Aldandil
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Posts posted by Aldandil
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They shouldn't leave nice Persian rugs out in the sun like that, they'll fade.
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Anyway, the art here is awesome. I didn't know the Hellenes could get theaters. The way the tiles fade into the ground and the trees grow strait out of the tiles is a little odd, but otherwise this looks great.
If I get to play this game I probably will start with Greeks.
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The Maya Long Count calendar merely states that 2012 is the umpteenth-something anniversary of Creation. There's nothing at all in actual Maya writing about the "end of the world." That's just Hollywood bombast and exaggeration.
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Wow, I love the details of the seabed and the tidal zone.
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This image will not load for me. So far all the others have.
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Small nitpick: is it just me, or does the women in the middle have breasts twice as big as the other two women? They look huge and unnatural.
Otherwise, great art. Are those gazelles?
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This is amazing. Very lifelike.
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Wow, the art for this is amazing. It makes me want to play it.
What kind of graphics card is necessary to play this game? I was in a beta test for another game and it never once loaded on my computer because it hated my graphics card. I would be very sad if this didn't work on my PC.
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Yeah, Wikipedia is often a good starting-place. Pantheon.org is another. A lot of what I know about mythical creatures are just one or two sentences from sites like Wikipedia and Pantheon. But I had interpreted your earlier post to mean that was your only source!
Some websites are really excellent, though. Theoi.com has become my first stop for Greek myths now, because it rocks. Mythindex is also pretty good.
The Maya and Aztecs had lots of gods, probably enough if you can get good sources about them. I may be able to help me on that research a little, I have a couple books at home that have a little info about the gods.
I do have a book of Maori myth at home that has the major gods in it. I don't know if you need to add any gods, or if the Hawai`ans have enough.
For the Polynesian myth units, a list of what sorts of Taniwha you could use might include:
Land Taniwha
Ngarara (giant black, grey, or white lizard/alligator/wingless dragon)
Moko Taniwha (as Ngarara, but can shapeshift)
Ngarara Kei Runga (a flying Ngarara with feathery wings)
Water Taniwha
Marakihau
Rongo-tumu-here (giant octopus Taniwha)
plesiosaur-like Taniwha
giant shark
giant fish
whale Taniwha
giant eel/sea-serpent/giant sea-snake
giant sea turtle
Megalania is specifically Australian, so I don't consider it appropriate for Polynesia (and you don't need Megalania if you have Taniwhas). I personally don't like the idea of using dinosaurs or modern cryptids for the Neolithic people, either -- if you extend back to the Pliocene or Miocene there are numberless cool prehistoric mammals to use, some of them larger than mammoths, which should be more than enough, and give a much more consistent feel to that civilization.
EDIT: added more about Taniwhas
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i do see where youre coming from. the main problem is that not all the polynesian/pacific cultures have enough going for them to make a single military for them. what i had been trying to emphasize earlier was mainly that the hawaiians would be the major religious source, since theres alot of hawaiian deities, but as far as i know, theres not much military going for them, so that where the philippine weapons and whatever come in. australasia would be in there mostly for myth unit inspiration and for bestiary (teh idea is to have a few different animals and plants for each culture, so the polynesian wildlife would mostly be australian ones simply because there arent many large animals in the polynesian proper)
If you really are using nothing but Wikipedia for research (did you say that?) then you'll be hampered in finding accurate details about everything. Do you have any access to a library? I know it is more work, but it'll help a lot. You local library system might even have access to university libraries through an interlibrary loan program.
The Hawai`ans and Maori had significant militaries, even if they didn't have advanced technology, although not being a military expert nor familiar with RTS games, I can't evaluate how suitable those militaries would be. But between them I can come up with a number of myth units -- more if you include real extinct animals like moa, moa-nalo, and giant eagles (or myth-ified giant eagles that are large enough to pick up and carry a human being -- real giant eagles probably could not!). From what I have collected over the years I found Patupaiarehe, Pouakai/Hokioi/Giant Eagle, Halulu, Manaia/Bird-Man, Large Moa, Small Moa, Moa-Nalo, Wereshark, Werepig, Rongo-tumu-here, and several types of Taniwha. There are probably more. Hawai`ans and Maori are both eastern Polynesian cultures, they have a lot in common in their society, religion, and myths, and you can draw from other east Polynesian cultures if needed. Drawing from all of Polynesia, especially for your myth units, may be necessary, but as long as you don't mind stone age technology (which you don't seem to) it's probably possible to stick to just Polynesia or just east Polynesia for the mortal units. From the rest of Polynesia I found references to Haele Feke, Maero, and Vatea. There are also Tapairu, Putoperereko, and Turehu, which might all be the same as Patupaiarehe.
Another option is to switch entirely to the Philippines, which probably have enough of both mortal military units and myth units to work out. I don't know anything about the military capabilities of Australians, Melanesians, Micronesians, and New Guineans.
I see. It's just that that looks quite unreliable as a possible date. Without any solid archaeology to back up the existence of Polynesians that early, you can't get any mortal or myth units or technology out of those early dates anyway, so it won't help you.the earlier date was just from an apparently mainstream theory that lists that as the earliest POSSIBLE date for human colonization of polynesia, not necessarily teh earliest DEFINITIVE one
In that case 10,000-5,000 BC looks like a good pick. That includes the tail end of the Paleolithic and the start of the Copper Age, while focusing on the Neolithic. It'll also make it easier to justify Ice Age animals as myth units, since the Ice Age will have just ended around 10,000 BC and you can reasonably suppose they had myths about those animals. I am a little concerned how such animals will measure up to fire-breathing and magic-slinging myth units of other groups, but you can just make them super-beefy or something. Or give them super-devastating mages and shapeshifting Werelion and Werestag shamans. Heck, give them unicorns too, since nobody has convincingly come up with a real animal to explain that one cave painting at Lascaux, and the picture is just called "the Unicorn." It's stretching it to give them Paleolithic stuff like that, but basically they'll be a heavily fictional interpretation of a little-known culture anyway. I mean, nobody knows what myths any Neolithic people had, so you have to make it up anyway.i think ill just look into my history book to get a good name. what i want to date from is teh portion of the stone age when agriculture and domestication came into use and then date forward to the copper age.If you don't like giving unicorns to two different cultures, you can rename it Licorne (unicorn in French) and just make up special abilities for it that make it significantly different from Unicorns. (Besides, it has two horns, not one. Here's an image ref: http://www.heinle.com/french_d/templates/r...aux_licorne.jpg )
I suggested the Natufian name because that is the name given by archaeologists to an early Neolithic culture in the Fertile Crescent area. There's probably other names, given to other Neolithic cultures, you could use instead.
