Unarmed

At first I wasn't so sure what to think. But I think it's a nice idea. Could be very useful when you have an economy and want to know how everything is doing. You click on a button and you see that you have few workers and few collection rate of wood. Though some arguments against: -I notice already if one particular rescource is doing well by the amount of it. So I'm not sure if it is really needed. -It could maybe make the game too easy? Welcome to the forum by the way! Keep on sharing your ideas.

The biomes are great. I have no idea if this is a original idea or (partly) from another game but that does not matter. I hope to see more biomes, it does such a excellent job to the atmosphere. It is truelly great, I'm very positive about this. I myself do not care about the fantasy ones like gear, so perhaps a filter that says: -Authentic maps It would also be nice to have better or more detailed descriptions. I would like to know what factions would be there. I prefer playing as immersive as possible so with factions that might or would be there (though I could play scenarios for that). This task could be done by fans of the game who like to help out. One biome I would like to see is a green Middle Eastern map. Just like many people when I was young I was under the impression that the whole Middle East was desert and mountains. But when I was about 14 (that's 7 years ago) I came across some beautiful pictures of Iran which was very green (can't find it anymore I did look). That would be nice. The biomes are fantastic work. The scenarios are also great, very immersive. The only critism I have but I'm sure has been heard is some animals are placed on the wrong biomes. Some might be placeholders which is fine. But being such a nature freak when I see a wildebeest in Turkey it makes me a bit like Michael Scott seeing Toby return: Only with the wildebeest though as it is quite an error and of course I'm exaggerating.

Easter eggs seem more like something that a developer happens to make that doens't belong in the main game or something they enjoy making and put in the game for fun. Not something to suggest, unlike things that would be in the main game. Though it does little harm requesting for them. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ https://docs.google....eVE&output=html Here I could make some adjustments to. Wolves do live in Asia and Middle East, though I do not know if there are already too many dangerous animals there. There are also North African aurochs and Asian ones, but those might already be extinct in the timeframe. I could take a better look, also at the biomes, and help make them feel more authentic (not too extreme) but I feel like nobody cares. Today I want to make some skins for mostly generic animals so we can have indefinate placeholders.

I assume none of the ideas. Fair enough.

This I fully agree with. Of course I want to see the rhinos and gorillas in full glory! Micket made awesome models, it would be a heresy to not include them! Also the Serengeti scenario for example is great. I love it. I don't want to argue to much about this since I already have given my opinion, so this will probably be the last. While there are exceptions there is a trend to more accurate games. There are still many hollywood type of things (which I can adore, I was playing Call of Duty at a friend and thought the war hyenas while very unlikely (pet hyenas excist in Africa and the Middle East), were pretty cool). Some games ignore accuracy, but these are not based on something real like 0 A.D. Compare Age of Empires 1 to Age of Empires 3, Age of Empires 3 had much more accurate units and factions. Though yes there were some hollywood style inventions and Age of Empires 3 had some arcade elements. At least, on most game or mod forums I have been, there are always quite some threads about accuracy. Look at the Rome 2 Total War Center forum and you'll see "thousands" of those. That's of course the case with games based on something real. Though even on the Worms forum, the Worms series is known for it's humerous ridiculousness, someone was stating his concern with a weapon that did not have the same function as it name has in real life. EDIT: I played Age of Empires 3 demo for inspiration and fun. It even has pronghorns! Not many people know about this animal. Though yes even Age of Empires 3 has inaccuracies. The dog portrait is a German shephard which is a breed from Nazi Germany. The coyote portrait is that of a wolf and the coyotes themselves are large enough to be wolves. 0 A.D looks much prettier than Age of Empires 3 by the way.

I see there are quite some units in scenarios not available in multiplayer. I assume this is done for balance reasons. These could be potential units for upgrade dilemmas, like; Gaul -naked fanatic or champion swordsman Persia -Indian war elephant or Assyrian siege engine However this is much more difficult to implement of course. It is quite a challenge to balance. It does make a player not give too many options making it unfair, but in 2v2 you could have Gauls with both naked fanatics and champion swordsmen (1 player having the fanatics the other the swordsmen). Another issue is that one unit does not get picked at all.

