post-0 AD idea: mythology

[oshron]

Likewise, if the throwing-axeman is Celtic, why do you say that he is "more fitting" for the Norse? If the Norse didn't historically have such soldiers, or at least have myths of such soldiers, then I don't think their faction shouldn't have them in the mod.

its kind of in tribute to AOM; in that game, the norse had only one ranged unit, and it was a throwing-axeman. the reason i say its more fitting is because the vikings are more associated with axes than the celts. also, the norse dont have many ranged units, and even though the throwing-axeman is only available to odin, i think it helps even things out a bit more

I'm also confused why the Theban Sacred Band is given to the Semites instead of the Greeks. It works with people who were allies of the Hittites or Trojans, or who supposedly lived in Asia Minor (although I think Thracian peltasts also fought for the Greeks, as well) but when did the Thebans serve the Phoenicians or Syrians?

its not actually the theban sacred band--the carthaginians are the ones that its more directly deriving from--but i thought that story about the theban sacred band beating the spartans was a bit too goo to pass up in terms of derivation for the unit

Basically, you have a lot of good ideas, most of which I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on. But in my opinion if something departs from accuracy, I prefer a systematic reason (ie, necessary for game balance) that still makes sense in the context. If this mod were made accurately, it would kick much butt and I would want to try it. But if it was inaccurate, I would find it much less appealing. I think that making it as accurate as possible, in addition to (eventually) adding more factions, is what could really set this apart from AoM.

accuracy is a major thing, but ABSOLUTE accuracy isnt necessary as far as im concerned; it shouldnt get in the way of enjoyable gameplay

Edit: Leiomano and stingray-spear: isn't the sharktooth club more of a sword-type weapon? How long were they, what was their reach? Did the stingray spears retain their venom after the animal died? The two weapons might just work differently (but I don't know).

functionally, anyone with a club or axe is being counted as a swordsman for the purposes of programming. for instance, the basic norse melee infantryman is variably wielding a viking axe or a viking sword, but he acts in the same way as a swordsman unit from any other faction.

as for the leiomano, it IS more sword-like--in fact, its pretty similar to the aztec macana, which was also something of a bladed club or an axe rather than a sword. im not too sure on the size, but i think its about the length of a forearm or maybe even as long as a comparable sword from another culture, more or less. the stingray spear is kind of a stretch; it was presented as a maori weapon in the Spike television series 'Deadliest Warrior' but i looked it up on wikipedia for quick reference and didnt find anything, so i decided to mark it off as a fictionalized weapon for the people of rapa nui. theres also precedence in other myths: iirc, the son of Circe in greek myth used a spear tipped with a stingray's barb to kill odysseus in the events after the odyssey ended.

EDIT 2: So far, according to the journals I'm finding in JSTOR, the word vimāna has several uses (the first I list is the relevant one for the myth units):

1. A flying chariot or "aerial vehicle" used by a god or a gandharva (Classical Sanskrit)(the myth unit)

2. a shrine or tower in a temple (Classical Sanskrit)(seems to be the most common meaning)

3. the palace of a human emperor (Classical Sanskrit)

4. the palace of a god living in the celestial/heavenly realm (Pali, Jaina Prakrit)

interesting. yknow, this actually reminds me of teh Sky Palace from an old super nintendo game i have, which was the home and base of operations of The Master (basically God, but censored in the english release because of laws at the time). so i think ill chalk up Vimana as an editor-only unit

EDIT 3: The only Samarāńgana Sūtradhāra translation book I've found in a quick search of pretty much all nearby public libraries (we have an awesome local interlibrary loan system) is from 1966. That's probably more recent than anything professional that would have been posted online, but not as recent as I'd prefer. The advantage of this book is that it also discusses architecture and ships, which could be useful for buildings and historical units. Its usefulness in those regards will depend on the time period you want for the Indian faction.

cool! i said it before, but ive decided to redate the hindu faction to iron age india, so its now the Iron Age Hindus instead of the Harappan Hindus (or maybe ill change it to Vedic Hindus, i dunno). this means alot more technology becomes available for them

btw, what do you think the hindu hero unit should be? with the hindu faction ideas of others, the only hero unit ive really seen is just a generic "Prince" unit, which isnt very good as far as im concerned. and since the japanese are now a chivalric culture instead of a heroic one like i originally planned (because of the new timeline for the japanese, nearly all of their more famous warriors like benkei and historical figures from the sengoku period are out of the question), i want to see if i cant find more factions that can be heroic ones

btw, i should probably clarify what i mean by "heroic" and "chivalric". i decided a long time ago that each faction will be categorized as "Heroic", "Sovereign", or "Chivalric". these all determine what kinds of hero units they get for regular gameplay: heroic cultures get historical and mythological named characters as heroes(like the greeks); sovereign cultures get special "leader" heroes as well as a mass-production hero to support the sovereign (like the celts or egyptians); and chivalric cultures get one or sometimes two mass-production heroes (like the mesopotamians or norse). this is also based on AOM, but thats kinda beside the point. what ive basically decided for each culture thus far is this:

Celts (Sovereign) King and Druids

Egyptians (Sovereign) Pharaoh and Viziers

Greeks (Heroic) various Greek characters

Mesopotamians (Chivalric) Priests/Priestesses

Norse (Chivalric) Jarls

Aztecs (Chivalric) Jaguar Warriors

Chinese (undecided, probably Chivalric or Heroic) ??

Cro-Magnons (Sovereign) Chieftain and Shaman

Hindus (undecided) ??

Japanese (Chivalric) Samurai and Ninja

Christians (Chivalric) Crusader

Hittites (undecided, probably Heroic) various Trojan and Hittite characters like Hector

Persians (undecided, probably Chivalric, maybe Heroic) either Satraps or historical persian generals and leader like darius or xerxes

Romans (Heroic) various historical roman characters like caesar and scipio

Northwest (undecided, probably Heroic) various historical and mythical characters like david and hannibal

Polynesians (undecided) ??

