Campaign Ideas for 0 A.D.

[Fionn]

If each faction could only have one campaign, I would suggest these:

Hellenes/Greeks - Alexander (or perhaps a campaign that covers the whole struggle against the Persian empire, from the rebellion against Cyrus to Alexander's conquest)

Carthage - Punic Wars- especially Hannibal's victories in Italy (against Iberian rebels, hostile Alpine Gauls and Rome)

Romans - Punic Wars (against Iberians, Gauls and Carthage)

Persians - Cyrus' expansion (or perhaps the expansion of the Achaemenid empire in general)

Iberians/Spanish - Infighting with other tribes and Mediterranean colonists.

Celts - Same as the above (it wouldn't be accurate to have Boudica or Vercingetorix fight against the Roman army before Marius' reforms)

[SMST]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this boards, but have known about 0 A.D. for a while.

Hello.

I have this grand idea for an awesome Hellenic campaign which will have everything from the quarrels between the poleis, the colonization era, Greco-Persian war etc. Would I (probably in later stages of this game) be allowed to create such a campaign as a sort of add-on for us Hellenic-fans?

The editor is already included in the Alpha release and will be fairly powerful with the final release, as i see it.

Here follows some comments to the first post of this thread, since that's why I really registered here:

Hehe, you registered to comment my ideas?

Don't think this would be a bit massive as a tutorial, but better off as a "first campaign?"

I would suggest a smaller scenario such as retaking Rome from Celts under Brennus as a tutorial, while your suggestion works better as an introduction to sea-warfare.

Well, explain what you mean saying "massive". I agree that the time-span is fairly great. Perhaps one could skip it a bit and focus just on colonisation and the Persian Wars.

The Celts are not that good to feature as a tutorial civ, because they are very restricted in classes - no real navy, no siege - and are designed to be a more "special" faction. The only other civ i would regard being fit to be a tut civlisation would be the Romans. (Italian Wars, anyone?)

Oh, and the Leonidas tutorial campaign is also in discussion.

Boudica, winning? Just as realistic as the Persians defeating Alexander. If you want the Britons to win, how about the first Roman attempt at invading the island? It was a humiliating defeat for the Romans, and an epic win for the Britons. They would cling on to the memory of this when attempting to break free from oppression later.

Hm, that would be possible. Perhaps mixing both to get a "British Resistance" Campaign. My point is just, what characters have we got to feature in this campaign? For I think that campaign need to tell the story of a character rather than just of wars, which makes them more interesting. I chose Boadicea because I found it interesting having a woman playing the main role, which was not often seen in ancient times. (Cleopatra, yes, but then i have to remember how Rise&Fall screwed that.)

And on Boadicea winning:

Yes, it would be unhistorical. I've read some articles on the net about that, tough, and some said that the main reason why Boadicea ultimately lost was their lack of organisation. It could therefore be made in a campaign that Boadicea (or someone else) sees the need for the Britons to organize themselves to stand a chance against the Romans. Not everything needs to be absolutely historical, although i try to keep it as accurate as possible.

Oh, and I'll slap myself around to write an introduction later.

I just realize, I don't have one, either.^^

If each faction could only have one campaign, I would suggest these:

Hmm, whats the point to force a campaign for every faction?

Hellenes/Greeks - Alexander (or perhaps a campaign that covers the whole struggle against the Persian empire, from the rebellion against Cyrus to Alexander's conquest)

Corecct me, but did the Greeks ever rise against Cyrus or are you just confusing him with Darius?

Otherwise, yeah, that's what I wanted to do, split up over the Tutorial and the Alexander Campaign.

Carthage - Punic Wars- especially Hannibal's victories in Italy (against Iberian rebels, hostile Alpine Gauls and Rome)

Romans - Punic Wars (against Iberians, Gauls and Carthage)

Two campaigns covering the same topic?

