post-0 AD idea: mythology

[Aldandil]

I know, I'm just making suggestions. I think that, depending on how many myth units each civilization can have, there will be an opportunity to be picky about how accurate things are.

Apep-spawn sounds good. Giant water-serpents with sinister names sometimes served the gods.

If the Egyptians were going to have anybody that really resembled a god, I'd prefer to replace Inpu-men with something else like Lioness-headed women, Hawk-headed men, Ram-headed men, or Snake-headed men and women. They seem more like the sorts of minor deities that come in large numbers, and which a Pharaoh could claim to have control over. You can name them Khaty, or Khatyt for the females. Or give them longer names that reflect the animal type, um... Khatyt-hefaut (snake-woman), Khatyt-pakhet or Khatyt-rut or Khatyt-mahesat (lioness-woman), Khaty-hay (hawk-man), Khaty-ba (ram-man), or Khaty-hefaw (snake-man).

Here is an idea for a stationary object, like a building, for the Hellenes:

Dendros Lotos (the lotus-tree of the Lotus-eaters)

The Dendros Lotos is planted and grows on its own into a tree. Any units that get close to it have a chance of being entranced, especially weak and low-will units. In this way it is similar to the Seirenes, however it is an object instead of a unit. Also, instead of killing units, it just turns them into useless pot-heads who refuse to leave the tree or fight (except in self-defense). This also affects Hellene units, so it is used by running/flying in and planting the seed deep in enemy territory. Whoever owns (or conquers) the territory needs to destroy the tree to free up their units that it entranced.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

theres going to be at least one myth unit for each minor god in a faction, so that means that, at the very least, fifteen myth units to a culture. this is only the bare minimum, though, and many minor gods will have two myth units, oftentimes a naval myth unit in addition to a walking or flying one, and some others have two walking myth units, but no minor god has ONLY a naval myth unit, because not all maps will have water where naval myth units could be of use

[Aldandil]

Naval units... I can probably post a list of possibilities for those, too.

Here are some more ideas:

Hellenes

**Huge hairy naked ogress: This comes from a vase-painting. Whatever folk-tale was told about her or them is forgotten.

Hellenes or Christians (whoever needs more myth units)

**Kallikantzaros: A sort of undead-like goblin of modern Greek folklore.

Egyptians

**Akh: The angry blessed dead? Mummies? Basically, my idea was to have vengeful spirits of the dead. They would definitely be corporeal, not ghosts but with their bodies intact. Maybe wrapped up as mummies, maybe not. The bodies of dead mortal Egyptian units must be rescued intact and brought to an embalming tent (a specific building) to turn them into Akhu. Later, you can upgrade them with the ability to transform into Bau and Kau.

**Animated Statue: Stone, the size of those huge Rameses statues. The Greeks probably have enough myths available, so you could give this to the Egyptians.

**Djehuty's Baboon: If intelligent, talking, literate monkeys are good for anything in battle, Djehuty can provide them.

**Setja/Serpopard: Probably bites like a leopard at a long range, or maybe venomous.

**Trained Hyena: The Egyptians kept Hyenas as livestock and ate them as delicacies. They never succeeded in domesticating them, but what if they had? This could be the lowest level myth unit or even a non-myth unit. It requires no resources as long as there is carrion to eat, and it is itself an edible resource for emergencies!

Norse

**Valkyries: These units are responsible for collecting the souls of mortal Norse units at their moment of death, and bringing them to some special building to train them as Einherjar. Unlike Akhu, the Einherjar do not need to keep their bodies.

Romans

**Lasa, Lar, Manis (the singular form of Manes?)

If it is possible to give the Romans three different ways to bring their dead mortal units back as mythics, all three of these could be used. Lasas are generally only female, though.

Indians

**Speaking of monkeys, how about Vanaras, Hanuman's monkey troops?

Edited January 29, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

i just finished up with the starting and ending dates for each of the factions

AZTECS :: 1248 - 1518 AD

CELTS :: c330 BC - c410 AD

CHINESE :: 221 BC - 220 AD

CHRISTIANS :: 33 - 1272 AD

CRO-MAGNONS :: 9500 - 1700 BC

EGYPTIANS :: c1570 - c1070 BC

GREEKS :: c1600 - c300 BC

HINDUS :: c2600 - c1300 BC

HITTITES :: c1800 - 700s BC

IROQUOIS :: c4000 BC - 1492 AD

JAPANESE :: c250 - 1573 AD

MAYANS :: c250 - c900 AD

MESOPOTAMIANS :: c3100 - 539 BC

NORSE :: c780 - c1100 AD

PERSIANS :: c450 BC - 644 AD

POLYNESIANS :: c6000 BC - 1778 AD

ROMANS :: 753 BC - 476 AD

SEMITES :: 3760 - c150 BC

SERBONIANS :: c9600 - c1450 BC

SLAVS :: 500s - 1387 AD

whaddaya think?

[Aldandil]

I'm still confused why you're separating the Aztecs and Maya into two separate civilizations -- how will you make them unique from each other? -- while lumping together all of Polynesia and Australia. That really makes no sense to me. I'd say just have Mesoamericans, Australians, and Maori or Hawai`ians (or maybe Polynesians in general? but don't include Micronesians, Melanesians, or Filipinos). That's three separate civilizations. That'll give the Mesoamericans enough units to work with, and won't artificially lump the Australians together with the totally different and separate Polynesians.

Do you intend the Cro-Magnons to be Paleolithic or Neolithic people? If they are Paleolithic, they can't go until 1700 BC, that's well after the Bronze Age started. They should be 30,000-11,000 BC, that keeps them well before the Neolithic. Unless you were aiming for Neolithic, then I think their time period should probably be narrowed to 9000-4000 BC, and the name would have to change to something else... call them Natufians? I'm not sure how it would work to have Neolithic people summoning prehistoric Ice Age animals, but then again, if you use Paleolithic people, you can't give them any real buildings...

The Egyptian time period looks to be basically the New Kingdom, which I agree is the best choice for them.