The other date changes I can't comment on, since I don't know much about those cultures at all.
I also have another few myth unit ideas for the Egyptians:
Uraei can acquire human arms (or a pair of wings?) as upgrades
Androsphinxes can acquire wings as an upgrade
Crocodile-Ram: A ram or bull with the head of a crocodile and the sideways, wavy horns of the Khnum-ram. I don't know what they are called, but you can call them Ba-Khenty, Ba-Sobek, Ba-Depy, Ba-Ad, Ba-Meseh, or Ba-Kapu. I like the name Ba-Khenty best.
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The reason that I continue to be 100% against lumping together all of Australia, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia, New Guinea, and Philippines into one gigantic "civilization" is that it is so inaccurate. These are completely separate culture groups that have very little in common. They aren't similar the way that Greeks are similar to Romans, or Persians are similar to Assyrians, or Maya are similar to Aztecs. They are utterly not similar. It isn't comparable to lumping Mesoamericans or Mesopotamians or Classical folks together. If you lump them all together, it will look as though you don't actually know how to tell them apart. It's a common problem to find European cultures depicted with relative accuracy in fiction, while non-European cultures are depicted very inaccurately, and it bugs the heck out of me.
I like what you're doing overall and it looks fun, but inaccurate things bother me.
The timeline for Polynesian settlement, according to my Prehistory textbook, starts with settlement in the western islands at 1000 BC, and in the eastern islands (including Hawai`i and New Zealand) no sooner than 500 AD. If Wikipedia has listed dates earlier than that, I would not trust them at all.
If you use Australia instead, then the settlement of that continent starts at 40,000 years ago. But of course, whatever cultures existed thousands of years ago were not the same as the cultures that lived there when Europeans invaded. Although you may have seen people stating that just because Australians had stone-age technology, that they were "frozen in time" "primitives" whose society never changed for thousands of years, this is totally false. So I would not give them a 6,000-year time-span either.
For dating the Cro-Magnons, for whom I assume you're using fictionalized Eurasian cave-men, the upper Paleolithic starts about 40,000 BC. The Ice Age ended 9,600 BC. The Neolithic began almost right away, around 9,000 BC in the Fertile Crescent. The Copper Age began 6,000 BC. The Bronze Age can be considered to start about 4,000 BC or 3,500 BC.
Regarding myth units: You could give the Native Americans moose cavalry. That would be so cool! It has no basis whatsoever in any myth that I know of (does that make me a hypocrite?), but it would be fun.
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No cacti are native to the Mediterranean region. All those that live there now were introduced by humans after the colonization of the Americas. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be available for scenario editors, but they should not be in 0 A.D. itself.
Lions: I've seen photos of Asian lions and they have manes; Greek vases also show manes. North African "Barbary" lions had heavy manes that extended over their whole belly.
North African elephants: should be edible
Dolphins: should also be edible, and if there's only one texture it should represent the common dolphin Delphinus delphis
Seals: these should be Mediterranean monk seals
Sharks: I don't think sharks attack people very often so I think unprovoked attacks should be a rare occurance, and since they are edible and are still eaten today, IMO they should be reclassified as dangerous consumable animals.
As for the eye-candy I wish -- If I could dream (and the artists had some kind of infinite time and money) or could model them myself:
wild animals: (not listed in the design document) for the random maps as well as the editor:
*wild donkey (small herd, edible) (color varieties?: African and Asian)
*Asian/Syrian elephant (herd, dangerous, edible) (extinct, larger than North African elephants)
*elk/moose (solitary, edible) don't know if they're really dangerous to humans
*great auk (flock, flightless, edible) (they lived in northwest Europe) if not for 0AD, then for TLA?
*hippopotamus (herd, violent or aggressive, edible) only for north Africa; usually stays around open water
*wild horse (tarpan) (small herd, dangerous, edible) refs: species description and an image linked from this blog
*spotted hyena (pack, dangerous)
*golden jackal (solitary, dangerous) (maybe with an additional color variant: side-striped?)
*leopard (solitary, dangerous)
*lynx (solitary, dangerous)
*monkey (pack, edible) only for Africa and Asia
*raven/crow (flock, flying, eye candy) if not for 0AD, then for TLA?
*swan (small flock, flying, edible) if not for 0AD, then for TLA?
*wild wisent (small herd, dangerous, edible) (European bison, now nearly extinct)
geography eye candy:
*karst topography elements: cliff face, sinkhole with cliff rim, limestone tower, limestone pavement
*streams entering and exiting underground
*beaver dam
plants: (not listed in the design document)
*food trees: Arbutus/Strawberry Tree, Cornel Cherry, Chestnut, Walnut, Almond
*non-food trees (eye candy): Yew, Elm, Plane, Laurel
*non-food plants (eye candy): giant fennel, papyrus
man-made features: (all eye candy, most destructible)
*huge sacred tree with ribbons, garlands, offerings, and so on hanging from it (no specific civ)
*Mycenaean tomb ruin (not destructible)
*small Carthaginian-style shrine/altar (to no specified god)
*small Celtic-style shrine or small sacred tree (unless it is redundant with the large sacred tree above)
*small Greek-style shrine/altar (to no specified god)
*small Iberian-style altar (to no specific god)
*small Persian-style fire-altar
*small Roman-style shrine/altar (to no specific god)
*small Greek-style hero shrine (did only Greeks have these?)
*generic Etruscan-style temple (to no specific god)
*generic Egyptian-style temple (to no specific god)
*generic Egyptian-style peasant/farmer house
*grungy plebian bar (if possible, a separate style of plebian bar for each faction that would have them: Greek, Roman, Persian, Carthaginian)
*trophy pillar with armor and/or ship prows
*circus (if not planned as a Roman special building)
*amphitheater (if not planned as a Roman special building)
*Egyptian obelisk
*the real Stonehenge (full size, fully reconstructed with all the extra stone and earthen bits it used to have) refs: history and reconstruction and two bird's-eye views
*maybe a Woodhenge as well? ref: this website which also has a history and reconstruction of Stonehenge
The statue of Zeus at Olympia doesn't make sense to me, since it wouldn't be sitting out in the open, but what about the whole temple? I'm guessing it was pretty huge, bigger than the regular temple in the game will be, and very highly decorated.