Repetitio non delectat, though, I had a idea for a so called "turning-point" Campaign for the Punic Wars:

You play Hannibal, starting his invasion in Spain, later Gaul and Italy, until the Battle of Cannae. Then, you are changing sides, fighting Hannibal as Maximus and Scipio in reverse.

Persians - Cyrus' expansion (or perhaps the expansion of the Achaemenid empire in general)

Problem here, within the limitations of 0 A.D. you have no featured enemies unless you want to fight Persians over the whole campaign. Persians in 0 A.D. are the already formed empire, containig all of the Middle East. It would be great for a mod, where you have Lydians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians etc. all as individual factions.

Iberians/Spanish - Infighting with other tribes and Mediterranean colonists.

Celts - Same as the above (it wouldn't be accurate to have Boudica or Vercingetorix fight against the Roman army before Marius' reforms)

Once again, repetitio non delectat. (the one who points out the stupidity of that sentence gets a cookie.)

You have a Iberian campaign - fighting other tribes and Romans.

Then Celts - hey, same again ...

That the Marian Reforms are not part of the game is the reason why the Boadicea will be no featured campaign of WFG, as i have been informed, because it's out of the timeframe.

edit:

Tell me - why are the quote-tags not working?

Edited May 14, 2010 by feneur

[feneur]

There is a limit to the number of allowed quotes, and you had too many. I've increased the limit to 20 now though, so now it works (for some reason I had to press the edit button for your quotes to work, but now they do [didn't do anything but press edit and then submit]). Hopefully no one will need to make more quotes than that in a single post

[SMST]

There is a limit to the number of allowed quotes, and you had too many. I've increased the limit to 20 now though, so now it works (for some reason I had to press the edit button for your quotes to work, but now they do [didn't do anything but press edit and then submit]). Hopefully no one will need to make more quotes than that in a single post

Oh, didn't know there was a limit.^^

Thanks.

[Fionn]

I know, it's a lot of repetition, but there aren't many options. Perhaps the Celtic campaign can wait for future parts of the game- Marius'/Caesar's Rome for a Vercingetorix campaign and/or Imperial Rome for a Boudica campaign?

As for the Persians... Well, couldn't the Atlas tool create Babylonians, Assyrians, etc? No one would really care if their buildings/units weren't 100% accurate...

[SMST]

I know, it's a lot of repetition, but there aren't many options. Perhaps the Celtic campaign can wait for future parts of the game- Marius'/Caesar's Rome for a Vercingetorix campaign and/or Imperial Rome for a Boudica campaign?

Both Marian and Imperial Romans are going to be in the Atlas Editor, so that'll be no problem.

As for the Persians... Well, couldn't the Atlas tool create Babylonians, Assyrians, etc? No one would really care if their buildings/units weren't 100% accurate...

Hmm, i do not know if the developers would care about pre-persian Middle East since it is completely out of every of their timeframes - Part 1 and 2.

One could mod them, though. Hey, that'll be an interesting project.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Babylonians and Assyrians won't be in the game (WFG won't spend time making them and I don't blame them). But I know WFG would definitely welcome a dedicated and talented modder or mod team creating such factions as a mod.

[SMST]

To quote myself:

Something i played with in my mind was a to make a mod for the game, expanding 0 A.D., as the hypothetical second part would do, but in the other direction of the timeline.biggrin.gif

Which means: The ancient civilisations BEFORE the Rise of Greece and Rome. The mid eastern culture, with their grand city states, maginificent buildings and large armies.

The civilisations would be:

Egypt

Persia

(which could be taken from the original game because in the end, it would fit better in the timeframe of the expansion mod)

Mesopotamia

(Subfactions Assyrians/Babylonians, such as Poleis/Macedonians for the original Hellenes faction)

Hittites

Mycenean Greeks

(NOT the classical Greece but the civilisation described in Homer's great epoi)

... and, you guessed it, the Hebrews bzw. the Kingdom of Judaea.