For lot of the others, I think most of them need much tighter focuses. The overall time period should be ambiguous, I agree with that, but each civilization should be historically consistent with itself, and that can't be done if they can't be placed within their own time frame less vague than a 3000-year span.

I'd say, narrow down the Romans to the Republic, no broader than 500-40 BC or 30 BC (that'll help keep them distinct from the 0AD Romans, who I assume will be imperial. The Greeks should be narrowed down to 1500-1200 BC, the Mycenaean period (again, this will help distinguish them from the iron age Greeks who I assume will be featured in 0AD). You can keep the Maya to the whole Classic, but it might be better to narrow them down to just the high Classic, 500-900 AD.

Likewise, many of the others should be narrowed down IMO. I don't know enough about the other civilizations to say what those ranges should be, but to give each civilization a consistent, recognizable look and self-consistent military tactics, most of them should be narrower in time period. The myth units can of course come from much broader time periods, but the historical units should not, IMO.

Unless... unless your aim is to cause the player to start at the beginning of a given time period for their culture and have to develop new technology, military formations, and units over time. Will that be possible with the 0AD game engine? I read that they have each civilization "frozen in time." If you can do that it could be very cool, and then the longer time ranges make much more sense. It would probably be even more difficult to balance, though.

I would like to see the Thai or Northwest Coast Native Americans in there, but there's already probably more civilizations than any coders will be willing or able to build. We can always dream, though.

If you want naval units I can give you the names of mythical creatures I know of that might work. Again, if there's any you don't recognize and want descriptions, let me know. I've got barely any info on them, though.

HELLENES

The Theoi website has several sea monsters, such as the Keto and Hippokampos

**Skolopendra

**Winged Hippokampos

MESOAMERICANS

**Acoatl/Water-Serpent (Aztec)

**Ahuizotl

NORSE

**Giant Octopus or Kraken: give to the Norse or the Christians

RAMATJU KUMAT (Egyptians)

Nothing I can think of, except the Spawn of Apep.

HAN (Chinese)

**Chi-Wen

**Gong-Fu

**Kui

**Pu-Lao

**Shachihoko (I don’t know the Chinese name, but I think they may have originated the myth.)

INDIANS

**Jala-Turaga: just like the Greek Hippokampos (you could give it to either civilization)

**Jalebha (fish-tailed elephant)

**Makara

**Naga (with upgrades for extra heads and/or fire-breathing)

**Timingila

MESOPOTAMIANS and PERSIANS

**Kulullu/Kuliltu (Assyrian)

**Suhurmashu

NIPPON (replace with whatever the Japanese call themselves)

The Obakemono website has several sea monsters

**Ayakashi (Japan)

**Giant Trout (Ainu)

ROMANS

The Romans had all sorts of fish-tailed beasts in their mosaics:

**Mer-Bull: I’m not sure this is different from the Greek Tauros Ophios, though.

**Mer-Gryphon (or give it to the Christians)

**Mer-Leopard: with or without wings (you already listed it as Leocampus)

**Mer-Lion (or give it to the Christians)

**Mer-Ram

CHRISTIANS

**Echeneis (Europe)

**Merman and Mermaid: give to either the Greeks or the Christians

**Ozaena (Spain)

**Sawfish/Serre/Sarce/Scie/Heraldic Flying Fish (Europe)

**Sea-Dog (heraldry) has four webbed feet, not a fishtail

**Sea Serpent (Europe)

Plus more fish-tailed critters:

**Bishop Fish/Monkfish (heraldry) the naval cleric/white mage unit!

**Fish-Knight (Aurthurian)

**Sea-Dragon (heraldic)

**Sea-Stag (heraldry)

**Sea-Unicorn: Maricorn/Alicorn (heraldry)

**Sea-Unicorn: Almaricorn (heraldry) winged Maricorn

**Sea-Wolf (heraldry)

Edited January 29, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

I'm still confused why you're separating the Aztecs and Maya into two separate civilizations -- how will you make them unique from each other? -- while lumping together all of Polynesia and Australia. That really makes no sense to me. I'd say just have Mesoamericans, Australians, and Maori or Hawai`ians (or maybe Polynesians in general? but don't include Micronesians, Melanesians, or Filipinos). That's three separate civilizations. That'll give the Mesoamericans enough units to work with, and won't artificially lump the Australians together with the totally different and separate Polynesians.

having the aztecs and mayans as seperate factions was how it was originally, and how it was portrayed in AOK and in the unreleated Empire Earth 2. not sure why i lump some together and why others are seperate; in anotehr RTS project of mine, theres two seperate factions for americans, germans, british, and russians while the balkan states are lumped together in just a Balkan faction and the spanish and portugeuese are lumped together in the Visigoth faction. in any case, oftentimes with factions that represent several different peoples, there will be one major god that is the "patron" of a particular people or region within that faction, like the Mesopotamians are divided so that Marduk represent Babylon, Ishtar goes for Sumer, and Tiamat for Assyria, which are th three best-known mesopotamian cultures. with the mesoamerican idea before, it was to be that one major god each would go for the aztecs, mayans, and inca, and the original thought with the chinese faction would be that one would go for Han Chinese, another for Qin Chinese, and i havent yet figured out what the other one is. perhaps ill extend the chinese timespan and base the third subfaction on that. if its such a problem with the polynesians, then the name will just be changed to Pacific and still represent those different cultures. a major one for that culture, though, is to represent Hawaii; the polynesian timespan is dated from the earliest possible time that polynesia was colonized to first contact with europeans, which would be right before they got modern weapons.

oh! idea! instead of Polynesian or Pacific, maybe Oceanic would be better? by that im not referring to the ocean itself but to the continent of Oceania, of which Polynesia is but a region

Do you intend the Cro-Magnons to be Paleolithic or Neolithic people? If they are Paleolithic, they can't go until 1700 BC, that's well after the Bronze Age started. They should be 30,000-11,000 BC, that keeps them well before the Neolithic. Unless you were aiming for Neolithic, then I think their time period should probably be narrowed to 9000-4000 BC, and the name would have to change to something else... call them Natufians? I'm not sure how it would work to have Neolithic people summoning prehistoric Ice Age animals, but then again, if you use Paleolithic people, you can't give them any real buildings...