Slavs (Chivalric) Druzina, or maybe changed to something else

Soninke (undecided, probably Chivalric or Heroic) either a single mass-production hero or mali emperors like mansa musa that give economic rather than military bonuses

Edited April 28, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

also, the norse dont have many ranged units, and even though the throwing-axeman is only available to odin, i think it helps even things out a bit more

I think in 0 A.D. the Celtic faction is supposed to have no ranged units because they considered them cowardly. You might look at how they are balanced to see how it's done, and whether it would work for your Norse (assuming the Norse really had no ranged weapons historically).

So the Sacred Band you mention isn't really the Theban one, you were just mentioning them in comparison. Do you know what name the Carthigians had for their "Sacred Band" unit?

as for the leiomano, it IS more sword-like--in fact, its pretty similar to the aztec macana, which was also something of a bladed club or an axe rather than a sword. im not too sure on the size, but i think its about the length of a forearm or maybe even as long as a comparable sword from another culture, more or less. the stingray spear is kind of a stretch; it was presented as a maori weapon in the Spike television series 'Deadliest Warrior' but i looked it up on wikipedia for quick reference and didnt find anything, so i decided to mark it off as a fictionalized weapon for the people of rapa nui. theres also precedence in other myths: iirc, the son of Circe in greek myth used a spear tipped with a stingray's barb to kill odysseus in the events after the odyssey ended.

I see what you mean, and I agree the stingray spear makes the most sense as a myth unit. But are spears given different stats from swords?

BTW the Aztec sword is called the macauitl.

btw, what do you think the hindu hero unit should be? with the hindu faction ideas of others, the only hero unit ive really seen is just a generic "Prince" unit, which isnt very good as far as im concerned. and since the japanese are now a chivalric culture instead of a heroic one like i originally planned (because of the new timeline for the japanese, nearly all of their more famous warriors like benkei and historical figures from the sengoku period are out of the question), i want to see if i cant find more factions that can be heroic ones

btw, i should probably clarify what i mean by "heroic" and "chivalric". i decided a long time ago that each faction will be categorized as "Heroic", "Sovereign", or "Chivalric". these all determine what kinds of hero units they get for regular gameplay: heroic cultures get historical and mythological named characters as heroes(like the greeks); sovereign cultures get special "leader" heroes as well as a mass-production hero to support the sovereign (like the celts or egyptians); and chivalric cultures get one or sometimes two mass-production heroes (like the mesopotamians or norse).

The Hindus had their own heroic myths, such as the Mahabharata, that seem to paint a picture of a society similar to the one depicted by Homer. (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey actually describe early Iron Age Greek society more than the Bronze Age society, despite their intended setting).

I don't know enough about the time periods when the Mahabharata is supposed to take place, and I think your Greek time frame spans the Bronze and Iron ages, so I'll mention two time periods for Greeks and Indians. This is what I would change from your list:

Archaic and Classical Greeks: Chivalric (for hoplite warfare) (unless Spartiates and Hoplites are super units, distinct from hero units, in which case Heroic should work fine)

Bronze Age and Dark Age Greeks: Heroic

Mahabharata-style Hindus: Heroic

later Indians: no idea, sorry

Persians: Sovereign

Romans: no idea, but the historians at 0 A.D. would be able to advise you on the closest model out of your three

Cro-Magnons: Heroic (since you are dealing with stone age cultures, and stopping before the Bronze Age when cities and central governments really took off)

Norse: Chivalric or Heroic, possibly (depending on time period? I'm not an expert on these cultures)

Mesopotamians: Sovereign or Chivalric (I know the Epic of Gilgamesh gives a rather Heroic impression, but their cities were quite hierarchical)

Celts: Chivalric may work better than Sovereign for them, again I'd see what advice the 0 A.D. historians can give you

The Egyptians, interestingly enough, might not work as a Sovereign faction. I don't know what precisely a "mass-produced hero" is or how it differs from 0 A.D.'s super units, but I think the Egyptians had unarmored, lightly armed foot-soldiers (cannon fodder, basically) and some leaders in chariots. I don't know whether or not they had anything comparable to the Persian Immortals or Macedonian cavalry. If they had nothing comparable, then Heroic or Chivalric might actually work better for them.

OK, actually you know what? Maybe I'm basing my list more on what those names sound like to me, instead of on any real understanding of the mechanics you're talking about.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

I think in 0 A.D. the Celtic faction is supposed to have no ranged units because they considered them cowardly. You might look at how they are balanced to see how it's done, and whether it would work for your Norse (assuming the Norse really had no ranged weapons historically).

well, actually, the norse here DO have ranged weapons, iirc, an archer. i based their regular units on known viking age weaponry

So the Sacred Band you mention isn't really the Theban one, you were just mentioning them in comparison. Do you know what name the Carthigians had for their "Sacred Band" unit?

I see what you mean, and I agree the stingray spear makes the most sense as a myth unit. But are spears given different stats from swords?

no, im not sure on the name for the carthaginian sacred band. as far as i know, its just "sacred band" but ill change it if i need to. as for spears, im actually not too sure, spears just generally have a greater reach than swords

The Hindus had their own heroic myths, such as the Mahabharata, that seem to paint a picture of a society similar to the one depicted by Homer. (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey actually describe early Iron Age Greek society more than the Bronze Age society, despite their intended setting).

thanks. ill look into those. i was starting to think that maybe a good hero would be an Avatar, a mortal(i guess)incarnation of the various hindu gods, and they could have different powers depending on which major god you chose

Archaic and Classical Greeks: Chivalric (for hoplite warfare) (unless Spartiates and Hoplites are super units, distinct from hero units, in which case Heroic should work fine)