I'm planning to make this mod, and i will probably start working on a Design Document for factions, units and buildings when the Alpha comes out. I have no other skills, however, than working out the design and the system, creating maps and scenarios and a bit of texture editing, so I would definitley need some help.

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Hi again, and especially to you SMST, since this primarly is an answer to you regarding the campaign ideas:

Concerning my tutorial idea, I meant you should play as Camillus and retake Rome from Brennus, not take Rome as Brennus. There was no siege of Rome, Brennus simply walked through the empty gates, pillaging as they went (Plutarch) since the Romans had mostly evacuated. Camillus meanwhile built up a force from another city (I think it was Veii) and was later joined by Roman deserters from an earlier battle, and in a later pitched battle outside Rome, won a decisive victory, and Brennus were killed.

Your idea for Boudica is quite interesting. I find myself liking the thought of it much more now that you've explained your vision a bit more.

The "rise of Athens" was very long expansion: first as the dominant force in Attica, then in all of Greece, except the Peloponnese, then as a colonial power, and finally as a naval force, that practically defeated the Persians. Now, the problem I see about this, isn't where to start or end, but where to limit this to a tutorial. It would be so much better as a campaign (with occasional tips as new things are added to the gameplay). I could find myself doing a total conversion later on, with all eyes set on Greece and modern day Turkey, playing out the "Age of Hellenism." Just because I'm a total nerd about Anicent Greece.

That's all for now.

Oh, concerning:

Hellenes/Greeks - Alexander (or perhaps a campaign that covers the whole struggle against the Persian empire, from the rebellion against Cyrus to Alexander's conquest)

Perhaps you mean Darius/Xerxes? I seem to recall those were the Persian kings who struggled with the Dorians.

[SMST]

Hi again, and especially to you SMST, since this primarly is an answer to you regarding the campaign ideas:

Special greets too.

Concerning my tutorial idea, I meant you should play as Camillus and retake Rome from Brennus, not take Rome as Brennus. There was no siege of Rome, Brennus simply walked through the empty gates, pillaging as they went (Plutarch) since the Romans had mostly evacuated. Camillus meanwhile built up a force from another city (I think it was Veii) and was later joined by Roman deserters from an earlier battle, and in a later pitched battle outside Rome, won a decisive victory, and Brennus were killed.

Oh, sorry. Misunderstanding.

Hmm, I don't know much about that, but it sounds really good. It could feature everything from base-building to tactical battles. The only missing point is, as you mentioned, sea warfare.

Your idea for Boudica is quite interesting. I find myself liking the thought of it much more now that you've explained your vision a bit more.

Thanks, I also found it interesting what you had to tell about the first victory of the Britons against the Romans. Was that the Caesarian attempt to invade Britain? Some details about that?

Because I find it hard to find 12 scenarios regarding Boadicea, even if I invent a victory. Therefore, it might be useful to put your suggestion first.

The "rise of Athens" was very long expansion: first as the dominant force in Attica, then in all of Greece, except the Peloponnese, then as a colonial power, and finally as a naval force, that practically defeated the Persians. Now, the problem I see about this, isn't where to start or end, but where to limit this to a tutorial. It would be so much better as a campaign (with occasional tips as new things are added to the gameplay). I could find myself doing a total conversion later on, with all eyes set on Greece and modern day Turkey, playing out the "Age of Hellenism." Just because I'm a total nerd about Anicent Greece.

You are right, definitley. There is much potential in the story of Athens. It was the best tutorial topic I could find, though, because this is really about the birth of a whole culture and their self-concoiusness.

Your mod idea sounds interesting. Will it cover all of the Ancient Greek history, from Minoeans and Myceneans to the conquest by the Romans?

Perhaps you mean Darius/Xerxes? I seem to recall those were the Persian kings who struggled with the Dorians.

Actually, the ones who started the uprising in Asia Minor were Ionians.