the cro-magnons are gonna be a bit of a stretch historically. it was actually very hard for me to find correct dates to the beginning of the late stone age, when cro-magnons appeared, to the end of teh european copper age; the copper age implementation would allows us to not only give them a little bit more technology and buildings. but maybe thats just cuz i stupidly only used wikipedia as a source there; i have a historical atlas, i should use THAT! in any case, i was trying to date it from teh late stone age, when allot of the bits and pieces of technology that remained in the bronze age and later, like farming, domestication, pottery, and bows & arrows, all started to come into use. if i were to put it into an armory sense, the cro-magnons would start out with Stone weapons, then move on to Polished Stone, Obsidian, and finally Copper. the myth units are also a bit of a stretch, but it seemed appropriate, and even though their gods are greek in origin, i dont need to stretch out the greco-roman myth units any more than i already have

For lot of the others, I think most of them need much tighter focuses. The overall time period should be ambiguous, I agree with that, but each civilization should be historically consistent with itself, and that can't be done if they can't be placed within their own time frame less vague than a 3000-year span.

I'd say, narrow down the Romans to the Republic, no broader than 500-40 BC or 30 BC (that'll help keep them distinct from the 0AD Romans, who I assume will be imperial. The Greeks should be narrowed down to 1500-1200 BC, the Mycenaean period (again, this will help distinguish them from the iron age Greeks who I assume will be featured in 0AD). You can keep the Maya to the whole Classic, but it might be better to narrow them down to just the high Classic, 500-900 AD.

alot of those are just th greatest possible time period, and its not just random dating, they all have significance: the iroquois are dated as such because 4000bc is around when the mysterious Copper Culture in wisconsin appeared, and 1492 is the first significant contact with europeans for north america as a whole. its not really that their faction would take place in that year, but that, as their faction advances, technology they developed at that time would become available then. like with the japnese, they too would start with simpler weapons in their "yamato" stages but as the come towards the end and enter their "sengoku" stages, they would begin to have really advanced weapons like tempered steel. for that matter, the chinese are also gonna be a bit of a stretch in that i plan for them to have some gunpowder weapons even if its a bit anachronistic (remember, ensemble already did this in AOK, giving anachronistic war elephants to their persians; absolute realism shouldnt get in the way of enjoyable gameplay).

Likewise, many of the others should be narrowed down IMO. I don't know enough about the other civilizations to say what those ranges should be, but to give each civilization a consistent, recognizable look and self-consistent military tactics, most of them should be narrower in time period. The myth units can of course come from much broader time periods, but the historical units should not, IMO.

Unless... unless your aim is to cause the player to start at the beginning of a given time period for their culture and have to develop new technology, military formations, and units over time. Will that be possible with the 0AD game engine? I read that they have each civilization "frozen in time." If you can do that it could be very cool, and then the longer time ranges make much more sense. It would probably be even more difficult to balance, though.

my idea for the mythology version is to extend the game's phases from just 3 to a total of six "Eras" but they would functionally be the same, representing a phase of civilization rather than a specific time period as was the case in Ensemble games or in Empire Earth (in EE, the ages were specifically named things like World War II Age, and so on). they all start off in the Archaic Era, the dawn of that civilization, progress to teh Barbaric Era, when they begin to develop military, the Classical Era, when their religion is better-established, the Civilized Era, when they begin to create cities, Heroic Era, when they become very well known to their neighbors (case in point, the romans werent very well known until rome got really big and they began conquering places; before them, the main player was greece) and finally teh Mythical Era when that civilization has become so large, so powerful, and so well-known that their names are known throughout the rest of history and has achieved legendary status. aside from the potential of acquring a few more units in the game(not just MUs but also maybe a few more "super units" for later times depending on the major god) and the extended time period, as well as the implementation of mythology, the game would be functionally similar to 0 AD; why complicate things by making entirely new game functions aside from what is necessary for the setting?

as for balance purposes, if one civilization is more advanced than another, it will have a severe weakness, though, like in 0 AD, the romans will probably be one of the more rounded civilizations. that being teh case, their major weakness will probably be in mythology, so theyll have only one super-powered MU where others would have two or three, and they'd probably only have one destructive god power (im thinking Eruption in tribute to Pompeii) where other civilizations would, again, have two or three. im trying to make it a general rule that each civilization has at most two super-destructive godpowers that simulate natural disasters or otherwise, like the ones for the greeks are Solar Flare and Lightning Storm

I would like to see the Thai or Northwest Coast Native Americans in there, but there's already probably more civilizations than any coders will be willing or able to build. We can always dream, though.

thats why its divided into four parts with five civs each, so that only five need to be worked on at a time. tbph, i think making new civilizations like taht would probably be comparatively easy to coding 0 AD has been as a whole

[Aldandil]

The reason that I continue to be 100% against lumping together all of Australia, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia, New Guinea, and Philippines into one gigantic "civilization" is that it is so inaccurate. These are completely separate culture groups that have very little in common. They aren't similar the way that Greeks are similar to Romans, or Persians are similar to Assyrians, or Maya are similar to Aztecs. They are utterly not similar. It isn't comparable to lumping Mesoamericans or Mesopotamians or Classical folks together. If you lump them all together, it will look as though you don't actually know how to tell them apart. It's a common problem to find European cultures depicted with relative accuracy in fiction, while non-European cultures are depicted very inaccurately, and it bugs the heck out of me.

I like what you're doing overall and it looks fun, but inaccurate things bother me.

The timeline for Polynesian settlement, according to my Prehistory textbook, starts with settlement in the western islands at 1000 BC, and in the eastern islands (including Hawai`i and New Zealand) no sooner than 500 AD. If Wikipedia has listed dates earlier than that, I would not trust them at all.

If you use Australia instead, then the settlement of that continent starts at 40,000 years ago. But of course, whatever cultures existed thousands of years ago were not the same as the cultures that lived there when Europeans invaded. Although you may have seen people stating that just because Australians had stone-age technology, that they were "frozen in time" "primitives" whose society never changed for thousands of years, this is totally false. So I would not give them a 6,000-year time-span either.

