automatically find spies will make spies kind of useless... I suggest the system of a spy like populous the beginning + TF2 style.

You can pick a unit you wish to disguise as and the players nationality. When you have done so you will be able to spy. The only way to figure out it is an enemy spy would be to click on it and try to move it.

However... If it's like this a spy shouldn't be that expensive, it's easy to find a spy like that. The best way would be to make it so the other player can move the same unit and even see it's vision. However, the unit wouldn't attack or anything.You would have to manually click the attack button to attack the spy. (No right-click attack icon either, too easy to find a spy!) Only then spies will be useful and unique.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Yihka

[Pureon]

Not familiar with that, please elaborate ;-)

In Company of Heroes the sniper can knock out an enemy unit in 1 shot. It has a camouflage ability that once turned on makes the sniper invisible to enemy units unless they get very close to it. As soon as the sniper fires a shot, he becomes visible for around 8 seconds and then dissapears from view. In the GUI you can make the sniper 'Hold Fire', so it doesn't automatically attack units. They're expensive and easy to kill when visible.