post-0 AD idea: mythology

[SMST]

... work on something furiously for a month and then forget about it for a while and then start again ...

I know that - I have sometimes phases of high motivation, and then periodically a lack of that. But I never stopped working on my projects (for example, my RTS modding concept was a attempt for a Empire Earth redux some 4 or 5 years ago) and I expect to get something finished this and the next year.

It is matter of when, not if.

Thanks for your permisson!

[Aldandil]

Nice Aztec stuff. I recommend you find a good, academic Nahuatl dictionary (from an academic library, not the internet) and find out how to turn those weapon names into words that mean "user of weapon X".

ive also got legit norse/norwegian names for all of their unique units thus far and have come up with some other details for them:

Old Norse and Norwegian aren't the same language. Norwegian and Norwegian aren't even the same language! (There are more than one Norwegian language.) You should look for real academic sources for genuine Old Norse language, instead of using any of the modern Norwegian or other Scandinavian languages.

Amaterasu is still missing a unique unit.

Don't forget the Obakemono project! There are more mythical Japanese creatures described on that website than you could possibly need.

i DID, however, also change a few names: the Iron Age Hindus are now the Vedic Hindus, the Christians are now the Medieval Christians, the Soninke Muslims have become the more appropriately named Mandinka Muslims (in direct reference to the Mali Empire), and the Slavic Peoples have become the Migratory Slavs, directly based on teh slavic peoples from the migration period of europe. im also on the lookout for a slightly longer name for the polynesians and possibly for the cro-magnons, since ive taken to renaming teh factions with longer novelty names ive also got ideas for two other civilizations for an even 20: Shamanic Koreans (with their religion being native korean shamanism) and some form of Minoans, which would reimplement old ideas of legit cretan religion and mix it in with greek aquatic deities in reference to atlantis and some iberian influences in reference to the strong association with bulls that both the minoans and the iberians had. the minoans would be pretty much the only predominantly fictional civilization in the game, aside from possibly the cro-magnons.

I like the name changes. The Cro-Magnons need a name change the most, but finding a good name is hard because they include both paleolithic and neolithic periods. Epipaleolithic something or Stone Age something could work.

I would not try to make a Minoan faction. Nobody knows what their religion was: all the claims that they worshipped this or that goddess or practiced this or that ritual are literally made up off of the top of someone's head, without a shred of reality. None of it is remotely based on real archaeology or even real Greek myths. Most of it is left-over pseudoscience blathering from the 1800s, recycled in the popular imagination by non-archaeologists who don't realize how they're being misinformed. I urge you with the utmost sincerity not to go down the path of totally fictional fantasy and then claim it is actual mythology. The Cro-Magnons are already pushing it quite a lot, and you're already giving them neolithic technology and Greek Titans. Other than bronze weapons, there's nothing that the most fantastical, fictional "Minoans" could have that your Cro-Magnons don't already have with better style.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

minoans were just an idea. what id REALLY like to get is a proper north american native faction to kind of compliment the vikings (basically, quebec and labrador natives) as opposed to minoans or maybe a hunnic faction. the problem is that there isnt much in the way of mythology for any of them as far as im aware. and id only introduce another faction if i could get two so theres 20 instead of 19

EDIT: it just occurred to me that pretty much all famous vikings meet the criteria and previously established timeline for the norse faction. do you guys think i should make the norse a heroic culture instead of a chivalric one?

EDIT 2: oh, and here's the major god bonuses that ive come up with so far:

1. Blessing: Toutatis’ bonus; the heroes and demigods of Toutatis are protected by the god from enemy God Powers. They are completely immune to enemy God Powers that target individual units and are less affected by God Powers that affect everything in an area.

2. Chinampa: Chalchiuhtlicue’s bonus; the followers of Chalchiuhtlicue are capapble of building unique Chinampa aquatic farms in addition to regular Fields. Chinampa are functionally identical to Fields, but they can only be built on shorelines and there is no limit to the number of them that you can have per province.

3. Colosseum: Mars’ bonus; the worshippers of Mars can train their demigod units, the Centurion and the Gladiator, from the very beginning of the game. However, each of their demigods are 25% weaker in all aspects until they can be trained normally.