Edited May 16, 2010 by SMST

[oshron]

before i suggested basing the learning campaign on philip's rise in macedon, but now i think that maybe the best idea for a learning campaign would be to feature the romans in an entirely fictional scenario just to teach all the basics of the game. maybe it would just be some roman settlers going into gaul and setting up a base, dealing with raiding celts

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Special greets too.

Oh, sorry. Misunderstanding.

Hmm, I don't know much about that, but it sounds really good. It could feature everything from base-building to tactical battles. The only missing point is, as you mentioned, sea warfare.

Thanks, I also found it interesting what you had to tell about the first victory of the Britons against the Romans. Was that the Caesarian attempt to invade Britain? Some details about that?

Well, first I thought about was this one:

During his Gallic Wars, Julius Caesar invaded Britain twice, in 55 and 54 BC.[1] The first invasion, made late in summer, was either intended as a full invasion (in which case it was unsuccessful - it gained a beachhead on the coast of Kent but achieved little else) - Wikipedia

Little is really known about any battles, except that the tribune sent there really didn't dare make an expansion there, so a Briton campaign with some tribal war, then ending with kicking the Romans back on their boat, could easily be swallowed as historical enough. The article on Wikipedia is quite good, with quotes from different historical sources. I thought about the first invasion in 55 BC.

Because I find it hard to find 12 scenarios regarding Boadicea, even if I invent a victory. Therefore, it might be useful to put your suggestion first.

Now, this is getting interesting. Unfortunately, the Britons lost in the long term due to poor management, but they were certainly fierce warriors, and offered much resistance. With some imagination...

You are right, definitley. There is much potential in the story of Athens. It was the best tutorial topic I could find, though, because this is really about the birth of a whole culture and their self-concoiusness.

Your mod idea sounds interesting. Will it cover all of the Ancient Greek history, from Minoeans and Myceneans to the conquest by the Romans?

I've been planning what I call "Koinon Hoplitai," meaning something like "Common Soldiers" in Koiné. It will revolve around the history of Hoplites, from the peak of Corinth (800BC), until Roman domination over Greece. I planned quite much for each city state (+ Persian Wars), but I won't include the quest of Alexander the Great, since it was out in the far East. I will include what was going on in Greece at that time, though.

Actually, the ones who started the uprising in Asia Minor were Ionians.

Sorry, my fault. I thought about that the Spartans sent a "delegation," but that was to support the Ionians. Or something along those lines.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Alpha of the Eagles

[SMST]

Well, first I thought about was this one:

During his Gallic Wars, Julius Caesar invaded Britain twice, in 55 and 54 BC.[1] The first invasion, made late in summer, was either intended as a full invasion (in which case it was unsuccessful - it gained a beachhead on the coast of Kent but achieved little else) - Wikipedia

Little is really known about any battles, except that the tribune sent there really didn't dare make an expansion there, so a Briton campaign with some tribal war, then ending with kicking the Romans back on their boat, could easily be swallowed as historical enough. The article on Wikipedia is quite good, with quotes from different historical sources. I thought about the first invasion in 55 BC.

As I said, I could imagine perhaps four or five scenarios about that first victory, then perhaps a cinematic that shows the eventual conquest by Roman forces, then 8 or 7 scenarios about Boadicea.

I also thought about some fictional tribal war for Boadicea. It would be, that Celtic nobles, perhaps relatives of Boadicea, question a woman's ability to lead a army, especially if she is driven by strong feelings (revenging the plundering of her home and the raping of their children) and irrational decisions that are caused by them. They start some rebellion amongst the tribes and you have to unite them before launching an attack against the Romans. Also, there could be some doubt about the validness of Boadicea's heritage from her dead husband. (It was common amongst Celts that women could inherit and hold lands and kingdoms. As far as i know, however, the leadership turned over to men in case of war. Of course, I am not an expert on that matter)

Now, this is getting interesting. Unfortunately, the Britons lost in the long term due to poor management, but they were certainly fierce warriors, and offered much resistance. With some imagination...