Bronze Age and Dark Age Greeks: Heroic

Mahabharata-style Hindus: Heroic

later Indians: no idea, sorry

Persians: Sovereign

Romans: no idea, but the historians at 0 A.D. would be able to advise you on the closest model out of your three

Cro-Magnons: Heroic (since you are dealing with stone age cultures, and stopping before the Bronze Age when cities and central governments really took off)

Norse: Chivalric or Heroic, possibly (depending on time period? I'm not an expert on these cultures)

Mesopotamians: Sovereign or Chivalric (I know the Epic of Gilgamesh gives a rather Heroic impression, but their cities were quite hierarchical)

Celts: Chivalric may work better than Sovereign for them, again I'd see what advice the 0 A.D. historians can give you

maybe i should have typed it up a bit differently. the type of hero/civilization doesnt change as the game progresses, each faction has just one hero type available at all times. the main idea is that sovereign cultures are ones that have very well-known or distinctive kings, rulers, etc, heroic cultures are ones that have lots of distinctive characters(like the greeks), and chivalric is actually kind of the filler culture. the main function of heroes will be to fight myth units and collect relics(if relics are included) as well as serving as primary characters in the campaigns.

The Egyptians, interestingly enough, might not work as a Sovereign faction. I don't know what precisely a "mass-produced hero" is or how it differs from 0 A.D.'s super units, but I think the Egyptians had unarmored, lightly armed foot-soldiers (cannon fodder, basically) and some leaders in chariots. I don't know whether or not they had anything comparable to the Persian Immortals or Macedonian cavalry. If they had nothing comparable, then Heroic or Chivalric might actually work better for them.

the egyptians have the pharaoh as their sovereign. a "mass-production hero" is a hero that you can have more than one of at a time and can pretty much train infinitely. the norse jarls are an example of this, you can create as many of them as you want to. in contrast, heroic cultures get several heroes, but you can only have one of each of those heroes because theyre actual characters and not generic commanders like jarls. with sovereign cultures, you get one hero to start with (the sovereign, hence the name) as well as one other hero that you can make alot of to support him, hence the celtic king and druid and the egyptian pharaoh and vizier (in AOM, the other egyptian hero was a priest, but i decided to reassign them as mesopotamian heroes in reference to the epic of gilgamesh).

and yeah, i may not have worded what i said as well as i thought i did. ill go back and explain the heroes in greater detail:

King (Celtic, Sovereign): the celtic leader is teh King, based on Arthurian legend. he's a powerful infantry swordsman-type unit that has bonuses versus all unit types, but he's no match for large groups of mortal soldiers. if the king dies, he'll be replaced by an heir. the King can also yell a Battlecry to boost allied morale and lower that of enemies

Druid (Celtic, Sovereign support): the King is supported by the Druid, a magician wearing a ram's skull, he uses magic to attack and utilizes another kind of magic to heal allied units at range

Pharaoh (Egyptian, Sovereign): the Pharaoh is the egyptian leader. he, too, is a powerful warrior, but only against myth units. he uses magic to attack at range and switches to a khopesh(sickle-sword)when enemies get too close for his magic to be used effectively. he can also Empower buildings and building foundations, causing them to be built faster or to train units/research technologies faster(this is basically a kinder form of the stereotypical whippings that you see in stories about the exodus)

Vizier (Egyptian, Sovereign support): the Phaaoh's support unit. i havent come up with much else forthe vizier yet, but he'll be functionally similiar to the Priest from AOM, healing allied units and using magic to attack at range. its also interesting to note that only the pharaoh can pick up relics for the egyptians, and the vizier cannot

Greek Heroes: each of the Greek major gods gets a different set of heroes, all of whom are taken directly from mythology: Zeus gets Jason, Odysseus, Leonidas, Bellerophon, and Heracles; Poseidon gets Theseus, Hippolyta, Atalanta, Philoctetes, and Polyphemus; and Hades gets Ajax, Orpheus, Chiron, Perseus, and Achilles. these heroes are functionally similar to mortal soldiers depending on what their weapon is, but most or all of them also have special abilities. for instance, Odysseus switches between bow and sword depending on how far away an enemy is, Perseus uses the head of Medusa to turn myth units to stone, and Bellerophon rides on the back of Pegasus to traverse all terrain with ease

Priest/Priestess (Mesopotamian, Chivalric): the Mesopotamians get one mass-production hero, the Priest. they variably get either Priests or Priestesses(programming would make one of the two appear randomly, though they are both the same unit). they use magic at range and may also attempt to convert enemy units to your side. i havent come up with much else for them. as i said before, the priest and priestess are in reference to Shamhat from the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is one of my favorite mythical tales

Jarls (Norse, Chivalric): the norse also get a single mass-production hero unit, the Jarl. jarls are permanently mounted nobility that have greater than normal bonuses versus myth units. they are pretty much identical to the Hersirs from AOM(there were both Hersirs AND Jarls in AOM, but jarls were a mortal unit while hersirs were heroes, which didnt make much sense as jarls outranked hersirs in history)

Jaguar Warrior/Ocelotl (Aztec, Chivalric): the jaguar warrior is a pretty basic chivalric hero except for the fact that he has teh special ability of Drain, which steals health from enemies while he fights. this is in reference to the stereotype (and possible fact) that aztec warriors cut out and ate the heart of their captured enemies in order to gain their strength

Chieftain & Shaman (Cro-Magnon, Sovereign): i came up with the idea for this long before i started work on a 0ad version of this idea. back then, it was going on an AOM format instead. this is actually based on teh first scenario in the Greek campaign of Empire Earth, in which the tribal chieftain Hierakles and teh shaman Kalkas must both survive. this faction is unique because the Cro-Magnons get TWO sovereign hero units and no mass-production hero. the chieftain is a powerful warrior who should be taken to the frontlines with your soldiers, but teh shaman is comparatively weak, effective against only myth units, but also capable of healing allies. additionally, if you worship Kronos, the Shaman gets the ability to emulate a mighty lion spirit and shapeshift into a cave lion to fight. (its Kronos' bonus)