For dating the Cro-Magnons, for whom I assume you're using fictionalized Eurasian cave-men, the upper Paleolithic starts about 40,000 BC. The Ice Age ended 9,600 BC. The Neolithic began almost right away, around 9,000 BC in the Fertile Crescent. The Copper Age began 6,000 BC. The Bronze Age can be considered to start about 4,000 BC or 3,500 BC.

Regarding myth units: You could give the Native Americans moose cavalry. That would be so cool! It has no basis whatsoever in any myth that I know of (does that make me a hypocrite?), but it would be fun.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

The reason that I continue to be 100% against lumping together all of Australia, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia, New Guinea, and Philippines into one gigantic "civilization" is that it is so inaccurate. These are completely separate culture groups that have very little in common. They aren't similar the way that Greeks are similar to Romans, or Persians are similar to Assyrians, or Maya are similar to Aztecs. They are utterly not similar. It isn't comparable to lumping Mesoamericans or Mesopotamians or Classical folks together. If you lump them all together, it will look as though you don't actually know how to tell them apart. It's a common problem to find European cultures depicted with relative accuracy in fiction, while non-European cultures are depicted very inaccurately, and it bugs the heck out of me.

i do see where youre coming from. the main problem is that not all the polynesian/pacific cultures have enough going for them to make a single military for them. what i had been trying to emphasize earlier was mainly that the hawaiians would be the major religious source, since theres alot of hawaiian deities, but as far as i know, theres not much military going for them, so that where the philippine weapons and whatever come in. australasia would be in there mostly for myth unit inspiration and for bestiary (teh idea is to have a few different animals and plants for each culture, so the polynesian wildlife would mostly be australian ones simply because there arent many large animals in the polynesian proper)

maybe it would be best to make it focus mostly on hawaii and continue to call them polynesians. the otehr pacific myth units would still be in there, though, because i'd have to make something completely original otherwise. besides, wouldnt you like to play as an island culture who can set beef-up komodo dragons on your enemies? or how bout divebombing them with giant eagles? those are some of the polynesian myth units i have in mind

The timeline for Polynesian settlement, according to my Prehistory textbook, starts with settlement in the western islands at 1000 BC, and in the eastern islands (including Hawai`i and New Zealand) no sooner than 500 AD. If Wikipedia has listed dates earlier than that, I would not trust them at all.

the earlier date was just from an apparently mainstream theory that lists that as the earliest POSSIBLE date for human colonization of polynesia, not necessarily teh earliest DEFINITIVE one

For dating the Cro-Magnons, for whom I assume you're using fictionalized Eurasian cave-men, the upper Paleolithic starts about 40,000 BC. The Ice Age ended 9,600 BC. The Neolithic began almost right away, around 9,000 BC in the Fertile Crescent. The Copper Age began 6,000 BC. The Bronze Age can be considered to start about 4,000 BC or 3,500 BC.

i think ill just look into my history book to get a good name. what i want to date from is teh portion of the stone age when agriculture and domestication came into use and then date forward to the copper age. another idea i had for the cro-magnons was that they cant research armor technologies and begin the game with very little, but gradually increase as they advance and their models acquire more animal skins, hides, and furs as they advance, and that adds to their armor

[oshron]

okay, ive redated a few parts o the timelines and have decided on a few other things:

CELTS: the timeline itself is not changed, but ive decided to replace one of their major gods, Balor, with a scottish god. however, my research has turned up nothing. anyone know who was one of the more important scottish gods?

CHINESE: the timeline, again, is not changed, but i figured out what the last major god will focus on. the "neutral" major god will focus on either Daoism or Confucianism (with the "good" god focusing on Han china and the "bad" god focusing on Qin china)

CRO-MAGNONS: the dates are adjusted to range from 10000 BC to 5000 BC. their last armory advancements are still copper weapons. also, since the cro-magnons are going to seriously lack in the departments of siege and navy, theyll have more powerful myth units earlier and two-thirds of their minor gods will give out naval myth units(so that the player always has the option of getting a naval myth unit for that advancement)

POLYNESIANS: teh dates are adjusted to range from 300 AD to 1778, which are the dates of hawaii's colonization and their first contact with europeans, respectively. like the cro-magnons, they will lack severely in a few departments, but will have more ships than the cro-magnons. as before, their invented myth units will derive from all over the pacific and not just polynesia, so there will be some australian cryptids and fossil creatures in there as well

SEMITES: the beginning of the semitic time period has been readjusted to 2348 BC, which is the approximate date for the flood in the bible. the ending date still goes to the fall of carthage.

i also came up with an option for single-player mode: Turn Off Myth Units, in which you have the option of playing the game without mythological units to help you, but you can still research mythical technologies to help your civilization

[Aldandil]

i do see where youre coming from. the main problem is that not all the polynesian/pacific cultures have enough going for them to make a single military for them. what i had been trying to emphasize earlier was mainly that the hawaiians would be the major religious source, since theres alot of hawaiian deities, but as far as i know, theres not much military going for them, so that where the philippine weapons and whatever come in. australasia would be in there mostly for myth unit inspiration and for bestiary (teh idea is to have a few different animals and plants for each culture, so the polynesian wildlife would mostly be australian ones simply because there arent many large animals in the polynesian proper)

If you really are using nothing but Wikipedia for research (did you say that?) then you'll be hampered in finding accurate details about everything. Do you have any access to a library? I know it is more work, but it'll help a lot. You local library system might even have access to university libraries through an interlibrary loan program.