Last Alliance non-player units: (not suggestions for 0AD)
*giant eagles (like golden eagles) ref: http://digilander.libero.it/ilfossodihelm/disegnogwaihir.htm
*wild goblins/orcs (the kind in the Misty Mountains)
*wild stone-trolls (green and scaly) ref: http://digilander.libero.it/ilfossodihelm/...ouominineri.htm
*giant spiders
*entwives
*trees that kill people (like Old Man Willow)
*Tom Bombadil! (not killable)
If this is still in any way planned for 0AD, it would be very neat if the mythological "Gaia units" for the scenario editor were the sorts of nature spirits believed in by the various civs: thus from Greek belief satyrs, dryads, naiads, and river gods. From Roman belief would come beings such as fauns. I don't know what other civs believed in, but you get the idea. These are the kinds of mythical beings I could imagine wandering around the landscape of a scenario, probably all of them indestructible by mortals, or nearly so.As far as Mythological units go: No plans are set, but I intend to have at least a FEW myth or fantasy units represented in the editor, at the very least to show what is capable through modding, but to also make it possible for designers to make interesting custom scenarios straight out of the box.Just throwing out ideas.
EDIT:
I think that bad "scholars" such as Robert Graves just invented that supposed Minoan ritual. How would anyone know what religious rituals the Minoans had? There's no evidence unless someone witnessed it and wrote down a description in a legible language like Egyptian.(Historical note: the hangman tree is not just an idea from King Arthur it is also part of the mythology of Wotan/Odin and these hangman trees date way back into ancient history especially in the areas in the north of Greece, parts of southern Russia, and Georgia. Also the Minoans alluded to these trees in some of their ancient ceremonies by dancing while holding snakes in their hands around trees that had dolls hanging from their necks ) -
I'm still confused why you're separating the Aztecs and Maya into two separate civilizations -- how will you make them unique from each other? -- while lumping together all of Polynesia and Australia. That really makes no sense to me. I'd say just have Mesoamericans, Australians, and Maori or Hawai`ians (or maybe Polynesians in general? but don't include Micronesians, Melanesians, or Filipinos). That's three separate civilizations. That'll give the Mesoamericans enough units to work with, and won't artificially lump the Australians together with the totally different and separate Polynesians.
Do you intend the Cro-Magnons to be Paleolithic or Neolithic people? If they are Paleolithic, they can't go until 1700 BC, that's well after the Bronze Age started. They should be 30,000-11,000 BC, that keeps them well before the Neolithic. Unless you were aiming for Neolithic, then I think their time period should probably be narrowed to 9000-4000 BC, and the name would have to change to something else... call them Natufians? I'm not sure how it would work to have Neolithic people summoning prehistoric Ice Age animals, but then again, if you use Paleolithic people, you can't give them any real buildings...
The Egyptian time period looks to be basically the New Kingdom, which I agree is the best choice for them.
For lot of the others, I think most of them need much tighter focuses. The overall time period should be ambiguous, I agree with that, but each civilization should be historically consistent with itself, and that can't be done if they can't be placed within their own time frame less vague than a 3000-year span.
I'd say, narrow down the Romans to the Republic, no broader than 500-40 BC or 30 BC (that'll help keep them distinct from the 0AD Romans, who I assume will be imperial. The Greeks should be narrowed down to 1500-1200 BC, the Mycenaean period (again, this will help distinguish them from the iron age Greeks who I assume will be featured in 0AD). You can keep the Maya to the whole Classic, but it might be better to narrow them down to just the high Classic, 500-900 AD.
Likewise, many of the others should be narrowed down IMO. I don't know enough about the other civilizations to say what those ranges should be, but to give each civilization a consistent, recognizable look and self-consistent military tactics, most of them should be narrower in time period. The myth units can of course come from much broader time periods, but the historical units should not, IMO.
Unless... unless your aim is to cause the player to start at the beginning of a given time period for their culture and have to develop new technology, military formations, and units over time. Will that be possible with the 0AD game engine? I read that they have each civilization "frozen in time." If you can do that it could be very cool, and then the longer time ranges make much more sense. It would probably be even more difficult to balance, though.
I would like to see the Thai or Northwest Coast Native Americans in there, but there's already probably more civilizations than any coders will be willing or able to build. We can always dream, though.
If you want naval units I can give you the names of mythical creatures I know of that might work. Again, if there's any you don't recognize and want descriptions, let me know. I've got barely any info on them, though.
HELLENES
The Theoi website has several sea monsters, such as the Keto and Hippokampos
**Skolopendra
**Winged Hippokampos
MESOAMERICANS
**Acoatl/Water-Serpent (Aztec)
**Ahuizotl
NORSE
**Giant Octopus or Kraken: give to the Norse or the Christians
RAMATJU KUMAT (Egyptians)
Nothing I can think of, except the Spawn of Apep.
HAN (Chinese)
**Chi-Wen
**Gong-Fu
**Kui
**Pu-Lao
**Shachihoko (I don’t know the Chinese name, but I think they may have originated the myth.)
INDIANS
**Jala-Turaga: just like the Greek Hippokampos (you could give it to either civilization)
**Jalebha (fish-tailed elephant)
**Makara
**Naga (with upgrades for extra heads and/or fire-breathing)
**Timingila
MESOPOTAMIANS and PERSIANS
**Kulullu/Kuliltu (Assyrian)
**Suhurmashu
NIPPON (replace with whatever the Japanese call themselves)
The Obakemono website has several sea monsters
**Ayakashi (Japan)
**Giant Trout (Ainu)
ROMANS
The Romans had all sorts of fish-tailed beasts in their mosaics:
**Mer-Bull: I’m not sure this is different from the Greek Tauros Ophios, though.
**Mer-Gryphon (or give it to the Christians)
**Mer-Leopard: with or without wings (you already listed it as Leocampus)
**Mer-Lion (or give it to the Christians)
**Mer-Ram
CHRISTIANS
**Echeneis (Europe)
**Merman and Mermaid: give to either the Greeks or the Christians
**Ozaena (Spain)
**Sawfish/Serre/Sarce/Scie/Heraldic Flying Fish (Europe)
**Sea-Dog (heraldry) has four webbed feet, not a fishtail
**Sea Serpent (Europe)
Plus more fish-tailed critters:
**Bishop Fish/Monkfish (heraldry) the naval cleric/white mage unit!
**Fish-Knight (Aurthurian)
**Sea-Dragon (heraldic)
**Sea-Stag (heraldry)
**Sea-Unicorn: Maricorn/Alicorn (heraldry)
**Sea-Unicorn: Almaricorn (heraldry) winged Maricorn
**Sea-Wolf (heraldry)
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Naval units... I can probably post a list of possibilities for those, too.