Samurai (Japanese, Chivalric): i had originally planned to make the japanese a heroic culture because of their many well-known historical figures from the sengoku period, but the redating of all the factions ruled out any and all sengoku period heroes and even my personal favorite semi-legendary warrior monk, benkei, as hero units. so, i instead re-evaluated and made samurai and ninja(formerly super-units) into their new heroes. samurai are very powerful warriors with bonuses against all units that can switch between different weapons for different enemies (ex: against archers, he'll drop his katana and instead take out his yumi, the japanese longbow)

Ninja/Shinobi (Japanese, Chivalric): im kind of cheating here, because ninja as we know them came to prominence in the edo period, not between the Yamato and Nara periods. ninja are stealthy reconnaissance units with versatile attacks much like teh samurai, but i havent come up with much else for them.

Crusader (Christian, Chivalric): a permanently mounted warrior of God that has the special ability to attempt to convert enemy units to your side. i may decide to make lucifer's bonus so that he has a different hero unit just for logic; why would a crusader side with satan?

Roman Heroes: im planning for this to be all historical entities, generals and rulers and such, from the pre-determined timeline that arent already present as major or minor gods, so that means no caesar, augustus, aeneas, or romulus as heroes for teh romans, but all other roman figures are fair game

Druzina (Slavic, Chivalric): a mass-production hero. i forget exactly what the role of the druzina was in history, but i think they were something along the lines of vassals to slavic/russian princes and other royalty. i decided on this guy a long time ago

now for the ones i havent decided on yet:

Chinese:: i havent yet decided what the Chinese hero(es) will be, but possibilities include a chivalric culture with certain imperial entities as heroes, or a Heroic culture with folkloric chinese figures as heroes, such as the Eight Immortals (minus Zhongli Quan, who is a minor god) and possibly Hua Mulan (on whom the disney film Mulan was based)

Hindus:: as i said before, ill be looking into this

Hittites:: the hittites will hopefully be another Heroic faction. i was planning to give them legendary trojan heroes like the aforementioned Hector and possibly Priam or Paris

Persians:: as i said before, the current idea is to make them a Chivalric culture with the Satrap as their hero unit, but this is now under reconsideration. if i decide otherwise, theyll be based on historical personages instead, such as Darius III and Xerxes

Semites:: i want to make the semites a heroic faction if i can, with heroes such as David and Hannibal. i have not yet figured out what i could do for teh canaanite subfaction, but Goliath is a definite possibility.

Polynesians:: no ideas whatsoever at this point. theyll probably end up a chivalric faction.

Soninke:: because the mali empire was renowned for the wealth of its rulers, and because theres alot of information relating to the mali empire's rulers, i thought that they could be a heroic cultures whose heroes, instead of being warriors, were economic rulers and gave bonuses to resource gathering and commerce instead of to the military. if its a chivalric culture, theyll just have the collective Mansa hero unit that gives economic bonuses. if its a heroic culture, theyll have different rulers and other historical and hopefully mythical/legendary figures instead which would give different economic bonuses. if i can help it, id also hope to give one or two military-related heroes to each major god for the purposes of balance.

EDIT: IDEA! maybe the hindus could have heroic hero units that are avatars of each major and minor god! basically, semi-mortal incarnations of each god that they worship, each having abilities relating to that major/minor god. for instance, the Avatar of Agni could perhaps have some kind of fire-related power, and perhaps the Avatar of Ganesha could have an Empower-type ability for technology

Edited May 2, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

well, actually, the norse here DO have ranged weapons, iirc, an archer. i based their regular units on known viking age weaponry

Ah, I see. I don't know anything about ancient Norse military topics.

thanks. ill look into those. i was starting to think that maybe a good hero would be an Avatar, a mortal(i guess)incarnation of the various hindu gods, and they could have different powers depending on which major god you chose

I'm pretty sure the only Avatars in Hindu religion are the ten Avatars of Vishnu. Most of them are clearly gods. Krishna resembles a human but is worshipped as the Supreme Being (just like Vishnu), and Rama lived a mortal life, but is now also worshipped as a god. The other gods apparently don't get any Avatars, just Vishnu. So I'd stick with mythical human heroes, such as Arjuna. Well actually, maybe Rama could be one too, I think he was a prince.

OK, I think I have a clearer idea of how the three types of faction work now. Thanks for explaining it more. The distinction between rulers and Greek- and Indian-type heroes isn't as great as it appears; those heroes all seem to have been princes, or kings, or legitimate heirs of some kingdom, or exiled lords, etc. Even the ones who were heroic because of their semi-divine ancestry were still princes, because what sort of Olympian would sleep with a Bronze-Age peasant or a slave? (And notice that when the Greeks eliminated their kings and instituted oligarchies and democracies, they stopped getting new demigods...! ) So here is how I would do it:

Cro-Magnon: Chivalric: Chief and Shaman (making them Chivalric lets you avoid any need to name their heroes). I would give shapeshifting and healing to the Shaman, and let the Chief be more of a beefy melee or javelin-thrower guy.

Mesopotamians: Chivalric makes sense the way you described it

Egyptians: Sovereign: named Pharaohs in awesome chariots with some magic or other special abilities in addition to a khopesh or spear, and a lesser official (such as Vizier) with a less awesome chariot, no magic, and no magic abilities, but good melee abilities and a bow as well.

Greeks: Assuming hoplites are a super unit, Heroic is the way to go.

Roman: Famous commanders would make good heroes, so Heroic seems a good choice, unless you want some elite soldiers such as Centurions to be a support mass-hero unit.