The Hawai`ans and Maori had significant militaries, even if they didn't have advanced technology, although not being a military expert nor familiar with RTS games, I can't evaluate how suitable those militaries would be. But between them I can come up with a number of myth units -- more if you include real extinct animals like moa, moa-nalo, and giant eagles (or myth-ified giant eagles that are large enough to pick up and carry a human being -- real giant eagles probably could not!). From what I have collected over the years I found Patupaiarehe, Pouakai/Hokioi/Giant Eagle, Halulu, Manaia/Bird-Man, Large Moa, Small Moa, Moa-Nalo, Wereshark, Werepig, Rongo-tumu-here, and several types of Taniwha. There are probably more. Hawai`ans and Maori are both eastern Polynesian cultures, they have a lot in common in their society, religion, and myths, and you can draw from other east Polynesian cultures if needed. Drawing from all of Polynesia, especially for your myth units, may be necessary, but as long as you don't mind stone age technology (which you don't seem to) it's probably possible to stick to just Polynesia or just east Polynesia for the mortal units. From the rest of Polynesia I found references to Haele Feke, Maero, and Vatea. There are also Tapairu, Putoperereko, and Turehu, which might all be the same as Patupaiarehe.

Another option is to switch entirely to the Philippines, which probably have enough of both mortal military units and myth units to work out. I don't know anything about the military capabilities of Australians, Melanesians, Micronesians, and New Guineans.

the earlier date was just from an apparently mainstream theory that lists that as the earliest POSSIBLE date for human colonization of polynesia, not necessarily teh earliest DEFINITIVE one

I see. It's just that that looks quite unreliable as a possible date. Without any solid archaeology to back up the existence of Polynesians that early, you can't get any mortal or myth units or technology out of those early dates anyway, so it won't help you.

i think ill just look into my history book to get a good name. what i want to date from is teh portion of the stone age when agriculture and domestication came into use and then date forward to the copper age.

In that case 10,000-5,000 BC looks like a good pick. That includes the tail end of the Paleolithic and the start of the Copper Age, while focusing on the Neolithic. It'll also make it easier to justify Ice Age animals as myth units, since the Ice Age will have just ended around 10,000 BC and you can reasonably suppose they had myths about those animals. I am a little concerned how such animals will measure up to fire-breathing and magic-slinging myth units of other groups, but you can just make them super-beefy or something. Or give them super-devastating mages and shapeshifting Werelion and Werestag shamans. Heck, give them unicorns too, since nobody has convincingly come up with a real animal to explain that one cave painting at Lascaux, and the picture is just called "the Unicorn." It's stretching it to give them Paleolithic stuff like that, but basically they'll be a heavily fictional interpretation of a little-known culture anyway. I mean, nobody knows what myths any Neolithic people had, so you have to make it up anyway.

If you don't like giving unicorns to two different cultures, you can rename it Licorne (unicorn in French) and just make up special abilities for it that make it significantly different from Unicorns. (Besides, it has two horns, not one. Here's an image ref: http://www.heinle.com/french_d/templates/r...aux_licorne.jpg )

I suggested the Natufian name because that is the name given by archaeologists to an early Neolithic culture in the Fertile Crescent area. There's probably other names, given to other Neolithic cultures, you could use instead.

The other date changes I can't comment on, since I don't know much about those cultures at all.

I also have another few myth unit ideas for the Egyptians:

Uraei can acquire human arms (or a pair of wings?) as upgrades

Androsphinxes can acquire wings as an upgrade

Crocodile-Ram: A ram or bull with the head of a crocodile and the sideways, wavy horns of the Khnum-ram. I don't know what they are called, but you can call them Ba-Khenty, Ba-Sobek, Ba-Depy, Ba-Ad, Ba-Meseh, or Ba-Kapu. I like the name Ba-Khenty best.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

i mainly use wikipedia to get the initial ideas and pantheon setups for each faction; its basically just scratching-the-surface research, which would be backed-up by legit written research later on.

btw, i redid a few of the factions the other day while waiting for replies: i finished the new aztec and mayan pantheons (had to go for a bit of a stretch on just one god for the mayans, but it does have legit grounding), i redid a bit of the chinese pantheon (confucius is now the neutral "god" of that faction), the polynesian faction has been completely redone with only hawaiian gods, though i plan to/may do some additional research into their counterparts from other pacific cultures if i absolutely have to, teh serbonian pantheon has been almost completely redone with additional greek/minoan deities (a legit minoan goddess is the new neutral god, Atlas has replaced Ophion as the "evil" god, and Thalassa has replaced Amphitrite as the "good" god). the new serbonian pantheon also goes on the largely indefinite minoan pantheon by having mostly goddesses as both major AND minor gods. im also thinking that, since the minotaur is not a minoan creation and is already taken by the greek culture, there can be compensation with the serbonians by putting bull imagery in alot of their units, like the bows of their ships would be adorned with bull-horn-like ornaments, and there will certainly be a good number of bull-like myth units for them.

ive also got the Focus, Bonus, and God Powers for all three of the greek major gods, though nearly all of it is borrowed from AOM:

Hades' ranged soldiers fire their weapons faster (ie, in the time it takes for one of Zeus' archers to fire one arrows, an archer of Hades fires two, something like that) and buildings have more health and more resistance to attacks. his bonus means that there is a 15% chance that his fallen soldiers will return from the dead to fight again as Shades, and these shades grow more powerful as you progress through the game. finally, Hades' godpower is Sentinel, taken directly from AOM, makes Hades send four living statues to defend one of your civic centers from attack

Poseidon's cavalry have more health, and his ships not only move faster, boosted by Poseidon's salty winds, but they also have more resistance to attack from naval myth units and are more resistant to the effects of enemy godpowers, but they can still be destroyed by these

Zeus' melee infantry have more health and do more damage to buildings. thats all there is for his focus, but he makes up for it with his bonus and godpower: the followers of Zeus can get more favor faster, and have a higher maximum limit of favor (where other major gods give only up to 100 favor, Zeus gives 200). finally, Zeus' godpower is absolutely deadly: he sends down one of his lightning bolts to immediately blow a single enemy unit off teh face of the earth, though it doesnt affect all units. these unaffected units would be special heroes that would appear only in campaigns.