4. Crystal Towers: Beira’s bonus; the followers of Beira are capable of building unique Crystal Towers in addition to regular Outposts and Wall Towers. These towers are practically impervious to attack and can be built out in the field like Outposts, but you can only have five to a province (or five for every Civic Center you control).

5. Deceivers: Lucifer’s bonus; the followers of Lucifer can train special Deceiver hero units instead of Crusaders. Deceivers, like Crusaders, can convert enemy units to your side, though to greater effect than the Crusader, but they have poor health and attack power.

6. Destiny: Thor’s bonus; the Jarls that worship Thor are capable of performing a special suicide attack against mythological units. However, only one Jarl can use this attack at a time, and only once every five minutes.

7. Emulation: Kronos’ bonus; whenever the Shamans of Kronos enter battle, they will be transformed into ferocious cave lions to fight. They will remain cave lions for one more minute after becoming idle again, and then transform back into humans.

8. Erebus: Hades’ bonus; whenever one of Hades’ followers is killed, there is a 40% chance that Hades will send the soldier back to the surface at the Temple as a Shade to fight again.

9. Expansionism: Quetzalcoatl’s bonus; the followers of Quetzalcoatl can build additional Civic Centers from the very beginning of the game.

10. Eyes of Odin: Odin’s bonus; as long as the followers of Odin have a Temple, Odin will send down his two Ravens, Huginn and Muninn, to scout the map for them from the sky. If Huginn or Muninn are shot down, they will reappear at the Temple after one minute so that they can continue scouting.

11. Flaming Arrows: Brigantia’s bonus; the projectiles of Brigantia’s citizen-soldiers, ships, siege, and buildings are ignited by the goddess the moment they are fired so that they do more damage upon contact with the target, especially to ships, siege, and buildings.

12. Mercenaries: Tanit’s bonus; the followers of Tanit can pay 1000 gold at any of their Civic Centers to immediately summon 10-15 mercenaries of mixed origin and random numbers of each to defend the town for them: Celtic Swordsmen, Libyan Pikemen, Iberian Javelins, Mauritanian Archers, Balearic Slingers, Iberian Sword Cavalry, Italian Spear Cavalry, Numidian Javelin Cavalry, and Canaanite Chariot Archers. Each of these mercenaries is a uniquely programmed unit and is not affected by the programming of the Northwest Semitic civilization, and each mercenary is especially powerful against other units of its class. After five minutes, the mercenaries will disappear and you will need to buy their services again if you want their protection to continue.

13. Mother: Rheia’s bonus; if an infantry citizen-soldier and a Female Citizen that worship Rheia are adjacent to each other and idle for five straight minutes, a free infantry citizen-soldier or Female Citizen will appear at your Civic Center for free.

14. Olympus: Zeus’ bonus; the maximum Favor limit of Zeus’ followers is doubled.

15. Plunder: Loki’s bonus; whenever Loki’s citizen-soldiers or demigods kill an enemy gatherer or resource drop-site, 20% of the resources used to create that unit are deducted from the stockpiles of the enemy player and added to those of Loki’s followers.

16. Slavery: Set’s bonus; when the worshippers of Set kill an enemy unit, there is a 25% chance that a free Slave unit will appear at their Civic Center. Slaves can be used for labor and resource-gathering, and have poor health and a weak attack. If a non-Egyptian player captures a Slave, it will be transformed into an infantry citizen-soldier.

17. Terracotta Army: Ying Zheng’s bonus; when the worshippers of Ying Zheng create a citizen-soldier, there is a 15% chance that a free Terracotta Warrior myth unit will appear at their Temple. Additionally, there is no limit on the number of Terracotta Warriors that can be received in this way, and there is a further 10% chance that, if a cavalry citizen-soldier is created, a unique Terracotta Chariot will appear as well.

18. Thousand Ships: Poseidon’s bonus; whenever the followers of Poseidon create a warship, there is a 10% chance that another warship of that same type will be created for free.

19. Vengeance: Izanami’s bonus; whenever one of Izanami’s followers is killed, there is a 20% chance that Izanami will send them back to the battlefield immediately as malevolent ghosts: heroes and demigods return as Goryō, sunken ships become groups of Funayūrei, and citizen-soldiers and Female Citizens are transformed into Onryō. However, one minute after returning from the dead, Izanami will call the ghosts back to the underworld and they will not be able to continue fighting.