Chinese: They seem to have famous historical generals as well as mythical heroes, so depending on the time periods you use you could use both and make them Heroic. Otherwise, Sovereign might be a good choice. I wouldn't make them Chivalric, though -- that just seems like a waste of the mythical heroes. I mean, you have that guy who shot down the nine extra suns, Yu or something, who should be great against myth units.

Persians: Sovereign is the best choice IMO. Give them named emperors, and Satraps or Immortals as mass support heroes.

Indians: Heroic. The Mahabharata and Ramayana should provide lots of heroes, but I think there are other epics as well with yet more heroes in them.

Celtic: Sovereign: named Kings (name them after real kings, or mythical heroes) and nameless Druids

Norse: Chivalric makes sense

Medieval Christians: Chivalric

Polynesians: I do not know anything about Maori or Hawaiian military tactics, but I know that the Maori at least have named heroes in their oral history who were presumably historical people, and the Hawaiians probably do as well. Heroic or Sovereign may be the way to go here.

Aztec: Chivalric, but with Eagle Warriors as well. The Jaguar Warriors shouldn't eat their opponents until after they defeat one (AFAIK Aztec warriors did eat the hearts of at least some captives, but it tended to kill the victim! ) Shamans who can shapeshift into jaguars would be awesome too, but only as a myth unit.

Japanese, Slavic, Hittites, Semites, and Soninke: I literally have no clue!

Edited May 2, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

I'm pretty sure the only Avatars in Hindu religion are the ten Avatars of Vishnu. Most of them are clearly gods. Krishna resembles a human but is worshipped as the Supreme Being (just like Vishnu), and Rama lived a mortal life, but is now also worshipped as a god. The other gods apparently don't get any Avatars, just Vishnu. So I'd stick with mythical human heroes, such as Arjuna. Well actually, maybe Rama could be one too, I think he was a prince.

ill look into making them a heroic culture, then. ill almost certainly include some of the other avatars of vishnu as heroes

OK, I think I have a clearer idea of how the three types of faction work now. Thanks for explaining it more. The distinction between rulers and Greek- and Indian-type heroes isn't as great as it appears; those heroes all seem to have been princes, or kings, or legitimate heirs of some kingdom, or exiled lords, etc. Even the ones who were heroic because of their semi-divine ancestry were still princes, because what sort of Olympian would sleep with a Bronze-Age peasant? (And notice that when the Greeks eliminated their kings and instituted oligarchies and democracies, they stopped getting new demigods...! )

the hero units of heroic cultures dont necessarily need to be of divine origin or even mythological, they just need to be named and have a good amount of information to their names.

So here is how I would do it:

Cro-Magnon: Chivalric: Chief and Shaman (making them Chivalric lets you avoid any need to name their heroes). I would give shapeshifting and healing to the Shaman, and let the Chief be more of a beefy melee or javelin-thrower guy.

Mesopotamians: Chivalric makes sense the way you described it

Egyptians: Sovereign: named Pharaohs in awesome chariots with some magic or other special abilities in addition to a khopesh or spear, and a lesser official (such as Vizier) with a less awesome chariot, no magic, and no magic abilities, but good melee abilities and a bow as well.

Greeks: Assuming hoplites are a super unit, Heroic is the way to go.

Roman: Famous commanders would make good heroes, so Heroic seems a good choice, unless you want some elite soldiers such as Centurions to be a support mass-hero unit.

Chinese: They seem to have famous historical generals as well as mythical heroes, so depending on the time periods you use you could use both and make them Heroic. Otherwise, Sovereign might be a good choice. I wouldn't make them Chivalric, though -- that just seems like a waste of the mythical heroes. I mean, you have that guy who shot down the nine extra suns, Yu or something, who should be great against myth units.

Persians: Sovereign is the best choice IMO. Give them named emperors, and Satraps or Immortals as mass support heroes.

Indians: Heroic. The Mahabharata and Ramayana should provide lots of heroes, but I think there are other epics as well with yet more heroes in them.

Celtic: Sovereign: named Kings (name them after real kings, or mythical heroes) and nameless Druids

Norse: Chivalric makes sense

Medieval Christians: Chivalric

Polynesians: I do not know anything about Maori or Hawaiian military tactics, but I know that the Maori at least have named heroes in their oral history who were presumably historical people, and the Hawaiians probably do as well. Heroic or Sovereign may be the way to go here.

Aztec: Chivalric, but with Eagle Warriors as well. The Jaguar Warriors shouldn't eat their opponents until after they defeat one (Aztec warriors did eat the hearts of at least some captives, but it tended to kill the victim! )

Japanese, Slavic, Hittites, Semites, and Soninke: I literally have no clue!

i was thinking of giving the chieftain a javelin-attack, kind of in reference to 10,000bc(the film)in which the hero threw his spear, otherwise used for melee fighting, at a "god" to kill him

i was planning to give the viziers less military prowess because they arent really commanders or anything

the greeks have hoplites as their basic infantryman; im trying to differentiate it from 0ad as much as i can. but hoplites are still a major focus, theyre kind of the all-around soldiers for the greeks

eagle warriors ARE in teh game, but not as heroes. theyre a super-unit available to all of teh aztecs. i think it would be easiest to program to just have jaguar warriors drain health, it increases their chances of survival

[Aldandil]

For the love of everything holy, don't include anything based off of or inspired by or even remotely similar to 10,000 BC. The movie crew horrendously mangled history, reality, and common sense to produce that thing. It is as historically realistic and accurate as the humans and dinosaurs living together with televisions and cars made out of stone, except that it was not produced as a children's cartoon.

(No, I didn't actually watch it. I saw the trailer, in which woolly mammoths build the pyramids of Egypt in the burning hot desert and so forth (after mammoths died out and before the pyramids were built), and I ran away and deliberately forgot most of the other awful, awful things that I had seen. You should run away, too. Very, very far away.)

Actually, a well-written, merciless, and well-informed satiric review might be funny to read. But that isn't the point.