Here are some more ideas:
Hellenes
**Huge hairy naked ogress: This comes from a vase-painting. Whatever folk-tale was told about her or them is forgotten.
Hellenes or Christians (whoever needs more myth units)
**Kallikantzaros: A sort of undead-like goblin of modern Greek folklore.
Egyptians
**Akh: The angry blessed dead? Mummies? Basically, my idea was to have vengeful spirits of the dead. They would definitely be corporeal, not ghosts but with their bodies intact. Maybe wrapped up as mummies, maybe not. The bodies of dead mortal Egyptian units must be rescued intact and brought to an embalming tent (a specific building) to turn them into Akhu. Later, you can upgrade them with the ability to transform into Bau and Kau.
**Animated Statue: Stone, the size of those huge Rameses statues. The Greeks probably have enough myths available, so you could give this to the Egyptians.
**Djehuty's Baboon: If intelligent, talking, literate monkeys are good for anything in battle, Djehuty can provide them.
**Setja/Serpopard: Probably bites like a leopard at a long range, or maybe venomous.
**Trained Hyena: The Egyptians kept Hyenas as livestock and ate them as delicacies. They never succeeded in domesticating them, but what if they had? This could be the lowest level myth unit or even a non-myth unit. It requires no resources as long as there is carrion to eat, and it is itself an edible resource for emergencies!
Norse
**Valkyries: These units are responsible for collecting the souls of mortal Norse units at their moment of death, and bringing them to some special building to train them as Einherjar. Unlike Akhu, the Einherjar do not need to keep their bodies.
Romans
**Lasa, Lar, Manis (the singular form of Manes?)
If it is possible to give the Romans three different ways to bring their dead mortal units back as mythics, all three of these could be used. Lasas are generally only female, though.
Indians
**Speaking of monkeys, how about Vanaras, Hanuman's monkey troops?
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I know, I'm just making suggestions. I think that, depending on how many myth units each civilization can have, there will be an opportunity to be picky about how accurate things are.
Apep-spawn sounds good. Giant water-serpents with sinister names sometimes served the gods.
If the Egyptians were going to have anybody that really resembled a god, I'd prefer to replace Inpu-men with something else like Lioness-headed women, Hawk-headed men, Ram-headed men, or Snake-headed men and women. They seem more like the sorts of minor deities that come in large numbers, and which a Pharaoh could claim to have control over. You can name them Khaty, or Khatyt for the females. Or give them longer names that reflect the animal type, um... Khatyt-hefaut (snake-woman), Khatyt-pakhet or Khatyt-rut or Khatyt-mahesat (lioness-woman), Khaty-hay (hawk-man), Khaty-ba (ram-man), or Khaty-hefaw (snake-man).
Here is an idea for a stationary object, like a building, for the Hellenes:
Dendros Lotos (the lotus-tree of the Lotus-eaters)
The Dendros Lotos is planted and grows on its own into a tree. Any units that get close to it have a chance of being entranced, especially weak and low-will units. In this way it is similar to the Seirenes, however it is an object instead of a unit. Also, instead of killing units, it just turns them into useless pot-heads who refuse to leave the tree or fight (except in self-defense). This also affects Hellene units, so it is used by running/flying in and planting the seed deep in enemy territory. Whoever owns (or conquers) the territory needs to destroy the tree to free up their units that it entranced.
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You've got a lot there! I like a lot of your choices. Gullinbursti didn't occur to me at all.
Apep I would’nt include, since he is the enemy of the gods and has no interest in helping anybody: he just wants to destroy the universe. Plus, he’s too powerful to summon or control. Shezmu is a god, and Petsuchos looks like a Greek rendering of Per-Sobek, meaning “temple of Sobek.”
Rather than post 13 pages, I'll list list the names of the creatures I found. If you want descriptions for anything specific, ask me. I'm also editing out the ones you already have.
Winged Lion (Mesopotamia, Persia, Etruscan, Indian, China, European heraldry) Since so many cultures have these, they can be added to whichever group needs more myth units.
HELLENES
http://www.theoi.com/Bestiary.html
That provides descriptions for the following Greek myth units: Kyklops, Drakon, Drakaina, Empousa, Gigan/Giant, Giant Boar, Gorgon, Harpyia, Half-Bear Giant, Hippalektryon, Hippos Kabeirikos, Kentauros, Kentauros Kyprios, Lamia, Mela Khryseos, Neas, Ornithe Areios, Satyros, Seiren, Serpent-Legged Giant, Six-Armed Gigan/Gegen, Tauros Khalkeos, Winged Horse
And the following unique myth units: Alopex Teumesios, Elaphos Khrysokeros, Hus Klazomenaios, Hydra, Karkinos, Kerberos, Khimaira, Lailaps, Leon Nemeios, Minotauros, Orthros, Phoinix, Skorpios, Sphinx, Talos, Tauros Kretaios, Tauros Ofis/Ofiotauros
It does have a lot of other things in it that I would consider out of place: gods, and animals and people that were specifically described as living in India or Africa.
**Drakon: Most were simply giant snakes. Aside from the amazing venom, they don’t really have anything that Egyptian Serpents of the Duat don’t.