20. Vestal Virgins: Vesta’s bonus; the Female Citizens that worship Vesta are completely protected from enemy God Powers and cannot be captured by the enemy, though they can still be killed.

and here's the numbered standing for each civilization:

Egyptians: 1/3

Celts: 3/3 - completed

Mesopotamians: 0/3

Greeks: 3/3 - completed

Norse: 3/3 - completed

Cro-Magnons: 2/3

Chinese: 1/3

Aztecs: 2/3

Japanese: 1/3

Hindus: 0/3

Hittites: 0/3

Romans: 2/3

Christians: 1/3

Semites: 1/3

Persians: 0/3

Mandinka: 0/3

Slavs: 0/3

Polynesians: 0/3

EDIT 3: oh, and i finally got a demigod unit for thor! his unique demigod is the Væringjar (Varangian). though they were probably best known as russians and byzantine guards, the varangians were vikings at the core. at the moment, ive got them wielding two-handed bearded axes and have given them a large bonus vs. all mortal units. thats all fine and good, but id prefer to change it so that they have something more unique

oh, and i also decided to change the norse drengr (their mainstay infantry) to Húskarl, because i just remembered thats what i had planned to have as their mainstay infantry before my harddrive crashed

speaking of which, concerning the use of both old norse and modern norwegian....i guess thats just me being lazy thing is, not all of the units that i want to or can include for teh norse have an applicable or equivalent name in old norse, so i fill that in with modern norwegian if i have to. speaking of which, i may end up having that problem for the egyptians, because ive yet to find a latinized egyptian dictionary that can address alot of the units that i have for that civilization. the Mi-neb axeman was a stroke of luck, really

Edited June 7, 2010 by oshron

[oshron]

well i asked around on a history forum that i frequent for ideas on demigods, and here's what i now have for demigods. these only include new additions:

Medjay (Ra's demigod, elite nubian security archer)

"Zealot" (Christian)

Morningstar (Jehovah's demigod)

Pil Malhamit (Tanit's demigod, war elephant archer)*

Gibborim (Yahweh's demigod, hebrew warrior protected by God)

"Iron Chariot" (Dagon's demigod, canaanite chariot team that was referenced several times in the bible)

Saravan (Persian, sassanid-era multipurpose cavalry, meant to compliment the paighan that serves as the persian mainstay infantry here)

Anusiya (Ahura Mazda's demigod, the legendary persian immortal)

Pil Jangi (Zurvan's demigod, indian war elephant that barrels through enemy lines)

Pohiri Ihe (Makemake's demigod, Rapa Nui spearman)*

* these two actually arent new, but i now just have better names for them

the units with their names in parentheses are ones with english names; i still need to get civ-appropriate names for them

i also had a realization earlier: theres a much better aztec infantry swordsman that i can include than the macquital, and its more accurate, too: the Quauhololli, which will fill the same role but uses a CLUB instead of a SWORD. its more fitting for a mainstay infantry commoner than a noble warrior. besides, macquital were pretty much reserved for the jaguar warriors. i also found out about another aztec weapon, the Huitzauhqui, which is also a club, but with inlaid obsidian edges much like a macquital. i decided to make this the unique major god technology of Tezcatlipoca, who is the god of obsidian, and made it so that he emphasizes melee infantry

EDIT: i just found out! since ive redone the japanese timeline to go from 250 to 1185, i can now include benkei, who was born in 1155 and died in 1189! the japanese could be a heroic civilization yet!!

Edited June 7, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

There's lots of mythology for North American cultures, the problem is finding a book that actually discusses them with any detail or accuracy. Once you step outside the more popular cultures, finding info becomes a chore.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

though i dont want to lump many civilizations together, i think i may try to just make a collective "First Nations" faction (Canadian American Indians) and make each major god focus on one of the more common or more famous members of the First Nations and tribes closely associated with them. at the moment, though, ill just focus on the 18 that are currently listed down

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Old Norse and Norwegian aren't the same language. Norwegian and Norwegian aren't even the same language! (There are more than one Norwegian language.) You should look for real academic sources for genuine Old Norse language, instead of using any of the modern Norwegian or other Scandinavian languages.