Sorry if I make it seem TREMENDOUS IMPORTANT. But yeah it is important to me. It may seem hard to understand, but if you made a anarchronostic medieval Persian soldier, there would be people complaining about it or not liking it. Look at the Total War Center topics for Rome 2. Many people nowadays want accuracy, I want this partly with animals (I don't mind very generic animals). I still think it's awesome. But I do not want to see other creatures forgotten. I'm some sort of nature freak, you have to understand. It was not my intention to sound very whiny or like a cry baby, just wanted to share my opinion. I think if this wasn't about animals but about anarchronostic soldiers I was taken more seriously which is kind of unfair. Again, I think it's awesome to have rhinos and gorillas, I don't want them not in the game, but I want other animals not forgotten! (and I'm not talking about specific subspecies or small critters like rats)

This is a bit a no-brainer but it is a good tip. I always do that. Lowering the amount of population will also make the game much easier in my opinion against AI.

Note that we are talking about Sanderds bear idea, I have sort of abondoned my original idea. I agree. And I think it could be interesting early game for less casual players too; a extra challenge. I can understant his view though. And I have only played against AI, in which the early game is kind of challenging as you need to manage more, but otherwise you don't have to worry about forces attacking you. I have no idea if most players rush in multiplayer. Rushing + animals raiding could be a bit too much perhaps. The special building I think is a good solution to this. It could be very Age of Empires 3 like or like the game I mentioned: Seven Kingdoms. In Seven Kingdoms the monster lairs would give you gold when you destroyed it (and the monsters themselves). In Age of Empires 3 (I only played the demos) I think you had all sorts of animals and humans that would give you gold or food. So there would be a building, requires extra work though, (cave for bears, macaques could perhaps be given a ruined temple, baboons several trees together) in which there are raiding animals. They raid your farmshet. The animals could respawn or not respawn. The purpose of the building is making them only available on certain maps and making it easier to distinguish. The building, better said lair, could give food when destroyed. I must say I enjoyed those kind of things in the Age of Empires 3 demos. Though those type of things should only be on specific scenarios (like the treasures). In Seven Kingdoms it was a strategy of instead going for (read attacking) enemy factions to go for monster lairs as these would give you gold when destroyed. I really want to know from you alpha123, with all these alternatives and solutions Sanderd and I give, do you think it is still an issue? Basically would you prefer: -raiding bears (and monkeys when they are made) to be only on specific maps made for singleplayer/casual play -raiding bears in multiplayer matches similar as dangerous animals -or no raiding bears at all? I think if implemented it has the potential to be something quirky (read unconventional) in a good way. Reasons: -extra challenge early game -something unique -atmospheric I think it's a bit unfair to quickly say no to this idea, when there are options to solve issues that it could potentially have. If the options are non-existant, or the idea itself does not add anything to gameplay then yes. Obviously, it isn't just the idea itself that could be a problem, implementing it takes manpower and time, that could be used for more important things or for non 0 A.D related stuff. I'm no programmer but it seems not that hard to make a bear steal food from a farmshet. Monkeys raiding in groups seem harder and making specific buildings costs more time.

I first had some trouble with the Ai too. I did several things wrong compared to the AI. I made too few females (shame on me! But I thought I needed more men for defending), and I did not put all my citizen-soldiers to work. Only late game when you are beginning to float you can have citizen-soldiers do nothing. Though about the females. I tend to make around 10 for farming, seems enough, and about 5 to 10 for wood gathering together with citizen-soldiers (the men get bonuses with females around, not sure if already implemented). So not as many as the Ai does. Most of my citizen-soldiers I then build I let them do wood, since I need that the most. The first thing I (try to) do is making the market, because I tend to have a lot of wood or food, and so I can make it even. By the time I am in the next phase, so I need iron and stone, so I make 5 to 10 guys for stone and 5 to 10 guys for metal. However I use mostly the market to get my stone and metal. I make quite some towers, and I also upgrade these towers with watches for more arrows. Let the Ai come to you, and use it to let your citizen soldiers gain experience. The AI does not retreat (I hope their will be a retreat button in the future mainly for players, but this could mean the AI could retreat also), so they let their soldiers die and you gain experience without losing much. Make as many fortresses as you can since these also have arrows. Another thing I did bad in the beginning was not expanding as aggresively as the AI. Try to expand.