There are real, historical stone age weapons (like real javelins and spearthrowers) to use for Cro-Magnons.

I mean, you are going to mix different time periods, including mammoths and Dynastic Egypt, but the mod should at least be inspired by something serious and decently made. And hopefully you won't be claiming that your game takes place in any specific real year.

the greeks have hoplites as their basic infantryman; im trying to differentiate it from 0ad as much as i can. but hoplites are still a major focus, theyre kind of the all-around soldiers for the greeks

But wait, aren't you planning this as a mod for 0A.D.?

Edited May 3, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

well, yeah, but that doesnt mean the factions previously existing in 0ad have to be exactly the same in this one. it would be best to try to differentiate the factions from the original as much as possible

as for 10,000bc, i liked it. not as bad as people say in my opinion. but lets not discuss that, i can tell the conversation would turn very nasty very quickly

and yes, most or all of the cro-magnon units will be based on real artifacts from that time.

[Ykkrosh]

i was thinking of giving the chieftain a javelin-attack, kind of in reference to 10,000bc(the film)in which the hero threw his spear, otherwise used for melee fighting, at a "god" to kill him

That sounds exactly like a scene in that other shining paragon of historical accuracy, 300 . Those kinds of unexpected one-off attack are good for exciting emotional moments in films where the hero does something magnificent, but I'm not sure how well it would translate into an RTS game where units are anonymous and 20 pixels tall and have infinitely replenishing projectiles to throw.

[oshron]

with the idea of the chieftain(and some other units), a "javelin-attack" is a one-shot attack at range for large damage if it hits and not a constant as with regular javelinist units. the thracian warrior unit available to teh hittite faction also has a javelin attack

[Aldandil]

On a battlefield with multiple opponents, sensible folks would not throw their javelin unless they have at least one backup weapon, preferrably a whole quiver of javelins or a solid melee weapon. It's one thing to throw it when you're hunting with a group and have separated a single animal off from the herd, but in a battle it seems a poor tactic.

I was thinking that the chieftains would have several javelins (or infinite javelins, like Ykkrosh pointed out) and a spear-thrower.

BTW, if the dancing isn't an editor-only eye candy unit in 0A.D., you should definitely add one to your mod.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

lol

they WOULD have infinite javelins, but they just dont use it as a primary means of attack. with units that have "Javelin-Attack" as their special ability, they only occasionally throw a javelin and are otherwise strictly melee soldiers. these javelins have a pretty good chance of hitting, but they wont always. they'd also just pack more of a punch than the javelins of regular units with throwing spears

[Aldandil]

OK, that makes much more sense than what I thought you meant. I was thinking of these guys throwing their only weapon and then rolling up their fists and getting killed forthwith.

[oshron]

bad news, everyone. my laptop's harddrive crashed and theres a possibility that i may lose all of the information on it. and since i never made hard copies of the RTS designs, both the one for mythology AND the modern era one, that will be the biggest loss. luckily, i DO have hard copies of all the factions, and some information for it all saved elsewhere, so it may not be as big of a loss as before

i was just letting you know in case i lose all the information i had for it. if that becomes the case, we'll have ALOT of work to do getting it all together again

[Aldandil]

OUCH.

Oshron, I am sorry to hear that. It stinks bigtime to lose something that you have worked very hard on because of a computer malfunction. I hope you're able to recover your data -- there may be companies that will attempt a data recovery of your computer although I don't know of any.

After some close calls I invested in backup flash/thumb disks for all the data on my harddrive. I know that flash isn't as stable or long-lasting as burnt non-rewritable CDs, but it seems more affordable: my 1GB flash disk was about 6 U.S. $ and I got my 2GB disk on sale for less. Flash disk prices have gone down a lot in recent years, so if you are strapped for cash and can't afford to burn a new backup CD every year or so, or can't afford the burner, backing things up on flash might be the way to go to avoid this in the future.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Aldandil

[Arthur_D]

Professional recoveries often cost A LOT of money.

I advice you to use a Linux live-CD and try to mount the partition as read-only. It might save your skin, or it might not. But it's worth the try.

[Ykkrosh]

I know that flash isn't as stable or long-lasting as burnt non-rewritable CDs, but it seems more affordable: my 1GB flash disk was about 6 U.S. $ and I got my 2GB disk on sale for less. Flash disk prices have gone down a lot in recent years, so if you are strapped for cash and can't afford to burn a new backup CD every year or so, or can't afford the burner, backing things up on flash might be the way to go to avoid this in the future.

Is the output of years of your work worth so little that you can't spend more than a few dollars on a decent backup solution for it? Hard disks will die, and if there's anything important and irreplaceable then it pays in the long term to prepare for that.

(My current approach is a 1TB external hard disk (which is now ~$80) so I can just copy my entire computer onto it without having to worry about space, and if my main disk dies then I can copy everything straight back and carry on as if nothing happened. And I hope it's unlikely that the backup disk will die at the same time...)

[Mythos_Ruler]

And I hope it's unlikely that the backup disk will die at the same time...)

EMP.

[Ykkrosh]

Well, if someone nukes a city near me then I'll probably no longer care so much about data files for computer games . But I occasionally copy really important things to servers in other countries, so I'd still have my Fallout 3 saved games.

[oshron]

im already planning to call dell, which provided my computer and has helped me with viruses and other malfunctions in the past, today if i can. whats actually quite fortunate is that teh RTS plans are the only thing ill really be losing if i cant recover the data. there were also many work-in-progress books i was writing on my laptop that are much, MUCH more important to me than the RTS designs and, thankfully, i made hardcopies of them recently, and writer's block has prevented me from writing much more in them, so thats not too bad of a loss

now that i think about it, the biggest loss ill be experiencing is the loss of the major and minor gods for most of the factions. but i think alot of those were reposted here, so i may yet be able to recover those if i lose my data

[Aldandil]

Is the output of years of your work worth so little that you can't spend more than a few dollars on a decent backup solution for it?