Hm, maybe there could be a fictional character, who is Briton but raised in Gaul by Romans so he would know about the organisation and the Roman strategies. Some kind of Aetius and the Huns vice versa.

For Boadicea herself, I wanted to portray her very harsh and emontion-driven, perhaps even bitter. For reasons, see above. (the plundering and raping part)

I've been planning what I call "Koinon Hoplitai," meaning something like "Common Soldiers" in Koiné. It will revolve around the history of Hoplites, from the peak of Corinth (800BC), until Roman domination over Greece. I planned quite much for each city state (+ Persian Wars), but I won't include the quest of Alexander the Great, since it was out in the far East. I will include what was going on in Greece at that time, though.

It would be "hoplitai koinai", actually. Sounds interesting. What city states are there going to be? Athens, Sparta, Thebes, Korinth and Milet would be the most obvious. What about including mythology/philosophy/different government systems? (For example, Athenian citizen soldiers are stronger since there is democracy and they have more to say in public affairs, while in Sparta, elite soldiers are stronger)

Sorry, my fault. I thought about that the Spartans sent a "delegation," but that was to support the Ionians. Or something along those lines.

It was actually Athens (and Eretria) who sent support to the Ionian colonists. Sparta didn't do a thing during the first Persian invasion.

Before i suggested basing the learning campaign on philip's rise in macedon, but now i think that maybe the best idea for a learning campaign would be to feature the romans in an entirely fictional scenario just to teach all the basics of the game. maybe it would just be some roman settlers going into gaul and setting up a base, dealing with raiding celts

There is no need to make it fictional. In a RTS that literally claims to be historically accurate (which it is) there should be no campaign which at least has some historical background.

And after all, Alpha's suggestion is quite what you intended and it has a historical background.

[Aldandil]

Now, this is getting interesting. Unfortunately, the Britons lost in the long term due to poor management, but they were certainly fierce warriors, and offered much resistance. With some imagination...

Looks like the player's job is to provide better management!

[SMST]

Looks like the player's job is to provide better management!

That's what I said above.

[Aldandil]

Sorry, your phrasing wasn't literal enough for my brain. I don't read between the lines well.

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Thanks for helping me on the Greek grammar, SMST. I barely know the letters, really.

I will do some more research on the background of several large cities. My current knowledge is limited to remembering names, battles and wars (talking about the Spartans, I was thinking about Pausinias and the Second Greek-Persian war, but Spartan operation was halted when Pausinias grew corrupt. How I didn't manage to express that, is incredible. )

I will later forward some of my thoughts on factions, strenghts and weaknesses, technology, etc. on a PM to you, but I won't start modding seriously until probably late-alpha or beta stage. Because I'll probably need much time to plan this well, get done with school etc. And probably to gather support, because even though I know how to modify xml tags, that's about it. I have next to no skill in graphical art.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Alpha of the Eagles

[Aldandil]

Would a smaller colony be better for a tutorial campaign? It should be less epic and centuries-spanning than an Athenian campaign from hypothetical founding through the Persian wars.

Heck, you could found Syracuse or a smaller Sicilian city, develop your economy and infrastructure, get in a few fights with the Elymians or Sicels or Phoenicians or whoever, and call the tutorial over. Save the epic Athenian campaign for more experienced players.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Aldandil

[Alpha of the Eagles]

If you desperately want a Greek tutorial, doing a colony would certainly be much better than Athens in terms of making it a "tutorial." Sicily did have some natives and Carthaginian colonies, so make a small tutorial with some small friction between towns, could include most aspects of this game in one mission. Not a bad idea at all.

[Aldandil]

It doesn't have to be any particular faction, I'd just prefer a tutorial of some kind that starts out small instead of dropping directly into a war zone. It could also be a Carthaginian colony, for example. Not sure if the other factions started colonies during the time period covered, or what their equivalent would be.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Aldandil

[SMST]

Would a smaller colony be better for a tutorial campaign? It should be less epic and centuries-spanning than an Athenian campaign from hypothetical founding through the Persian wars.