im also recopying my old document on the pantheons into a new document with a new format

as for cro-magnon myth units, its not just gonna be ice age animals like mammoths and terror birds that will be included, but also some ferocious dinosaurs and fitting cryptid animals. for those who dont know, a cryptid is a reported animal whose existence has not yet been proven or disproven, like bigfoot. these cryptids will be included as myth units for alot of cultures, like the megalania (that komodo dragon on steroids i mentioned earlier) is occasionally sighted, though these have not been cofirmed. in reference to this as well as to give the polynesians a good early myth unit, the polynesians will get the Ripper Dragon myth unit, or Varanus priscus. alot of the other myth units will also be based on both existing and fossil animals, like the thunderbird myth unit for the iroquois will be based on Argentavis, the largest flying bird ever, and various. alot of cryptids out there have been identified as dinosaurs, so these would be ones to apply to teh cro-magnons if they are either not needed for another culture or if the cro-magnons need another unit. alot of the ones that WILL go for the cro-magnons are the ones from sub-saharan africa, as is the case with mokele-mbembe, a naval myth unit, and kongamato, a flying one

Edited February 1, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Yeah, Wikipedia is often a good starting-place. Pantheon.org is another. A lot of what I know about mythical creatures are just one or two sentences from sites like Wikipedia and Pantheon. But I had interpreted your earlier post to mean that was your only source!

Some websites are really excellent, though. Theoi.com has become my first stop for Greek myths now, because it rocks. Mythindex is also pretty good.

The Maya and Aztecs had lots of gods, probably enough if you can get good sources about them. I may be able to help me on that research a little, I have a couple books at home that have a little info about the gods.

I do have a book of Maori myth at home that has the major gods in it. I don't know if you need to add any gods, or if the Hawai`ans have enough.

For the Polynesian myth units, a list of what sorts of Taniwha you could use might include:

Land Taniwha

Ngarara (giant black, grey, or white lizard/alligator/wingless dragon)

Moko Taniwha (as Ngarara, but can shapeshift)

Ngarara Kei Runga (a flying Ngarara with feathery wings)

Water Taniwha

Marakihau

Rongo-tumu-here (giant octopus Taniwha)

plesiosaur-like Taniwha

giant shark

giant fish

whale Taniwha

giant eel/sea-serpent/giant sea-snake

giant sea turtle

Megalania is specifically Australian, so I don't consider it appropriate for Polynesia (and you don't need Megalania if you have Taniwhas). I personally don't like the idea of using dinosaurs or modern cryptids for the Neolithic people, either -- if you extend back to the Pliocene or Miocene there are numberless cool prehistoric mammals to use, some of them larger than mammoths, which should be more than enough, and give a much more consistent feel to that civilization.

EDIT: added more about Taniwhas

Edited February 21, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

again, those other pacific and prehistoric MUs would be included to fill out the rest or to fill in as either weaker or stronger MUs for their respective cultures. one reason i wanted to include the Ripper Dragon is because one of the new hawaiian gods is a goddess of lizards, and what could be more fitting than a giant monitor lizard?

im also planning to make some tributes to old films and literary works in bestiary and myth units for some cultures, particularly the cro-magnons, like their bestiary would be more realistic versions of the crystal palace dinosaurs, ie, one of the huntable animals introduced as cro-magnon bestiary would be Iguanodon, a dinosaur. aside from that, there would also be a set of cenozoic animals for a more realistic cro-magnon environment. another thing i wanted to emphasize with some of these cultures is the idea of lost worlds, like in conan doyle's famous novel or in king kong or journey to the center of the earth. to that end, there would probably be Gigantopithecus huntable animals in reference to king kong

[Aldandil]

I'm just saying that you shouldn't need to "fill in" the myth units by making stuff up, it should be entirely possible to get them from the same culture as the mortal units, by doing research on the myths and stories of the culture.

My comment about dinosaurs and cryptids is just about my personal preference. Obviously, the Cro-Magnon/Neolithic units will have to be almost 100% made up.

Man oh man, I wish I could help out with 0AD, TLA, and the mods by coding or creating art. But neither of those is part of my skillset.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

same here thats one of the reasons im making all these written designs, to cut back on the work the modding teams would do if and when this becomes a possibility

for the first time since i started this project, im working on filling in the information for each of gods for every culture and not just the ones that i want to do. im starting with the descriptions of each god and ill amost desperately try to get focuses, techs, MUs, and godpowers for them afterwards

[buggy123]

my goodness, quite a conversation we have here. The creative juice is overflowing

if your really gonna do this, you better start fast. Good luck!

[oshron]

ive done some more work for the heroes and favor generation of the first five cultures: the celts, egyptians, greeks, mesopotamians, and norse. i should also clarify that, for the project, each civilization will be one of three types: either Soverign, with one or two "leader" hero units and usually a mass-production hero, Heroic, with mythological characters as heroes who never actually die but can be knocked out but will revive under certain conditions, or Chivalric, with just a cheap, weak mass-production hero. these are based on the Egyptians, Greeks, and Norse from AOM, respectively.

CELTS (Sovereign)

the celts get a King as their sovereign and the mass-production Druid

the celts get favor by having a druid plant a tree and then having mortals pray around it, basically just stereotypical pagan ritual

EGYPTIANS (Sovereign)

like in AOM, the egyptians get a Pharaoh and the mass-production Priest. however, im contemplating replacing the Priest with the Magician, since magicians are mentioned as being present in egyptian courts in the bible and that would also leave priests available for another culture or as a regular unit

also like ikn AOM, they get favor by building monuments

GREEKS (Heroic)

like in AOM, the greeks get favor by praying at temples and they have a different set of heroes for each major god. i currently have it as this:

Zeus gets Jason, Odysseus, Bellerophon, Leonidas, and finally Hercules. im missing a hero to go between Jason and Odysseus for a second advancement hero

Poseidon gets Theseus, Hippolyta, Atalanta, Alexander, and Polyphemus. again, im nissing a second advancement hero here.