In the midst of a horrendous global recession, it's amazing how many people still assume that everybody has a job and an income and no debt and lives under their own roof by their own money. This also came up when I mentioned that I can't afford a new graphics card... people didn't seem to believe me. *shrug* Edited May 30, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

oh, i HAVE backup methods; in fact, i have all of my work-in-progress books backed up(with hardcopies) and my gigantic library of pictures and music on seperate flash drives. i just never backed up the RTS stuff

[oshron]

ive decided to start work recreating/recopying old information from this thread into a new folder for the game (ive officially decided that the title will be Godstorm). im gonna try to make it as much like the old version as possible, but if anyone has any suggestions as to how it could be made even better, please say so

[oshron]

update time. ive worked out a new table for each civilization that im listing down the civilization traits, units, and buildings of each civilization on directly based on the formats in the design document. so far, ive only done some work on the aztecs. since the aztecs will largely lack in the departments of cavalry, navy, and siege, they get every type of infantryman and they are stronger than those of other civilizations to compensate, utilizing razor-sharp and barbed obsidian weaponry

Macuahuitl (Infantry Swordsman)

a sort-of low-ranking noble equipped with a macuahuitl (aka macana), the Aztec's answer to the sword. im thinking that, because of the reported capability of the macuahuitl to behead a horse, theyll have a special bonus vs. cavalry units

Tepoztopilli (Infantry Spearman)

a commoner armed with a wooden spear that ends in an obsidian tip. im thinking that this guy will be the Aztec counter to infantry.

Atlatl (Infantry Javelinist)

this is probably the most famous Aztec weapon next to the macuahuitl. the Aztec javelin-thrower doesnt really use his hands to loose his darts; instead, he uses the special atlatl weapon, a javelin-thrower, to send his tlacochtli (throwing-darts or throwing-spears) a much greater distance than he would ever be able to with his hands. as such, im thinking that he could have a special trait allowing him to attack enemies from twice as far away as other javelinists.

Yaomitl (Infantry Archer)

there are several types of Aztec bow and arrow weapons, but i decided on the yaomitl because they are specifically designed for combat. they are barbed, obsidian arrows that the Aztec warrior fires with his tlahuitolli (bow)

Tematlatl (Infantry Slinger)

this one i have the least information on thus far. 'tematlatl' is the Nahuatl word for "sling", specifically referring to one made from the fibers of teh maguey plant. inciddentally, i decided on of the earlier Aztec minor gods would be Mayahuel, the goddess of the maguey plant, for the sole purpose of benefiting Aztec slingers.

im thinking that their "default" units will be the Tepoztopilli and the Tematlatl; because they dont have cavalry, they wont be getting one at the beginning of the game to train from their civic centers, so perhaps this could be compensated by, like in AOK, giving them a Cuauhtli (Eagle Warrior) at the beginning instead of a cavalry unit, which, for the mythology mod, will be serving as the demigod unit available to all aztec players

EDIT: i came up with an idea for an aztec siege weapon:

Colotl (Ballista)

this is actually quite a stretch, because i dont think the aztecs really had any siege weapons. this is more for balance than anything. "colotl" is nahuatl for "scorpion", and i imagine that this would just be a basic roman-style scorpion(teh siege weapon, not the animal). this could maybe go on the atlantis myth that the atlanteans had part of their empire in the americas, so this could be seen as a weapon adapted from an old atlantean design or maybe even captured weaponry (remember, this IS a mythology-based game). it was also the only applicable nahuatl word that i found that could be related to a siege weapon.

EDIT: did some more research, and now the aztecs have two more units:

Itzcuintli (Cavalry Swordsman)

actually, this isnt a cavalier at all; its a hunting dog. while looking into wolfdogs for the cro-magnon faction, i learned that wolves were domesticated in america as well as in eurasia and saw an opportunity for the one and only aztec cavalry unit. at the momet, im planning for only the aztecs and cro-magnons to have dog units; the Coun unit that the celts have in 0ad isnt present in the mythology game

speaking of the celts (and other factions as well), ive come up with some other units for them as well. but ill be getting to those in a moment.

Temazatl (Ram)

this is another stretch. since i named the aztec ballista after a scorpion (lol ) i decided to give them a ram unit as well that was named after a mountain goat. same basic story as with the aforementioned aztec scorpion

oh! and i forgot their only warship earlier:

Acalli (Light Warship/Bireme)

this is partly fictionalized war canoe. i say fictionalized because the canoe is scaled up to be on-par with other warships, and in that way only is it unrealistic. its just a scaled-up version of a typical aztec canoe with half the people on it rowing and the other half firing arrows, not to mention whatever other soldiers are garrisoned on it. these would best be used en masse and are faster than other ships, so theyre kind of like skirmishing ships, i guess

and heres some units from other civilizations that ive come up with:

the Egyptians will definitively be having a spearman, a javelinist (one of the weapons used by the new kingdom was the "throw-stick", but i havent found out anything else about it yet), an archer (armed with the hyksos-derived composite bow), and a slinger. they also get a cavalry javelinist and archer, both of whom use chariots. their civic center units will be the spearman, composite bow, and chariot archer; the mainstay soldiers of the new kingdom egyptians used weapons that were derived from the hyksos that previously ruled over them. the new kingdom egyptians actually lacked in the departments of siege and ships, so they get only one of each: a siege tower and a river barge (the egyptian "navy" was largely river oriented, and most of their boats were transports, not warships), not counting their merchant ship. i also recently learned that war elephants were actually not utilized by the new kingdom egyptians, so they wont be getting that as a demigod. but i DID get their all-egyptian demigod: the Mi-neb, or Egyptian Axeman, partly based on their counter-infantry unit from AOM. apparently, the egyptians used axes to chop down the doors of temples and fortresses they were attacking because they didnt use much siege outside of ladders and the occasionally siege tower. so i actually decided to make the Mi-neb have a special bonus versus buildings not only to make him unique but also to help compensate for their lack of siege weapons.