Heck, you could found Syracuse or a smaller Sicilian city, develop your economy and infrastructure, get in a few fights with the Elymians or Sicels or Phoenicians or whoever, and call the tutorial over. Save the epic Athenian campaign for more experienced players.

Something just occured to me when you mentioned Syracusae!

It is not widely known that during the Invasion of Xerxes in 480 BC, there were also related fights in Sicily.

From their mother-city Tyre, Carthago recieved the order to attack the Sicilian Greeks in their colonies. The Athenians called for help against Xerxes by the tyrant of Syracuse, Gelon, and although he refused, the Persians considered the Greeks of Magna Graecia a threat and ordered the Carthagenians to attack. They were defeated by Gelon at the Battle of Himera. In 474, the Etrusican Fleet (allies of Carthage at that point) was defeated by Hieron, Gelons brother, which was also important for the Rise of Rome which would follow some decades later.

That would be a good tutorial campaign. Founding Syracuse and fighting in both land and sea battles. It would be Greek. It would be related to the Persian Wars as a fore-shadowing of the Alex Campaign. Perfect.

And I agree with you. The Rise of Athens is something for expierienced players. I had just no alternatives in my mind.

[Aldandil]

Good idea! That would include building city and infrastructure, maybe small skirmishes with Sicels or Elymians to first get the hang of battle, one large land battle, and one large sea battle. The battles should all be nicely separated in time so the player has a chance to get the feel for how things operate instead of rushing around.

Diodorus Siculus was convinced that Persia must have formed an agreement with the Carthaginians, because of how close together the two conflicts were. He may or may not have been correct, though.

The only difficulty I can see with Sicily is that the modders would need to produce Etruscan units and maybe Sicel and/or Elymian units and buildings as well. There's also the question of what happens in 474 if the player got defeated at Himera?

Edited May 20, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

or the etruscan units could be editor-only units, or they could just be simulated by romans or celts or something

[Aldandil]

I assume they'd be editor-only, at least until somebody decides to mod an entire Etruscan faction, but it wouldn't be right to represent them with Romans or Celts. 0 A.D. is supposed to be set apart from other historical RTS games by its realism and accuracy. Maybe it could work to use existing models with only their stats and textures re-done, I don't know enough about the Etruscan navy to say. But just using the Roman navy wouldn't fit.

It would be better to just make a tutorial that stops after the Battle of Himera. In fact, it could be a 2-part tutorial, with Part 2 (Battle of Cumae) simply assuming that you won at Himera. That way, it doesn't have to include complicated alternative history scenarios.

The simplest version of a Syracuse tutorial could ignore the natives entirely, and stop after Himera. That leaves out the Etruscans and the natives, so it wouldn't require anything that won't be part of the game at Alpha release, except a few maps. Later versions could build on it by adding editor-only native Sicilian factions to cut your teeth on before the big battle, and/or adding Etruscan naval units and a map for the Battle of Cumae.

Or a tutorial could do something else entirely. The Ionian Revolt, or founding a Roman colony somewhere and battling the Iberian/Celtic/Greek natives, or founding Carthage and fighting at Himera from the other side, or founding some historical Iberian city and then fighting one battle against the Romans. There must be other suitable scenarios out there that could work for a simple tutorial.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

thats kind of why i suggested just a fictional setting for the learning campaign: generic roman settlers, generic greek merchants, generic celtic raiders, like that, because all sorts of complications arise with absolute historical accuracy otherwise. though that idea for athenian colonization of sicily doesnt sound too bad. it could also be that there are six parts to the learning campaign that focus on each of the original civilizations and each on a different aspect of gameplay, like perhaps the military portion could be focusing on teh greeks at thermopylae, for example, while scouting for resources could be done by the iberians and phase advancement by the romans