Can you be more specific? Which idea do you not like? The normal animals raiding farms or the bear and monkeys raiding farmsheats? If you mean the normal animals, I think you have a fair point. Since these would be numerous (though there are ways to limit it, only some species would do it). But this is a good argument against that. The bear idea however I see no issues. It's effect would be similar to the dangerous animals that attack your troops. Or do you think dangerous animals are also distracting and extremely annoying? The farm raiding would be limited to some specific species: bears which could take the most food, and monkeys which would take little food but would come in gangs, but are easy to kill. I would think these animals would not be numerous, at least the bear. This idea is just as random as dangerous animals attack. In my opinion not very random since you would know which species raid. See things like the locusts or earthquake are really random, and this would definatly interfere with gameplay, hence I do not like it. I just brought it up. (Other issues with this is; you can't stop it from happening, you can't defend against etc.) I can understand your concern. And it's good to not all agree. Though I do feel like it would be less of an issue than you make it to be, in the case of the bear idea, the farm raiding and locusts (the locusts which I did not like by the way) yes those have the potential to be really annoying. Also, in case of the bear, which I now favor over my original idea, because you make a good point, it would only really be early game. Another true issue could be that you do not see the bear or monkeys stealing, and you are seriously being drained from food. That would certainly be annoying. But right now the same can happen with regular armies. If you get some kind of warning when your farmsheat is being raided I see little issue. Another thing: Why yes? Well first it was just a gimmick idea. But now I think it could be interesting early game. Also, it could be implemented like this: -bear raiding -bear non raiding However, the issue I see with that is it becoming confusing. The idea is that the raiding bears would be for scenarios and the non raiding bear for multiplayer. The raiding bear could also be from a building of some sort, and this building together with the raiding bears would only be on scenarios (or other special maps).

The bear idea is great! I can imagine the look on the face of a new player when a bear steals its food. For your idea, bears are good, in India maps there could be the Rhesus Macaques (monkeys) stealing and Middle Eastern maps Hamadras baboons or generic baboons, Africa obviously baboons generic or otherwise. North-Africa could be bears (in Atlas mountain area) or the Rhesus Macaques as indefinite placeholders for Barbary macaques. I'm giving examples what species should do this, I saw these species on the list (generic baboons and Rhesus Macaques) but they aren't done yet. I also got the idea from the wild boar issue here in the Netherlands. The biggest issue people have with wild boars is them destroying farmlands (and gardens) with rooting. Otherwise they would be everywhere just like small deer (roedeer) here, though traffic is also an issue. When I wrote this idea I also got the idea of bandits. Now that I've read your idea I got a better idea. This could be something for specific scenarios not something for random maps I think. Just some generic campsite building and some generic bandits that instead of stealing from your farmstead steal from your mill. But this requires additional textures and models, which you don't have with animals. Another idea that right now comes to my head is locusts. But that's a bit too random event (I thought of reading something that this was a big no-no) like and you can't do anything about it. In short: I do not like the idea of insect plagues. The bear-farmstead idea is truelly genius. Though I also still like my idea of destroying farms. The bear would also be pretty funny. Imagine an army of bears near your farmstead. EDIT: just some videos to show the species that raid buildings: Baboons (they are a problem in South African cities) Rhesus Macaques (India has monkey catchers for a reason) This shows how much a bear can do to get to his food: I'm not sure if Barbary macaques raid buildings. Baboons and Rhesus I know they do for sure. I must say at first I wasn't sure about this idea, but I like it more and more!

Great to see very casual gamers (if I may call him that) play the game. It's a challenge to make the game appeal to both casual players and hardcore gamers. But I think the game does a great job. Something like formations and more complex upgrading might be less casual, but as you are not really forced to do those, people can play it as easy as they want. I'm also kind of casual. I'm not sure if multiplayer appeals to me, at least not during this stage when speed seems the most important. I don't mind speed, in Company of Heroes you had to be really fast too (doing something too late could mean losing), but there were also a lot of tactics which I'm sure 0 A.D will have when the formations are done right. But right now it seems to be mainly about speed. Which I don't think I can handle. Playing with a friend together against AI seems great. I might do that but most of my friends aren't really into real time strategies. Guess I'll have to force them... I also like playing for the atmosphere, so I mainly play factions that would be in a particular area. I think I said this, but the scenarios are great! I hope it will have a pop limit soon. Even if the lag is finished, I prefer to play with 200 maybe 250 units, 300 gets too demanding for me, too much managment going on.