The language today spoken on Iceland is the closest you get to Old Norse. I'm Norwegian, so I can confirm it's not like Old Norse at all. Both modern Norwegian languages is closer to the Germanic languages (German, Dutch, and the Saxon part of English, with a faint touch of Latin) than the language of our ancestors.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Alpha of the Eagles

[Jeru]

The language today spoken on Iceland is the closest you get to Old Norse.

Ejyafallajokull!

[oshron]

The language today spoken on Iceland is the closest you get to Old Norse. I'm Norwegian, so I can confirm it's not like Old Norse at all. Both modern Norwegian languages is closer to the Germanic languages (German, Dutch, and the Saxon part of English, with a faint touch of Latin) than the language of our ancestors.

thanks for telling me that; ill work towards replacing the current norse names with ones in icelandic

oh, and i came to a decision about the cro-magnons: ive decided that, because theyre so primitive, they will only get three citizen-soldiers: the Tribesman (spearman), Mammoth-hunter (javelinist), and Wolfdog (cavalry). since they have only those three, and they are all trained at the Civic Center, why should they have a barracks and complicate things? so, they are thus far the only civilization to have the Barracks as a forbidden building. they still get a fortress, though, more for fairness than anything else, and a battering ram.

theyd still be able to USE a barracks if they capture it, but they just cant BUILD it on their own

btw, ive been thinking, and maybe the best novelty name for the cro-magnons would instead be "Prehistoric Peoples" which allows for more freedom, as they arent just Cro-Magnons, and maybe even some fictionalization in that they could be Cro-Magnon/Neanderthal hybrids. personally, im content with them being named "Cro-Magnons", but what do you all think?

Edited June 11, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

I don't like the name Cro-Magnon for them, but Prehistoric Peoples is too broad and could include everything from non-literate bronze-age and iron-age cultures to Australopithecus, depending on what one considers to be "People." Stone Age Peoples is a little less ambiguous though has many of the same problems, but may be your best option. That or Lithic Peoples.

I don't know what you mean by a subjective word like "primitive," but I can tell you what weapons technologies are known from archaeology. Which units were you thinking of banning for the Cro-Magnons? They shouldn't have any siege units for the most part, except whatever is necessary for balance.

20,0000-150,000 bc: First Homo sapiens evolve from Homo heidelbergensis. At this time the existing technologies were: hafted stone and wood tools and weapons, eating meat and shellfish, creation of fire and cooking food, wooden spears, boats, burial of the dead, building light shelters, paving wet floors with stones, and making leather. (This gives you infantry spear, and probably hide shields.)

130,000-115,000 bc: quern/metate (stones used to grind wild grain), eating fish

116,000 bc : ochre pigment crayons

90,000-75,000 bc: beads

75,000 bc: bone and antler tools

70,000 bc: bone awl (implies or at least allows sewing clothes)

70,000 bc: maybe ceramics

70,000-60,000 bc: microlith technology

32,000 bc: atlatl, sewing needle, cave painting, carvings (infantry javelin/atlatl)

32,000-28,000 bc: trade networks, prismatic blades, basket weaving

28,000 bc: textiles, ceramic figurines, fertile woman figures, nets, elaborate funerals, semi-sedentism (more substantial buildings)

28,000-12,800 bc: herbal medicine, archery, barbed points, harpoons, pressure-flaking (healer, infantry archer)

15,000 bc: built permanent houses, frozen food storage (underground in permafrost) (quite substantial houses)

14,000 bc: domesticated dogs (cavalry sword)

14,000 bc: ceramic pottery

12,800 bc: natufian material culture begins in the levant (hunter-gatherer villages, including by this time stone buildings)

before 9,000 bc: fishhooks, oil lamps, stone quarrying

9,000 bc: first domesticated crop (wheat) (by this time hunter-gatherers are already living in permanent villages in many parts of the world)

8,000-7,000 bc: domesticated goats, cattle, and hairy sheep (but not woolly sheep) (this should include the ability to get dairy, but not wool, from corralling livestock)