**Elaphos Khrysokeros: A unique unit that might provide non-combat benefits of some kind.
**Griffin-Headed Bird
**Panther-Headed Bird/Lion-Headed Bird
**Winged Leopard (but I’d give these to the Romans if they’re included)
MESOPOTAMIANS and PERSIANS
**Abrasax/Abraxas (Persia)
**Azi Dahaka (Persia)
**Basmu (Babylonian)
**Camros/Chamrosh (Persia)
**Dragon, Persian (Persia, Mesopotamia)
**Griffin (Mesopotamia, Persia) Persian Griffins often have one short horn.
**Griffin, Goat-Horned (Persia) Griffins with the 2 long, curving horns of wild goats.
**Humbata (Sumer) Is this the same as Humbaba?
**Imdugud/Imgig Bird (Sumer)
**Karshipta (Persia)
**Leogryph (Persia)
**Huma (Persia)
**Karkadann (Persia)
**Kusarikku/Gud-elim/Gud-alim (Mesopotamia)
**Lamassu (Mesopotamia)
**Senmurv/Simurgh (Persia)
**Shadhahvar (Persia)
**Ugallu/Gallu (Sumer)
**Urmahlullu (Assyrian) A lion-centaur.
**Winged Bull and Bull of Heaven (Persia, Babylon, Mesopotamia)
**Winged Goat (Babylonian)
**Zu/Anzu (Sumer)
NORSE
**Ljosalf/Light-Alf, and Dwarf/Dopkalf/Svartalf/Dark-Alf
**Firedrake
**Hercinia/Ercinea/Hyrcinian Bird (Germany)
**Lindwurm/Lindorm (Norse)
**Noken (Norse)
RAMATJU KUMAT (Egyptians)
**Akhekh
**Androsphinx, Criosphinx, and Heiracosphinx (wingless)
**Magician: Have you heard of the Demotic Magical Papyri? Egyptians believed in them too.
**Sag/Zag
**Sefer (= Griffin)
**Serpent of Duat: They may have multiple heads, legs, wings, or arms, even heads on both ends of the body. Most or all breathe fire.
**Setja (= Serpopard)
**Sha (= Set-Animal) One scholar claims that it's a very slender feral pig, but I think it looks like an aardvark-headed dog. However, aardvarks barely have any teeth, so that might make them weak.
**Uraeus: fire-breathing!
**Winged Giraffe: This is not a joke!
HAN (the main ethnic group in China, but I think any Chinese myths would do for myth units)
**Bian
**Ba-Xia
**Bi-Xie/Bi Yao/Tian Lu
**Bo
**Celestial Stag
**Chiang-Liang
**Chao-Feng
**Crow of the Sun and Fire-Crow
**Fei-Fei
**Feng-Huang
**Fu-Xi
**Gui-Xian
**Hui
**Huli-Jing: see the Kitsune on the Japanese website (below)
**Jiu-Tou-Niao: nine-headed bird, an evil monster
**Long/Lung varieties: Fu-Cang-Long, Jiao, Shen-Long, Tian-Long/Tien-Long, Ying-Long, Zhu-Long
**Long-Gui
**Nian
**Peng-Niao
**Ping-Feng
**Qi-Lin
**Qiu-Niu
**Shi-Shi/Shi-Sa/Fu-Lion/Fu-Dog
**Suan-Ni
**Tao-Tie
**Xiao
**Yu-Ren
**Zhen-Mou-Shou
INDIANS
**Airavata (Hindu)
**Dragon, Indian (Hindu) such as Vritra
**Et-kanda-lihiniya (Sri Lanka)
**Four-Eyed Dog of Yama (Hindu)
**Horned Tiger (Indian, Harappan)
**Kimpurusha (Hindu)
**Kinnari (Hindu)
**Leogryph (Harappan) Instead of the Persian one, and with bull horns instead of goat horns.
**Nandini/Kamadhenu (Hindu) As a buff-granting or healing unit, not a combat unit.
**Serapendiya (Sri Lanka)
**Suparna (Hindu) A race of humanoid birds with hands, basically lesser versions of Garuda.
**Uchaishravas (Hindu)
**Yali/Vyala/Sardula/Gaja Simha (India, Sri Lanka)
**Yasha: see the Japanese site below
MESOAMERICANS
**Ciuteoteo (Aztec)
**Giant Bird (Mayan) It could be named Xecotcovach, Camulatz, or Tecumbalam.
**Itzpapalotl (Aztec)
**Jaguar-Serpent (Maya, Cacaxtla)
**Jaguar-Toad (Maya)
**Jaguar-Turtle (Cacaxtla)
**Lightning Snake/Fire Serpent (Mesoamerica)
**Mazacoatl/Deer-Serpent (Aztec, Teotihuacán)
**Serpent-Winged Bird (Maya)
**Vision Serpent (Maya)
**Were-jaguar shaman
**Zotz (= Giant Bat) Give it blood-sucking as an upgrade.
NIPPON
http://www.obakemono.com/introduction.php
That website has tons of possibilities, and you already have a lot. In addition:
**Hibagon/Hinagon (Japan)
**Horokew kamui (Ainu)
**Houkou (Japan)
**Humse kamui (Ainu)
**Huri/Furi kamui (Ainu)
**Nupuri-kesh-un-guru (Ainu)
**Raicho (Japan)
**Yamata no Orochi (Japan)
ROMA
**Griff-Tiger (Rome) Similar to the Persian Leogryphs.
**Phoenix
**Salamander (Roman) Small lizard which is ice-cold and deadly poisonous. It can extinguish fires, and its touch is enough to render food poisonous.
**Winged Panther (Etruscan)
CHRISTIANS
**Alerion/Avalerion (Europe)
**Alkonost (Russia)
**Allocamelus (heraldry)
**Alphyn (heraldry)
**Antalop/Aptaleon (heraldry)
**Antelope, Heraldic (heraldry)
**Bagwyn (heraldry)
**Cockatrice (Europe)
**Bonnacon/Bonasus (heraldry)
**Boreyne (heraldry)
**Caladrius/Charadrius (Europe)
**Calopus/Chatloup (heraldry)
**Calygreyhound (heraldry)
**Caretyne (heraldry)
**Pterocentaur/Pegataur (Europe) Winged Centaur
**Cynocephalus (Europe)
**Dragon/Drake (Europe) The typical European Dragon has four legs and two (sometimes four) bat-like or feathered wings. Often fire-breathing.