While I have the best memories playing Age of Empires and Empire Earth, my favorite classic/old rts has to be Seven Kingdoms: Ancient Adversaries. The team should look at the diplomatic system and diplomatic AI for inspiration, it is great (the combat was nothing special, spies was also interesting). I have the disk version but this game is free now by the way. Check it out! One thing that was quite cool was the Frythans, monsters that would attack your base. Obviously I don't want monsters in the game. So instead of monsters attacking your base, how about animals attacking your farms (raiding them)? Kind of like this, another inspiration for the idea: Note: those are Gelada, unlikely we will have them in 0 A.D, they are family of true baboons but not baboons. They only live in the Euthiopian highlands, not anywhere else in Africa. I'm wondering, since this is really a gimmick and I'm unsure if it would make gameplay interesting (Could be kind of challenging early game I guess), if someone likes the idea. All kind of animals "raid" crops, rabbits, wild boar even deer. Many more. I would think back in the days of Rome, raiding by animals might have been worse without having guns. Most animals however would "raid" farms when humans are not near them unlike the ballsy Gelada. But that doesn't matter in the game. Could this be interesting or is it too much of a useless gimmick?

So the animal list is not official? The one stickied? Or is it somekind of wishes from people? Don't get me wrong, I love having white rhinos and gorillas, but I would prefer European Elk and leopard first. And of course Micket should not be restricked in any way. I think that's a very good policy!

Might be a good idea to start. I shall think about it.

This is not directed to you Micket, I think you are doing a wonderful job, ignore this. I figure I could post it here since it's about this animal. Something is bugging me a bit about the official animal list. It's wonderful to have these African animals. But I feel a bit sad that these are done in favour of in my view more important animals that could make the excisting biomes better. Something like the white rhino and the gorilla are far away from the main factions areas. Again it's great to have them, but again I feel a bit sad that (common) animals that are in the faction areas are left out. See: Maybe their is a good reason for this. But why white rhino in favour of European elk? Why gorilla in favour of leopard? Maybe the team prefers to have a lot of biomes instead of very authentic biomes that I prefer (and when the main faction biomes are authentic move on to unique biomes like Congo forest and stuff like that). Sorry for this complaining, but it's bugging me. I would like to know why it is done, so I can understand. Again Micket this is not ment for you since you just do the animals from the official list, but it is about the animal in question.

You make fair points. By the way, what I was trying to say, when full factions are done, I would go for the most unique mini factions. Minifactions that are already incorporated somehow are to me personally (Note: my opinion does not reflect those of the developers! Just stated my view!) not that interesting to do, even if it is easier as you already have some units. Though I think you know I would love the Scythians. My opinion on animals is the opposite; I feel like (common) animals from the main factions areas should be done first, hence I don't understand why gorillas and rhinos are on the official animal list. America is very interesting, but not in the timeframe. Another problem is you have to make new animals and environment to make it feel authentic. There is a Serengeti biome and central African animals (while I think it's awesome, I don't fully understand the decision to make the Serengeti and especially the central African animals, which where also on the official animal list) so those additions makes the game scream for African people in some way. That's something I would love too. The thing is with me possibly making this minifaction, I'm still a noob with blender and I want to do other stuff like flora. On the other hand some stuff seems rather easy to me. I could make reskins of models to make them look like Africans, weapons seem not that hard to make and headwear also. Most animations can be reused. The biggest challenge I think would be making the buildings. I don't think I can learn that very quickly unlike weapons and headwear, though the African buildings are rather simple (maybe edit the Briton buildings?). Another issue could be the throwing knifes and their animation (maybe the javelin animation can be edited? Still seems hard.). I almost forgot about coding. I would think I could use other factions code and edit it. Seems easier in theory than in practice. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ I think their civil center should be called chiefs hut or something like that, since Bantu were ruled by chiefs, which I think would have a bigger house (no idea if that's true).