6,000 bc: irrigation

5,000-4,000 bc: plow

4,000-3,000 bc: domesticated llama and alpaca (but probably not yet woolly alpacas)

3,500 bc: copper, and maybe domesticated horses (so you could give them cavalry spear, and/or allow them to use horses for dairy)

2,860 bc: cotton cultivation (in the Andes)

before 800 bc: domesticated turkey (I don't know the dates for chickens, ducks, and geese)

Neolithic technology also includes the spindle and loom.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

I don't like the name Cro-Magnon for them, but Prehistoric Peoples is too broad and could include everything from non-literate bronze-age and iron-age cultures to Australopithecus, depending on what one considers to be "People." Stone Age Peoples is a little less ambiguous though has many of the same problems, but may be your best option. That or Lithic Peoples.

"Lithic Peoples" sounds good to me

I don't know what you mean by a subjective word like "primitive," but I can tell you what weapons technologies are known from archaeology. Which units were you thinking of banning for the Cro-Magnons? They shouldn't have any siege units for the most part, except whatever is necessary for balance.

most of the units are forbidden, kind of like with the aztecs, though theres even fewer soldiers than with the aztecs: they thus far have the Tribesman (Infantry Spearman), Mammoth-hunter (Infantry Javelinist), Wolfdog (Cavalry Swordsman), Tribeswoman (Female Citizen), Mantlet (Ram), and Trading Raft (Merchant Ship)

they also have an as-yet unnamed Trader and Light Warship. this pretty much severe lack of units will be made up for in speed and strength and numerous myth units. also, since i was thinking of banning the barracks, all Cro-Magnons/Lithic Peoples will have the special trait of not researching armor technologies (and possibly rank upgrades like Advanced and Elite) and instead receive them automatically for all of their soldiers when they advance. i had come up with this a while ago in the very early stages of faction development when there was a seperate armory building where they didnt get shields at all and couldnt research armor, but COULD upgrade weapons technology. alternatively, the cro-magnons could have entirely unique weapon technologies that are researched at the civic center (say, Stone Weapons, Bone Weapons, Polished Stone Weapons, Obsidian Weapons, Copper Weapons, like that, though they would be virtually the same to whatever other weapon technologies there are for the other factions)

i also had an idea for scenarios and random maps where, like in AOM, the "gaia" player (the neutral world player to which all of the resources, animals, aesthetics, and ambient buildings on a map belong) can be granted a different civilization so that the things the player sees in the wild are different. see, in some maps on AOM, there would be aesthetic ruins lying around to make the map look more interesting, and each civilization in that game had a different look for each building: the greek ruins resembled typical parthenon-like ruins, the egyptian ruins looked like they had been stolen from a temple, like that. anyway, i was thinking that this could maybe be taken a step further in Godstorm by making animals and other entities change as well. for example, the neutral "gaia" player could be made egyptian for a north africa-style map, and that would change the animals on the map, like regular domestic goats would become Nubian Rams, which would simply look different but function exactly the same as a goat from any other civilization. this would also help cut back on alot of complexity i had planned before that would have a few dozen animals in the game. some would HAVE to be unique, but i think this could work otherwise. also like AOM, i imagine that any unit could be given to "gaia" and any "gaia" unit could be given to a player civilization (so that a king could, say, have pet wolves that will fight for him in a scenario, or so that there could be centaurs in teh wilderness that are aligned to no one)

oh, and since i redated the japanese to stretch from the Yamato to the end of the Heian, i was able to give them Heroic civilization hero units like the greeks instead of just giving them generic samurai and ninja. that also allowed me to work out the rest of their demigods. here's the japanese demigods and heroes:

Samurai (City Phase demigod, Infantry Swordsman)

Yamabushi (Izanagi's demigod, class undecided)

Shinobi (Amaterasu's demigod, Infantry Swordsman that attacks at range and hand-to-hand with shuriken and a ninjato, respectively, and is also a 'stealth' unit)

Kanabo (Izanami's demigod, Infantry 'Swordsman' armed with a heavy metallic staff taht smashes enemies, ignoring inherent armor)

for the heroes, since there was still a lack of applicable heroes, most of them ARE entirely ficticious, but there are a few historical people in there. i'll give a little history about them and what i plan for their abilities to be. since theres so few compared the greeks, each major god has 3 heroes, first one in the village phase, then in the city, and then in the legend phase