Hades gets Oedipus(?), Chiron, Orpheus, Perseus, and finally Achilles. im not sure if oedipus would go well here, and im missing a hero for the advancement between orpheus and perseus

MESOPOTAMIANS (Chivalric)

the mesopotamians get favor simply by building cities; all of their buildings very gradually generate favor, so they are encouraged to build large cities to get more favor faster.

however, im having trouble with the mesopotamian heroes. my first idea is Priestess, based on the epic of gilgamesh, or maybe just Priest would be better. another idea i had a long time ago is simply Nobleman, a chariot-riding hero

NORSE (Chivalric)

like in AOM, the norse get favor by fighting, and their heroes generate favor very slowly simply by existing.

this time around, the norse heroes are Jarls, not hersirs, which are permanently mounted noble warriors. theyre good at fighting myth units, but not much else

[Aldandil]

I don't know enough about Mesopotamians to help you with that. The only comment I have at the moment is that Hercules is the Roman name; his Greek name is Herakles.

[oshron]

i know, i just personally prefer hercules to heracles. in the final version, he would have the more correct name

[Archangel_Jack]

It's actually Herakles, not Heracles.

[oshron]

whatever! the idea is the same!

[oshron]

hello again. ive been working on the project again and ive decided to reformat it again to more closely match up with the current specs for 0ad. the only one ive done very extensive work on so far are the celts(ive been reworking pantheons, and so far the celts are the only ones to have a more complete civilization setup). alot of it is still "leftovers" from the 0ad original, but i plan to replace some of units and functions with new ones. for example, they are no longer divided into "Gauls" and "Britons" and are simply "Arthurian Celts". what i currently have as new units are both Demigods (this one's version of Super Units, just to go with the mythology theme):

Lambton Knight: functions as an infantry swordsman with higher-than-normal armor and the special trait of hurting all enemies adjacent to him constantly because he is covered with spiked armor. he's based on the medieval legend of John Lambton, who slew the Lambton Worm using such a suit of armor

Mounted Knight: simply a very heavy cavalry spearman, he's expensive but has high armor and attack power as well as a bonus against myth units

tthe heroes from 0ad are pretty much thrown out with new functions that help differentiate cultures, as i mentioned earlier. the Arthurian Celts are a Sovereign culture and get the King and the Druid as heroes, which are classed as Sovereign and Sovereign Support, respectively. i personally imagine the King as actually being based on Graham Chapman's portrayl of King Arthur:

it may not be entirely authentic (im not really sure on that end) but for basic ideas, it works. im currently imagining the Druid as looking like a stereotypical shaman with a ram or deer skull on his head.

[Aldandil]

Well, if King Arthur was a real historical person, he would have lived in the 5th or 6th century, so he wouldn't have armor like that, and probably not that kind of shield either.

Also, I think the Celtic gods kind of belong to an earlier Britain than King Arthur does.

The Lambton knight is an interesting idea, though I don't think that doing constant damage to everyone around him really makes sense. Spiked armor might do damage to anyone who hits him, but it wouldn't reach out and attack people on its own, like flaming tentacles.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

the idea more came from an invented godpower i saw in a LOTR mod for AOM, in which some thorns were summoned in a circle and did the exact same effect as the lambton knight. the same effect will be applied to the Peluda myth unit(that one makes a bit more sense, since it actually had "tentacles"

and its not everyone around the knight, its enemies that are adjacent (right next) to it. he would also have the trait of not being able to be hurt by myth unit special attacks, in reference tothe lambton tale

ill go back and look in on the arthur stuff

ive also finished up the new setups for the first five factions (Celts, Egyptians, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Norse). i had to cut out some of the minor gods that i had before. for instance, dionysus and baldr are no longer in consideration. which still makes sense: dionysus wasnt really an olympian to begin with, and baldr died in norse legend, which was the first event leading up to ragnarok. freyr, who really was a more important deity than baldr, is put in in his place.

speaking of freyr, i actually learned recently that its odin, thor, and FREYR that are the most important norse gods, and not odin, thor, and loki. even so, i decided to keep loki as the "evil" major god because he is the more infamous one, tricking people on a regular basis, killing baldr, and so on

EDIT: ive also got the Arthurian Celtic panthon pretty much down. here's what i have so far:

Major Gods

Toutatis

-- god of tribal protection

-- Traits: soldiers have more health and more resistance to attack from myth units

-- Bonus: Blessing (heroes and demigods are protected from enemy godpowers: they cannot be affected by godpowers that specifically target units, but if theyre caughgt in a natural disaster-type godpower, theyll still be hurt, but chances are theyll be able to walk away from it)

-- Technology: (i dont have a tech for this one yet. any ideas?)

-- God Power: Barrier (creates a shell of magic over a wide area, protecting it from projectiles, myth units, and godpowers. myth units cannot enter or exit the barrier, which means it could also be used to trap enemy myth units that are trying to march on you while your soldiers escape, but soldiers and mortal weapons like catapults and ships can still pass through it. imagine it as being kind of like the energy shield from Star Wars in effect)

Brigantia

-- goddess of victory

-- Traits: soldiers have more armor and do more damage while hunting

-- Bonus: Flaming Arrows (ignites all your projectile weapons, making them do more damage, especially to )

-- Technology: (i dont have a tech for this one yet. any ideas?)

-- God Power: Torc Triath (summons the King of Boars to fight for you)

Beira

-- goddess of winter

-- Traits: melee soldiers have more health and armor

-- Bonus: Crystal Towers (allows you to build practically indestructible Crystal Towers in addition to basic outposts and wall towers)

-- Technology: (i dont have a tech for this one yet. any ideas?)

-- God Power: (i dont have a godpower for this one yet. any ideas?)

Minor Gods

Cernunnos

-- god of horned animals

-- Focus: Druids

-- Technology: Horned Ones

-- Myth Units: Ram-headed Snake (no special abilities, just an early myth unit to help out soldiers), Grindylow (naval myth unit, again, no special abilities)

-- God Power: (i dont have a godpower for this one yet. any ideas?)

-- available to Toutatis and Brigantia for advancement to the Town Phase

Sulis

-- goddess of thermal springs

-- Focus: civic

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Banshee (ghostly woman that can scream to both lower enemy morale and temporarily paralyze them with fear, which means that your soldiers now have weaker targets that are completely open to attack), Selkie (naval myth unit, a special unit trained at the dock as a seal and can go onto land and attack soldiers with its teeth, and can also transform into a human being to double as a villager to help out with the economy)

-- God Power: (i dont have a godpower for this one yet. any ideas?)