the Celts thus far have the Gaesata spearman, Iaosae slinger, and Carbanto javelin chariot. these units are all borrowed from the celtic units of 0ad. my idea here is that they will be the civic center units and therefore actually represent the celtic tribes themselves from before a proper unification while the other units that they can later build at the barracks and so on represent the more "civilized" or advanced soldiers that are more closely associated with arthurian myth: the swordsman, the archer, and the sword cavalry that serves as a sort-of primitive knight. they still have only two demigods to their name: Toutatis' Lambton Knight and Beira's Painted Warrior (trying to find better names for them). their ships and siege are still up in the air.

the Mesopotamians have less definitive information to them. theyll be getting a swordsman (sickle-swordsman, to be precise), an archer, a javelinist, and a slinger. they also get at least one cavalry unit, another javelin chariot distinctly drawn by wild donkeys rather than horses. like the celts, their ships and siege have yet to be decided upon.

i have pretty much nothing on the greeks thus far, but theyll be having more generic versions of their units from 0ad, like instead of "Thracian Peltast", its just "Peltast", and "Toxotes" instead of "Cretan Toxotes". but theyre otherwise all teh same. why mess with a good idea?

theres more information on the Norse. their infantry are the Drengr, a technical swordsman that will variably use either a viking sword or a viking axe (though both are functionally the same), the Krokspjot spearman, and the Bueskytter archer. they have only one cavalry soldier, the Riddari, a swordsman who, like the Drengr, uses either a sword or axe. they get only one siege weapon, the Armbrost ballista (armbrost actually means crossbow). the vikings actually used all three of the siege weapons that are implemented in 0ad, but i could only translate a name for the ballista unit. the vikings have access to every type of ship: the Knarr merchant ship, the Snekkje light warship/bireme, the Skei medium/trireme, and the Drekar heavy/quinquereme. ive also got legit norse/norwegian names for all of their unique units thus far and have come up with some other details for them: the Berserker is now the Berserkr () and still rampages every once in a while; the Throwing-axeman is now the Kaster-askemann (literally 'throwing axe man') and has splash damage with his axes(functionally, he's a javelinist even though he uses axes) and is still only available to Odin; finally, Loki's Hersirs use either a viking sword, axe, OR spear (just for variety) and excels at fighting infantry. im still missing a demigod for thor. any ideas?

the Chinese still have the Chu-ke Nu and Dragon Rocket that i brought up before, and nothing more has been though up for that faction

im thinking ill give all the cro-magnons the Firestarter super unit, basically a cro-magnon raider armed with a torch, he throws it one at a time at range and then runs in to spread the fire by hand, he would be siege infantry, i guess. depending on how many other factions get war elephants, the cro-magnons may or may not get their own war elephants, which would probably be the aforementioned Anancus or otherwise some kind of mastodon. other than that, they get a spearman, a javelinist, a slinger, and the aforementioned wolfdog as cavalry. ill take your suggestion, aldandil, and just make the cro-magnon language english for simplicity's sake. theyll get only one true siege weapon, a battering ram, and a light warship comparable to the aztec war canoe.

the Japanese will be getting a spearman, the Takeyari, an archer, the Ite, the Kidousei cavalry swordsman, and the Gunba Ite cavalry archer as basic units. i havent yet decided on their ships and siege. i also decided that Izanagi's unique unit will be the Yamabushi, a mountain hermit that supposedly has supernatural powers. Amaterasu is still missing a unique unit. i also decided to extended the Japanese timeline from the start of the yamato period to the end of the heian period, which covers all of classical japan and stops just short of their feudal era.

thats all so far. none of the other civilizations have really been covered thus far. i DID, however, also change a few names: the Iron Age Hindus are now the Vedic Hindus, the Christians are now the Medieval Christians, the Soninke Muslims have become the more appropriately named Mandinka Muslims (in direct reference to the Mali Empire), and the Slavic Peoples have become the Migratory Slavs, directly based on teh slavic peoples from the migration period of europe. im also on the lookout for a slightly longer name for the polynesians and possibly for the cro-magnons, since ive taken to renaming teh factions with longer novelty names ive also got ideas for two other civilizations for an even 20: Shamanic Koreans (with their religion being native korean shamanism) and some form of Minoans, which would reimplement old ideas of legit cretan religion and mix it in with greek aquatic deities in reference to atlantis and some iberian influences in reference to the strong association with bulls that both the minoans and the iberians had. the minoans would be pretty much the only predominantly fictional civilization in the game, aside from possibly the cro-magnons.

Edited June 5, 2010 by oshron

[SMST]

oshron, would you mind, if I "borrow" some Atzec units for my own modding concept? (which is something rather EE-like) They seem to be pretty nice in both name and function, and I can personally not find much about the Aztec army. Your name would be credited.

Now that you are working this out so precisely, are you actually going to do that mod rather then just planning it "for fun"?

[oshron]

well its entirely possible that i could make the mod itself; my ultimate goal originally was to make the designs for the fun of it and then propose that wildfire games itself pick up the designs once parts 1 and 2 of 0ad are completed, by which time presumably all the designs for Godstorm would be completed. but now making the mod itself doesnt sound too far out there. the main thing that would stop me from working on it myself would be a lack of focus (i tend to work on something furiously for a month and then forget about it for a while and then start again) and a lack of modding expertise and modding tools. thats whats prevented me from making mods for other games in the past, whether it be AOM or AOK or the comparatively easy to mod Jurassic Park Operation Genesis. but since 0ad is gonna be so mod-friendly, that may not be the case this time around.

and yes, you can use some of the aztec units. all of the ones i have down thus far are all true historical units, though their hunting dog, ballista, and ram are kind of stretching it.