You make good points Lion.K I agree partly. Because I would like to see other minifactions, and it's good to start with things already in the game. On the other hand, a African faction is much more unique, and it is a minifaction since they did not have a "real nation". But yeah I get you. For example I do not get why the gorilla was made (I like a gorilla but that's not my point), as it is not in the current biomes or the existing factions would not get into contact with them. The gorilla also justifies in my opinion this African minifaction. Also, I would like to try and make this faction myself. If the developers would want to make it, I would suggest doing first the more important factions/mini factions.

Yes that's true. Note that it doesn't have to be done immediatly, it can be done much later. There are some unimportant on the official list, like the gorilla you made. As gorillas live in a very specific place in Congo forests, none of the biomes we currently have would have gorillas and no factions would live near gorillas. It's still nice to have though, I'm not complaining for having them. The ones I listed are those that would be in the current biomes and that factions would most certainly come in contact with. And some excisting animals could be made into placeholders. I would like to make a chital deer and fallow deer skin for the current deer, and perhaps the female lion could have a leopard skin as a placeholder for a leopard.

Man, Micket. You are a great contributor. Not to pressure you into anything, but I've made a list of large and some medium mammals that live in the area of the factions in 0 A.D. I think the most common ones are the most important as you'll see. NOTE: none of the mammals I listed are in the other official list! So if you want to contribute more, I have a list what animals would be the best to make. Later I will do medium mammals and birds, but medium animals are more secrative so you don't see them often (at home I see Roe deers often, hares sometimes, but I never see foxes or badgers). I also have some suggestions for the parrot and vulture which species should be used. See this thread: http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=16224 I hope to become the Micket of flora (plants, trees and mushrooms) someday. Today I will start practicing with Blender. Keep up the great work Micket!

Let me help out. I know most of the common animals. Go for Rose-necked parakeet, it was both in Africa and India, and is very common. It is a parakeet though, not a parrot. Go for Griffon Vulture, it looks like a stereotypical vulture and it also has a huge range; it lives in Europe, Asia, Middle East, North Africa. In ancient times it would have been much more numerous than now. Additional animals of ancient times of the regions in 0 A.D: Important to have (common) Good to have (more important as gorilla) Nice to have but not important (very location specific) (think gorilla) (Might add more) Flora I will do myself. EDIT: some can just be reskins, like chital and fallow deer, perhaps the gazelles. Though I would like to see them as placeholders, and someday replaced by accurate models.

I will search for pictures later. But I can't promise to find anything good. Since above pictures are rare. Offtopic: *whispers to Micket* Irish wolfhound for the Britons *whisper* (if you like, and if more important animals are done)

I know I know. That's why I said if it is a "placeholder" for a hare it's fine. But I just want to point out there are no rabbits in that biome. So if somebody thinks there are rabbits around the timeframe in Turkey; there are none.

Check out the first post again if you haven't done so. I updated it. I have somethings marked with (?) and (!). I need opinion on (!) and information on (?) I found something interesting: "By the Bantu migrations, I assume that you mean the expansion of the Bantu language speaking peoples from the region near modern Nigeria and Cameroon both south and east. This movement of peoples and culture (including agriculture and metalworking) happened in waves and took place over many centuries. Prior to their movement, all of Africa south of the equator was peopled by neolithic hunting and foraging tribes. Prior to the migrations, the Bantu were hunters and gatherers, but seemed to have the ability to link several villages and tribes into a larger group based upon trade and language. These Kinship groups coupled local autonomy into wider political structures that are not considered States or Nations in the typical meaning. Barkcloth, rather than fabric was typically used until the introduction of cotton many years later. They lived in beehive houses which were made with stones, mud, poles, and often cow dung. Food was typical of most hunter/gatherers and included small animals and possibly bananas. Later migrations spread agriculture and domestic animals." The houses information I could really use. About the migration, to reflect that, I think they should have cheaper civil centers. Ok, I made some unit concepts, here they go: (also shown are generic weapons and my references)