IZANAGI

* Kintaro (Village Phase infantry swordsman, possesses incredible strength; im not too familiar with Kintaro's legend yet, but he's a famous folk character in Japan who possessed enormous strength, so im thinking he will kind of be an anti-building and -siege unit and could also maybe send enemies flying by punching them)

* Minamoto no Yorimitsu (City Phase infantry archer; this is a historical character, so im not too sure on his real abilities, but i think ill make him a longbow-type unit so he has greater range, which supports real samurai abilities)

* Jiraiya (Legend Phase infantry swordsman, occasionally turns into a gigantic toad to fight; though famous in the West for his inclusion in Naruto, Jiraiya IS, in fact, a folkloric character from Japan, a ninja who had mastered toad magic)

AMATERASU

* Tokoyo (Village Phase infantry swordsman; teh daughter of a nobleman who sought out to find her exiled father and offered herself as sacrifice to a sea monster in lieu of a young girl, she actually managed to kill the sea monster with a dagger, which lifted a curse from the emperor which had caused him to exile her father)

* Tomoe Gozen (City Phase cavalry archer; a historic character and one of the few REAL cases of a female samurai)

* Saito Musashibo Benkei (Legend Phase cavalry archer; a historical character, though his history has been retold and embellished so many times that it is now impossible to know where the the legend ends and history begins)

IZANAMI

* Zennyo Ryuo (Village Phase female citizen; a minor rain goddess, im thinking that Zennyo Ryuo's special ability will help with Izanami's economy rather than as a fighter)

* Kiyohime (City Phase female citizen, transforms into a giant fire-breathing snake when she enters battle; this is a relatively famous legend involving a woman who became smitten with a monk and, when the monk tried to get away from her, she became enraged and turned into a giant snake)

* Orochimaru (Legend Phase infantry swordsman, occasionally turns into a gigantic snake to fight; like with Jiraiya, most in the West only know of Orochimaru from Naruto, but he, too, is a folkloric character, a former follower of Jiraiya who tried to kill him and his wife, Tsunade)

[Ephestion]

Greeks, Celts, Egyptians, Norse, and Mesopotamians...I would take out Celts and add China.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Greek, Egyptians, Norse

Mesoamericans, Hindus, Chinese

[oshron]

ALL of those civilizations are already in there, except for mesoamericans because they are represented solely by the aztecs and not other mesoamerican tribes (though it could be conceivable that tribes that the aztecs subjugated and encountered could be "included", namely the Tlaxcala

[oshron]

hey, all

ive been putting alot of my efforts into my modern RTS lately, but, after starting the turtledove book "The Breath of God" i got inspired to come up with some further ideas for the mythology mod. first and foremost, ive once again renamed the factions. ive decided to cut out their novelty names (though the timelines still apply) and order them based on their former positions in order of the packs theyd be introduced in and what their former place was alphabetically:

Egyptians

Celts

Mesopotamians

Greeks

Norse

Cro-Magnons (first expansion)

Chinese (first expansion)

Aztecs (first expansion)

Japanese (first expansion)

Hindus OR Indians* (first expansion)

Hittites (second expansion)

Romans (second expansion)

Christians* (second expansion)

Semites (second expansion)

Persians (second expansion)

Mandinka (third expansion)

Slavs (third expansion)

Polynesians (third expansion)

*im debating whether or not i should change it from hindus to indians. thoughts?

*i may decide to redate the christian faction to focus on the crusades especially because the christians were a pacifist cult before they rose to dominance

some other ideas i came up with are the inclusion of additional units with new expansions. like all the other units, these would only be available to SOME civilizations and not all of them. the only two ideas i have thus far, though, are Standard Bearers (which grant minor morale boosts to units that can see him; would only go to unified civilizations like the romans and christians and not to more tribal factions like the celts and possibly the greeks, and they could potentially have different flags for each major god, like Zeus would have a thunderbolt, Poseidon would have a trident, and Hades would have a helmet) and Magicians (which would only become available during the Legend Phase for balance and would potentially have different magic powers for each major god, or perhaps just for each civilization, like greek magicians would use lightning while cro-magnons would probably have generic fire or light; this would only be applied if a magician isnt made into a hero for a different faction)

the inclusion of magicians is inspired by various turtledove novels in which magic is present, kind of for the idea of recreating those with the mythology mod.