-- available to Brigantia and Beira for advancement to the Town Phase

Macha

-- (i actually havent decided what her role is, as theres no less than a dozen different Macha goddesses in celtic legend that have been derived from the same entity, iirc, so this one'll take a little while to work out)

-- Focus: civic

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Bogeyman (a ghost-like embodiment of terror, he has a bonus against all units and takes different forms while fighting different units, and he also slightly lowers the morale of soldiers near him)

-- God Power: (i dont have a godpower for this one yet. any ideas?)

-- available to Toutatis and Beira for advancement to the Town Phase

Gobannus

-- god of smiths

-- Focus: armory

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Questing Beast (i havent yet come up with anything for the questing beast)

-- God Power: (still required))

-- available to Toutatis and Brigantia for advancement to the City Phase

Nantosuelta

-- goddess of earth and fire

-- Focus: (still required)

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Jack-in-Irons (a giant man in chains wielding a club, he has a slight bonus against cavalry and siege, but also has a weakness: when he is near allied units, he actually becomes weaker!)

-- God Power: (still required))

-- available to Toutatis and Beira for advancement to the City Phase

Mogons

-- god of war

-- Focus: soldiers

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Knucker (a serpentine dragon that can poison enemies when it bites them, continuously hurting them for ten more seconds after the attack)

-- God Power: (still required))

-- available to Brigantia and Beira for advancement to the City Phase

Belenus

-- god of heat and healing

-- Focus: healing (meaning Druids and hospitals)

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: (still required)

-- God Power: Henbane (invoke in an area around enemy units to give them hemlock poisoning, continuously hurting them for thirty seconds after the godpower is invoked)

-- available to Brigantia and Beira for advancement to the Empire Phase

Epona

-- goddess of horses

-- Focus: cavalry

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Green Knight (a fictionalized version of the Green Knight from Arthurian legend, this knight boasts great strength as well as the ability to summon magical roots that drag a single enemy unit underground, killing them instantly, and his horse also deals "trample" damage, that meaning that, when he moves, any units he's adjacent to receives damage), Lake Maiden (a fictional servant to the Lady of the Lake, she has no attack and is instead a support unit to other naval units, and she is also protected by the Lady's magic, making her practically indestructible)

-- God Power: (still required))

-- available to Toutatis and Brigantia for advancement to the Empire Phase

Lugh

-- god of the sun and trickery

-- Focus: (still required)

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Dullahan (a headless horseman that attacks with a spinal cord as if it were a whip, and he will occasionally raise his severed head, which then spews flames over a wide area. he also has the unique ability to force enemy gates to open for him, even if they are locked), Niseag (the Loch Ness Monster, a naval myth unit that has two abilities: she can charge a short distance onto land, rendering herself vulnerable to attacks from soldiers but allowing her to pursue soldiers that try to run away from teh shore, and th other allows her to dive under a ship and capsize it, sinking it instantly)

-- God Power: (still required))

-- available to Toutatis and Beira for advancement to the Empire Phase

Nodens

-- god of the sea, hunting, and dogs (demoted from Major God)

-- Focus: hunting and navy

-- Technology: Silver Arms

-- Myth Units: Pendragon (formerly called Welsh Dragon or Vortigern Dragon, a winged dragon so heavy that it cant clear forests or buildings but can still fly over terrain, cliffs, and water, it has a bonus against all soldiers and will occasionally breathe fire for extra damage against any unit or building in the range of its fire, doing especially high damage to ships, siege, and buildings)

-- God Power: Camelot (summons several Knights of the Round Table to fight for you. they are very powerful and all named, and all have bonuses against myth units, but, unlike the named heroes of Heroic cultures, when they die, they are gone for good)

-- available to Toutatis and Brigantia for advancement to the Legend Phase

Maponos

-- god of youth

-- Focus: (still required)

-- Technology: Airmed's Cloak

-- Myth Units: Aughisky (naval myth unit, i still have to come up with special abilities, and im also missing a terrestrial myth unit for maponos)

-- God Power: (still required))

-- available to Brigantia and Beira for advancement to the Legend Phase

Manannan

-- god of the sea

-- Focus: ships

-- Technology: (still required)

-- Myth Units: Water Giant (a giant amphibious construct that smashes buildings with walls of water. again, im missing a land myth unit)

-- God Power: Maelstrom (creates a gigantic storm at sea that destroys enemy ships, naval myth units, and damages or destroys anything within its range from the shore. the player can control where it moves for as long as it exists)

-- available to Toutatis and Beira for advancement to the Legend Phase

youll notice that the celts have alot of naval myth units. this is because they are still lacking in the naval department and have those units to compensate

EDIT: i also worked out the arthurian units, for the most part, and renamed all the new units and buildings with old english names:

Sweordfreca (Swordsman)

Gárwiga (Spearman)

Strælbora (Archer)

Rædehere (Cavalry Swordsman)

Rídend (Cavalry Spearman)

Cwene (Female Citizen)

Cíepa (Trader)

Céapscip (Merchant Ship)

[bireme]

[Trireme]

Feohtgegyrela (Onager)

Ramm (Ram)

Héafodport (Civic Center)

Hired (House)

Cornhús (Granary)

Feormehám (Field)

Bernhús (Corral)

Cíepehús (Storehouse)

Foreweard (Outpost)

Múr (Wall [Gates are called Geat])

Hwearf (Dock)

Læcehús (Hospital)

Mílitisc (Barracks)

Caer (Fortress)*

Melonas (Special Building)**

* this is the only structure that has a Welsh name instead of an Old English one

** this is boosted directely from the 0AD Celts

Edited April 1, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

I don't know much about Celtic myth, so the only comments I can make are about names:

Gobannus should be named Goibhniu, that's his Celtic name. Gobannus looks like the Latin mispronunciation.

The units should have Gaelic or Welsh names, not Old English ones. The Old English were Germans, not Celts, and they invaded Britain and beat the Celts. They're the folks King Arthur supposedly rallied the British to fight against.