**Dragon: Amphiptere (Europe) Can breathe fire as an upgrade?
**Dragon: Vere Çelen/Gorynych (Russian, Chuvash)
**Dragon: Wyrm/Wurm/Worm/Guivre (Europe)
**Dragon: Wyvern/Wivern (heraldic)
**Dragon: Yilane/Zilant/Ajdaha (Tatar)
**Dragon: Zmei/Zmiy/Zmaj/Zmeu/Pozoj/Lamja/Balaur (Slavic)
**Enfield (heraldry)
**Enhydrus (heraldry)
**Gagana (Russia)
**Garafena (Russia)
**Heraldic Panther (heraldry)
**Hippogriff (Renaissance Europe)
**Hippotayne/Ipotan (Europe)
**Indrik-Beast (Russia)
**Jaculus (heraldry)
**Keythong (heraldry)
**Kikimora (Slavic)
**Leucrocuta/Leukrokota (heraldry)
**Lidérc/Csodacsirke/Iglic/Piritusz/Mit-Mitke, Cikavac, Földi Ördög, and Ördögszeretö/Ludvérc (Hungary, Serbian, Moldavia)
**Lincis/Chama/Heraldic Lynx (Europe)
**Lubolf (heraldry)
**Mantygre/Man-Tiger/Montegre/Satyral/Lympago (heraldry)
**Muscaliet (heraldry)
**Peryton (Europe)
**Scitalis/Scytale (Europe)
**Semargl-Pereplut (Slavic)
**Seps (heraldic)
**Theow (heraldry)
**Tyger (heraldry)
**Unicorn/Hippoceros/Einhorn/Licorne (heraldry)
**Vampire
**Werewolf
**Wivre/Guivre/Woutre (Europe)
**Yale/Eale/Jall/Centicore (Europe)
**Yppotryll/Ypotrill
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also, notice that in LOTR, when thee moria balrog's flames are extinguished, he flees from gandalf. iirc, gandalf stated that, in terms of power, he and the moria balrog are equals, so the fact that the balrog ran when he lost his fire seems to indicate, to me, at least, that they are weakened when the flames are extinguished. maybe there could be something like that in the game, like maybe if its raining, the balrogs become significantly weaker?
Like a nasty debuff that they can't heal without returning to one of their buildings? That's a serious drawback... and I don't think it should make them weak enough to flee from units significantly weaker than themselves. But it's an interesting idea. Forcing them into standing, or better yet flowing, water does make sense as a good weakness, since Echthelion killed Gothmog using that same method to weaken him. It also dovetails with the fear of running water that orcs and other monsters of Morgoth have. And it could be a way to make them killable, while also making them one of the most powerful units in the game.
I have no clue how complex the 0A.D. game engine is going to be, or how feasible this sort of thing is.
By the way, was there any plans to give anyone access to Giant Eagles? They mainly only helped Gondolin in battle.
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You're welcome.
I can attach a document with everything I've collected so far, if somebody could tell me how to attach Word Docs to a post.sounds like a good idea to me. i was planning for the greeks to be set somewhere between the mycenean civilization and the death of alexander teh great
What I meant by late bronze age is during the Mycenaean civilization, not after it.
the time period is supposed to be ambiguous, more for simplicity than anything else, because some civilizations would become invalid if just one time was chosen: if i chose a middle ages time period for the norse and persians and christians, then the egyptians would be pretty much invalid. if i chose just an ancient time period, then the norse, christians, and aztecs become invalid. see the problem?Yeah, I agree it isn't really possible to make them all contemporary. I tried to think of a time, and it didn't work.
i was planning to derive from three major sources of mythology for the roman faction: legit roman deities that originated there, such as deified emperors, etruscan deities, and borrowed greek deities. the roman major gods are Quirinus (deified Romulus), Mithras (an etruscan god that was well-liked by the legionnaires), and Jupiter (aka Zeus, borrowed from the greeks)Mithras is not Etruscan. According to Wikipedia, ancients suggested that he came from Persia or Anatolia, and modern scholars think he was either Persian or a Roman invention. Most of the Greek gods, borrowed from Greek religion, were only grafted onto native Italian gods: Liber, Jupiter, Juno, Minerva, Mars, Vulcan, Venus, Neptune, Saturnus, and so on had a native existence before they were assimilated to Greek gods, but what they were like before that happened is poorly documented in surviving writings, and difficult to reconstruct.
as for certain aforementioned myth units, they too will go to just one culture instead of being officially repeated: harpies, minotaurs, and chimeras, for instance, will all be greek units, but the gryphons/griffins will be persian units, and the basilisk is planned to be a christian unit; im trying to fill in the more obscure ones first since theyre the ones that will really need it. as for arachne, she's kind of in as filler. invented myth units arent too far out there; AOM already did alot of that, like the prometheans, servants of oceanus, avengers, anubites, and war turtles. as long as they have some mythical basis, they qualify. for that matter, i plan for alot of the cro-magnon units to be based on prehistoric wildlife even though their pantheon is derived from the greek titansThere's no shortage of myth units to give the Greeks and Christians, don't worry about that. I've collected names and short descriptions for years. There's no need to make up things that have no basis in mythology. Didn't somebody mention that the point of this project would be to make it more accurate than AOM? Greeks can have Harpyies, Drakainai, Drakones, Satyroi, Kyklopes, Kentauroi, Bronze Bulls, Bronze Horses, Birds of Ares, Giant Boars, Gorgones, Seirenes, Amazons, Monokerata, Pterippoi, Neades, Lamiai, Empusai, Gigantes, Six-Armed Gigantes, Half-Bear Gigantes, Half-Serpent Gigantes, Golden Sheep, Griffin-Birds, Panther-Birds, and unique units like Khimaira, Kerberos, Krommyan Sow, Cretan Bull, Sphinx, Nemean Lion, Hydra, Talos, Orthros, Teumessian Fox, Minotauros, and Phoinix). See http://www.theoi.com/Bestiary.html and I can link to similar online bestiaries for Japan and Thailand as well.
Christians can have all manner of heraldic critters: out of my list those that look especially dangerous or useful include Alphyn, Amphiptere, Antalop, Basilisk, Bonnacon, Boreyne, Calopus, Caretyne, Cockatrice, Enfield, Enhydros, Hippogriff, Hippotayne, Jaculus, Keythong, Leucrocuta, Lincis, Lubolf, Muscaliet, Panther, Fire-Breathing Panther, Peryton, Phoenix (instead of giving it to the Greeks), Salamander, Scitalis, Seps, Unicorn, Vampire, Werewolf, Winged Lion (or give it to the Romans), Wivre, Wyrm, Wyvern, Yale, and Yppotryll. Add some ghosts, fireball-slinging black mages (a the cost of some divine favor!), and healing-and-buffing white mages. Maybe give them the Questing Beast, if they need it more than the Celts.