Edited June 30, 2010 by oshron

[SMST]

Hmm, if the word hadn't been abused by the most cruel and tragicomic German's ideology, I would the Indian faction "Aryans". Otherwise, I would prefer "Hindus", since Indian culture is much more than Hinduism.

What are "Semites"? The Hebrew?

[Jeru]

"Semites" is primarily a linguistic group. Probably existed as one people before the split into Aramaic, Hebrew, Canaanite, Arabic, some languages spoken in Ethiopia etc. but like the Indo-Europeans, it is so ancient I doubt that is in recorded history anywhere.

[SMST]

I know what Semitic means in lingusitic terms. I was only wondering what people oshron is referring to by naming a faction "Semites". As you said, there is no record of such a people.

[Aldandil]

*i may decide to redate the christian faction to focus on the crusades especially because the christians were a pacifist cult before they rose to dominance

Well, there is a long time span between the ascension of Constantine I to the throne of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the First Crusade, and pretty soon after Constantine got the throne the official Christian religion become more militaristic (I have little idea what the unofficial, illegal "heresies" were like, but they weren't in control of the army so it won't matter for this); for example religious-military imagery is visible in the monuments of Justinian's reign. You could just as easily use the Holy Roman Empire or the Byzantines or West Roman Empire as the Crusaders. Whether you choose to focus on one of those tighter time periods or use a broader time period that covers many more-modern Christian European eras is really up to you. (OK, "Byzantines" also covers a big time period, but is more specific than "Christians.") If you do decide to tighten the temporal focus a renaming wouldn't be a bad idea, just to be more specific: it would be the equivalent of using Mandinka instead of generic "Muslims."

Edited June 30, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

well christianity was a bit more localized than islam was (with islam, youve got peoples from persia, arabia, the levant, and most of africa included, whereas, for the relevent time period, christianity was almost entirely in europe). the reason i was thinking of redating it was, again, because when it started out as a sect of judaism, it was pacifistic and remained as such pretty much until it became rome's state religion

the semites are one of few civilizations where i lumped together a few groups. one major god focuses on the Phoenicians and, by extent, the Carthaginians (carthage was originally a phoenician colony); the second focuses on the hebrews; and the third on the canaanites as a whole, but especially on the philistines

hindus it is, then

[Aldandil]

well christianity was a bit more localized than islam was (with islam, youve got peoples from persia, arabia, the levant, and most of africa included, whereas, for the relevent time period, christianity was almost entirely in europe). the reason i was thinking of redating it was, again, because when it started out as a sect of judaism, it was pacifistic and remained as such pretty much until it became rome's state religion

I know. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that the Crusades happened many centuries after Christianity became Rome's state religion, so you have more options than just the Crusades.

[oshron]

i suppose youre right there. but i plan to have alot of their units be derived from the crusades. i think maybe itll end up that either the not-initial units will be directly based on the crusades, or the units will all be based on the crusades but resemble less than noble soldiers until they get to their elite forms, in which their outfits will be directly based on teh crusades. what do you guys think?

[oshron]

thanks to Jeru, i was able to get names for almost every single semitic entity for the game! im about to do a run-down of the carthaginians for 0ad to get names for the buildings, but the names for most of the units are down now

ill also just run their super units by everyone again: in the city phase, all semitic players get the Sacred Band unit; in the Empire Phase, Tanit gets the carthaginian war elephant, Yahweh gets the Gibborim (iirc, "mighty" in hebrew and refers to a powerful warrior), and Dagon gets the Iron Chariot

of course, all of these are properly translated into their native languages

the semites also get these citizen-soldiers and other basic units:

Ish Kherev (a warrior wielding a Canaanite sickle-sword, this weapon was adapted by the Egyptians and later used by the Hebrews as well)

"Spearman" (I actually forgot to ask Jeru to translate this one for me so I'm hoping he'll get back to me on this soon; this'll just be a generic period spear-wielding soldier, maybe a phalangite-type unit similar to a hoplite)