I honestly don't like the idea of making up stuff for cultures we know almost nothing about, like the Minoans or the European Cro-Magnons. I'd rather see effort put into using more of the huge variety and diversity of cultures and myths we have real evidence for. Some of them will require more research than what the internet can provide, but that's a question of how much effort anyone who decides to do this wants to put into it. Although... cavemen who summon prehistoric ice-age mammals could be cool.
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I like the idea of doing this, it sounds like it would be cool.
For time period, you can make the Egyptians late New Kingdom, and the Greeks late Bronze Age, which puts the Greeks during the time when most of their myths were set (and further differentiates them from whatever Iron Age Greeks 0AD will have). That would make Egyptians and Greeks contemporaneous.
The Mesoamericans would be tougher, since the Olmecs started around 1200 BC, and I don't know when the Celts and Norse became archaeologically recognizable culture groups. So another option would be to set it around 1000 BC, that allows the Egyptians, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Mesoamericans to be contemporary, and makes the Norse, Persians, and Celts more reasonable additions.
It would be neat to base the Romans off of the early Republic, before they started expanding, or even to bring in some Italic flavor from the Oscans, Sabines, and Umbrians.
Of course to some extent the time can be totally imaginary, since it is mythic, but having a good time period to base each culture off of would help keep them looking accurate instead of eclectically random.
For gaining power or favor from the gods.. oh, that makes it very difficult to use the Olmec, since their writing is undeciphered. Hm. Well, for the Greeks I'd use the 12 Olympians, and for the Egyptians I'd use the Re, Osiris, Isis, Set, Horus, Ptah, Nephthys, Anubis, Sakhmet, Hathor, Thoth, and maybe Geb, Nut, Shu, and Tefnut if you can think up what they do. Except I would try to use the actual Egyptian names for them. For some of those that I named there are linguistic reconstructions of how their names might have been pronounced in the Old Kingdom, and for all of them there's the possibility to use the standard transcription of their hieroglyphic names, instead of the Greek names I used for most of them in this post. Thus Re' or Re'u, Wesir, `Aset, Setekh or Sutekh (?), Her or Heru, Ptah, Nebet-hut, Inpu, Sekhmet, Hut-her or Hut-hert, Djehuty, Geb, Nut, Shu, Tefnut.
Concerning the North American and Pacific cultures, they should definitely be based off of individual cultures, not off of a mishmash of an enormous number of very different cultures in a whole continent or everything from Polynesia, New Guinea, Australia, the Philippines, and Micronesia combined. You can do this to some extent with Mesoamerica, which is a geographically limited group of related cultures with many customs, foods, buildings, weapons, and religious traits in common, but you can't do that with something as huge and diverse as North America, or "the Pacific." I'd say pick one culturally related part of North America, like "upper northwest coast" or "New England" or "southwest" or "Iroquois." For "the Pacific" I would say, pick something much more culturally related such as "southern Polynesia" or "northwest Australia" or "highland New Guinea" or "Filipinos." All of the Pacific is the equivalent of "all of Europe, Mesopotamia, India, and Russia mixed together" in terms of cultural and mythological diversity. In terms of linguistic diversity, New Guinea alone is probably the equivalent of all of North America.
Myth Units: The Harpies, Chimaera, Minotaur, Basilisks, and Griffins are all Greek, and in fact Griffins could also be available to Mesopotamians, Hittites, Persians, and Egyptians, since all of them had legends or images of them. They would look slightly different for each culture, in that case. If Griffins were only available to one culture, I would give them to the Mesopotamians. Also, the Harpies don't breathe fire, nor resemble lions, in any myth I've read. You might have them confused with Chimaera. Myth units that die could be summoned again from the underworld, but the whole orange powder thing is fantasy, not genuine Greek myth. I do like the idea that unique monsters (Minotaur, Chimaera, Cretan Bull, etc.) should be unique, one-at-a-time things. Arachne... I don't see her as a myth unit. She's just a woman who was changed into an ordinary spider. The Cyclopes could number as many as the Centaurs, since Polyphemos had many Cyclops neighbors.
Titans should NOT be a myth unit. While it's a common misconception spread by fantasy that they're giants or monsters, in Greek stories and beliefs they were gods, just like the Olympians. None of them except Rhea or Helios was important enough to be worth putting in the game, and even Helios had very little actual worship.
Having myth units granted by the gods seems a bit weird to me, because some monsters (such as Chimaera and Giants) are enemies of the gods, and some (such as Harpies, Cretan Bull, Klazomenaian Sow, Minotaur, and Centaurs) were sent by the gods to punish mortals, not to help them in battle.
Egyptians can have Akhu, Hierosphinxes, Kriosphinxes, Androsphinxes, Sagu, Setjau, and Set-animals, though I have no idea what they would do, only what they look like. Fire-breathing Uraei and dragons of many possible appearances are easier to figure out: they breathe fire.
Mesopotamians can have Sirrush, Humbaba, and so on. I have a list somewhere of the animal-like possibilities for each group that I could post, it would be very long though -- probably too long except as an attachment.
To Kimball: Where can I read about those Celtic mythic creatures, please? I'd like to learn more about them.
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I like the idea of the Nazgul switching modes better, and I agree with you that they should be able to re-spawn indefinitely. Probably they would start out mounted on horses, and you need to do something extra to find pterodactyls or whatever, corrupt them into giant nekkid things, and train the Nazgul to ride them, before the Wraiths can switch to flying mode. However, it would add more complexity to make the flying mounts separately kill-able.
For Balrogs, Tolkien wrote that there were "only three or at most seven." I'm quoting from memory, Morgoth's Ring I think, so my wording might be off. Therefore any number from 3 to 7 could be the maximum available, either at any one time or over the course of the game. The reason I could see letting them re-spawn is because, as non-bodied Maiar, they are not truly incarnates and can re-form new bodies, at least in theory. Morgoth and Sauron both eventually lost that ability, so maybe the Balrogs did as well. Actually, that's the only explanation I can think of they stayed "dead" after Echthelion and Glorfindel killed two of them.