Qashat (a generic archer, possibly wielding a Hyksos composite bow. This works for both the Hebrews AND the Canaanites because the Hyksos presumably came from around the same location as the Canaanites--they were an Asiatic tribe--and the Hebrews adapted a lot of Egyptian weapons and tactics, so the composite bow would be among them)

Qalla' (slingers were common throughout the ancient world, but this one here is in DIRECT reference to David of the Israelites)

Merkavah (a chariot pretty much the same as any other, but this is specifically supposed to be in reference to the Canaanites. Undoubtedly the other Semitic peoples would have used them, but the Canaanites are the only ones that I myself know of to have definitively used them during the Exodus period, inferred from their use of iron chariots. I'm kinda cheating here, though, because for Tanit's bonus, "Mercenaries", one of the mercenary soldiers that can be summoned is a generic "Canaanite Chariot Archer")

Ishah (the Semitic Female Citizen)

Sokher (the Semitic overland merchant unit)

Rofeh (the Semitic Healer unit; I'm come to the decision that Healers, which I've already decided will be left out of at least the initial release of the mythology mod, will not be available to all civilizations because there will be some Heroes, myth units, and God Powers that can restore health, like the Norse Valkyrie or Egyptian Pharaoh or Celtic Druid will be able to heal allied units. With the Semites, I'm still debating whether or not they should get a Healer unit. What do you all think?)

'Amud Esh (the Semitic Standard Bearer, this guy is in direct reference to the legendary cloud that followed the Israelites during the Exodus during the day, which became a pillar of fire at night. I once saw a history program that suggested that, on the assumption that it wasn't an act of God, that the pillar of fire and cloud may have been inspired by a tactic Moses developed that utilized torches on high poles that were carried around by men. They used smoke during the day and fire at night, hence the pillars of cloud/smoke and fire. He's functionally the same as any other Standard Bearer but just uses a tall torch instead of a flag. It could be possible that he also has a flag on there, but that's up in the air. What would be cool is if, under normal lighting conditions, they had just smoke, but under darker conditions, it changed into fire, to stay accurate to the legend and just for a really cool effect in scenarios with a day-night cycle.)

Migdal Matzor (the only Semitic siege weapon, essentially the same thing as an Egyptian siege tower. This is kind of for balance since they get almost all of the infantry units and because of their demigod units. Tanit in particular can kind of "cheat" by suddenly being able to get especially powerful versions of every basic citizen-soldier through her Mercenaries bonus and also grants a war elephant, which practically doubles as a siege weapon, and Yahweh's Gibborim is immune to enemy God Powers)

Sfinat Sokher (the Semitic naval merchant)

Dovrah (the Semitic light warship, this is supposed to be like a Hebrew adaptation of an Egyptian riverboat)

Sfinat Qrav (the Semitic medium warship, which I suppose could double as their heavy warship, too. This one is supposed be a Carthaginian warship, a trireme, probably, and should serve as the mainstay of the navy while they are supported by the Dovrah barges, which could possibly carry more soldiers so that the triremes provide covering fire while the barges sail forward and deploy landing troops)

Sfinat Dayag (the Semitic fishing ship. This won't be available in the initial release for any faction, but all civilizations get it. This is, again, for balance, even if that civilization never had a big fishing economy, ie, the Slavs and Aztecs. On maps that would be mostly water, fishing economies will become VERY important, so giving a fishing ship to every civilization is just to make things fair)

[Aldandil]

I don't have any expertise with Canaanites or ancient Hebrews so I can't offer a historically or mythologically specific opinion, but if you are wondering whether they should have a healer unit, ask yourself this: if they don't have a healer, what specifically could/would you give them instead (what hero, god power, or myth unit) and would you prefer to use that or a healer unit?

Edited July 5, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

well thats part of the criteria, but i also want to go with some more historical evidence: if there was significant evidence of it in the history of that country, then they get it. like the polynesians probably wont get one(not sure why, but im not quite sure theyll get one)

this actually also brings up a bit of a complication for the aztecs: i now need to come up with a new demigod unit for chalchiuhtlicue, the goddess of water, who previously had a medic as her superunit