(There were whole legions of Balrogs in the Lost Tales, maybe that's where you got that impression.)
There were also "Great Orcs," basically minor Maiar demons who chose to look like big, tough orcs, and couldn't ever really be killed, so they kept coming back for every battle. That's Tolkien's explanation for how some orc generals could live for centuries, and come back after "dying" in battle, when real orcs didn't live that long. Personally, I suspect that part of the reason orcs in general were so messed up is that these Great Orcs might have bred with them...
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I think a good way to handle that would be to deal with the reproduction issue. Orcs can reproduce at least as "fast" as elves, for whom pregnancy lasts 12 months and childhood lasts about 478 years. Presumably they can actually breed faster, considering their shorter lifespans, so I'd let them breed as fast as humans, or almost as fast. Come to think of it, slow breeding could provide a limitation for elf players, to offset their superior abilities compared to humans. Your soldiers are more dangerous and harder to kill, and require less food to survive, but it takes longer to get more of them. (The idea of breeding just to fuel a war sounds pretty horrible, but I know this is a game.)
Corrupted animals, such as wargs, can probably breed at a rate similar to what they were descended from, which should make most of them pretty quick breeders compared to humans. Making the first ones of any particular type should take longer, though, to reflect the time and effort needed to corrupt and mutate them in the first place. Same with Orcs, actually. Ick.
However, Dragons and Gaurhoth ("werewolves") should be slow breeders; the Silmarillion mentions that it takes a long time (decades or centuries) for dragons to reach maturity. Also, none of the ones that are born should be the equal of the originals who were "created" by putting demons directly into bodies, although I don't know how to model that in a game: maybe have two "levels" of dragons, a very slow-to-"create" primary dragon type, and a less powerful but relatively faster breeding type that you can't get until you have the first?
The time or resources it takes to build/create trolls could be based simply on how powerful they are and how much the developers want to limit them.
Balrogs are the simplest: there were only 7 at most, so you can limit the Dark Lord to having only 7 at one time, and impose some time limitation for how soon a Balrog can be re-formed after being "killed." (OK, so if TLA was going strictly by the lore they shouldn't be killed by just anybody, but this is a game. TLA could make up for that by letting them come back from the dead.)
And sorry I'm late, too.
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I like your resource ideas, although mithril should be extremely rare...
Until you got to the part about the Secret Fire. Eru has that and nobody else can touch or use it. This is an important point of the cosmology in the Silmarillion, which is a Christian work: only God can create life. When Aule tried, he ended up with mindless zombies. The dwarves had no souls, minds, or will until Eru took pity and supplied the missing parts.
Balrogs are fallen angels, and were created by Eru. The original Dragons and Gaurhoth were fallen angels possessing mutated animal bodies, which bodies they used to breed new (demon-blooded) generations. Stone-Trolls are fake life that lack the Secret Fire, which is why they turn to stone when exposed to sunlight. Orcs are twisted, mutated, and perhaps demon-blooded elves and/or humans. The bird-bat-pterodactyl things that Ringwraiths ride are mutated animals. Wargs are mutated wolves.
Allowing any player, whether they're playing a Dark Lord or his enemies, to use the Secret Fire to create life makes no sense in the setting, plus it's unnecessary. Raising an army from existing people, breeding more soldiers by combining the fertile ones you already have, and (for Dark Lords) mutating innocent animals into freakish monsters, ought to be enough.
On the other hand, LA could allow a totally different kind of resource: machines, or explosives, or whatever Sauron and Saruman used to break walls and so on. I don't really know Lord of the Rings well enough to be sure what it was, but I think there was something special that they had or used.
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After the Fall of Numenor, Sauron could never again take on a pleasing shape that would deceive anybody, in fact I think he may have been stuck in the form of a "Dark Lord" just as Morgoth was after the Darkening of Valinor.
In the battle at the end of the Second Age, Isildur cut the ring off of his hand, probably along with a finger, which shows that at the battle he was in a humanoid form. During the Third Age, Gollum described him as having hands.
The "lidless eye" in my opinion is not a physical form that he takes, it is a physical description of the telepathic experience of having him assault your mind through a palantir. Either that, or it's a description of what his eyes look like. Did anyone ever describe the lidless eye as disembodied, or give any other reason to assume it wasn't attached to a face? If the eye was extremely mesmerizing, or just compelled one to look at it, Frodo might not notice the rest of his face. Even dragons can do that.
Physically taking the form of a giant floating eyeball... what would be the use of this? He used his mind and power to search for the ring because it was a part of him, he didn't need to turn into an eyeball to do it, plus with his mind he could "see" in many directions at once, over the horizon, past obstructions, etc. He could use his mind to dominate his slaves, too. As a giant eyeball he'd have no hands, and he wouldn't fit in most rooms. He could probably get around the lack of a mouth using telepathy, but still. I just can't see it.
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I bought it. I haven't read through all of the whole thing cover to cover yet, but I can say more or less what it contains.
No Wanderings of Hurin, unfortunately. I guess that makes sense since this is supposed to be a translation of the Narn, not an anthology on the subject, but an epilogue would have been nice.
The texts in this book are generally more detailed than what appears in the Silmarillion, and complete from start to finish (unlike the fragmented treatment in the Unfinished Tales). It is not as detailed as a novel, in fact it is a bit less detailed than the Wanderings of Hurin.
Several passages are the same ones that appeared in Unfinished Tales or the Silmarillion. Several other passages are different, often longer, texts that have never been published before. There aren't any gigantic changes in the story, but there are some differences in details here and there, plus various new details. To my understanding, the newly published passages were written later than the corresponding texts in the Silmarillion, but I'm not sure about that.
Overall, I'd say that it is more accessible than the Unfinished Tales form and more detailed than the Silmarillion form, but I think it will only count as "new" material to the sort of people who read the History of Middle-Earth.
post-0 AD idea: mythology
in Game Modification
Posted · Edited by Aldandil
I'm just saying that you shouldn't need to "fill in" the myth units by making stuff up, it should be entirely possible to get them from the same culture as the mortal units, by doing research on the myths and stories of the culture.
My comment about dinosaurs and cryptids is just about my personal preference. Obviously, the Cro-Magnon/Neolithic units will have to be almost 100% made up.
Man oh man, I wish I could help out with 0AD, TLA, and the mods by coding or creating art. But neither of those is part of my skillset.