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Ayakashi

Faction: The Chinese

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Introduce this civ in the main game pls ! ^^ , good job

Hehe, this civ is about medieval China, I don't think that fits together.

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Ok noted! Will correct some of the names.

For the cavalry currently it has 1 light melee, one auxiliary melee, 1 champion melee and 1 melee/ranged hybrid. For now I'll replace the camel with a cataphract style unit instead, it was a left over from the old proposal that I never removed and so far I see no reliable info regarding any Gokturks serving under the Tang fighting on camels.

What other cultures & units would you suggest for auxiliaries?

As for that archer: I drew him that way because I wanted to obscure as little of the outfit as possible whilst showing the entire design of the quiver. If that bothers you I can always flip it over. But I'm reluctant because something about the flipped look slightly bothers me, probably due to my utterly incompetent lack of skills in what barely passes as drawing. Perhaps this guy is just left handed? (Does that mean a death sentence back then lol? :D)

Edited by Ayakashi

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Ok noted! Will correct some of the names.

For the cavalry currently it has 1 light melee, one auxiliary melee, 1 champion melee and 1 melee/ranged hybrid. For now I'll replace the camel with a cataphract style unit instead, it was a left over from the old proposal that I never removed and so far I see no reliable info regarding any Gokturks serving under the Tang fighting on camels.

What other cultures & units would you suggest for auxiliaries?

As for that archer: I drew him that way because I wanted to obscure as little of the outfit as possible whilst showing the entire design of the quiver. If that bothers you I can always flip it over. But I'm reluctant because something about the flipped look slightly bothers me, probably due to my utterly incompetent lack of skills in what barely passes as drawing. Perhaps this guy is just left handed? (Does that mean a death sentence back then lol? :D)

A Gokturk cataphract? :shocking:

AFAIK Uyghur were called to pacify the An Lu Shan rebellion, and Karluks were used (and betrayed the Tang) in Battle of Talas. Wang Xuan Ce (王玄策) 'requisitioned' a contingent of Tibetan troops to attack India.

Your drawing skills is very good :notworthy: ! Not sure about the dead sentence though. I would like to see some armour without the 'boob plates' too! (Will post some picture afterwards)

There's also MoDao I want to discuss~

Edited by wolflance

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Honestly I don't know a whole lot about Gokturk military but what's *allegedly their petroglyphs do depict some kind of armoured cavalry lancer :

gokturk_cav.jpg

*although whether if those were Gokturk or Tibetan is debated.

There's also this illustration I found (Not sure how accurate):

GokturkTurgisheasternTurktribesman.jpg

I like your suggestions on the additional factions. Do you have any suggestions on what kind of units they may use other than cavalry archers and heavy cavalry? I also now think the best way to implement all these auxiliary factions is to make it so that you may only use one per game, so that you won't have too many units and say: 5 kinds of cavalry archers lol! This will also make the player make more meaning choices and make each individual game more unique. But I think its cool how this system can make the Chinese faction as a means of bringing lesser known Asian cultures into the game.

Almost all statues and pictures of Tang Armour I saw features man boobs :D If you got good references of ones without by all means post them! This drawing only shows 3 early-mid game units and there are more to come. I intend to have a few very late game units wear 5 dynasties style armour which won't have boob plates.

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I will try to find info (preferably primary source picture) of the auxiliary troops. ATM I have both picture and textual description of the Tibetan troops, and some Nanzhao one...and Silla as well.

Note:

Auxiliary could include Nanzhao and Arabs as well.

EDIT 1: On MoDao

As for the MoDao (陌刀), I found out that the 3+ meter, double-edged version actually refers to a weapon called PaiRen (拍刃) or PaiDao (拍刀). Although the Chinese character is quite similar, there is nothing to suggest that PaiRen is related to MoDao.

On the other hand, both MoDao and YiDao (儀刀, ceremonial sword) were also called ChangDao (長刀).There are plenty of drawings of YiDaos in the Tang period art, all depicts two-handed, ring-pommel swords. MoDao *might* be the non-ceremonial version of the YiDao sword. This also reconcile with the fact that MoDao was sometimes compared to Han Dynasty ZhanmaJian —— it could even be the direct descendant of Han two-handed sword!

EDIT 2: On Auxiliary Troops

Was thinking instead of making unit for each ethnic auxiliary, we could instead opt for a more generalized 'Cultural group' approach. So instead of four different units for...say, Gokturk, Tiele, Uyghurs and Karluks, we have 'Turkic'.

So...Turkic, Koreans, maybe Arabs and Tibetans...possibly Nanzhao and Persians? (Just about all of these kingdoms/empires had fought against and/or defeated Tang at some point too......)

There's Khitan and Shiwei too, but I know practically nothing about these people...

Edited by wolflance

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Visual Reference Thread

Tang Army

Secondary Source

KVeOhQc.jpgSxCb9dJ.jpg

Dcu81Ot.jpg

Several non-boob plate armour of the Tang army, from "Army of Tang China".

Primary Source

rVwtbhD.jpg

Ly9On4m.jpgA general with unique (probably ceremonial) dragon head helmet.

Auxiliary

A Tang-period Tibetan warrior.

OjUzOLH.jpg

Oddly textual records describe the Tibetans as " both men and horse are encased in mail armour, so much so that only eyes are visible.". Tibetans fought primarily with swords, and they carry swords even on peace time. Even though they have armoured horse, they dismount to fight.

For most of their history the Tibetan was a strong empire that could and did challenge Tang on equal footing, so I am hesitate to list them as 'Auxilary'.

(More to come, when my connection is better)

Edited by wolflance

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I did think about having Tibetan mercenaries, but was reluctant due to the fact that they were a rival/often enemy empire that could've been their own proper faction if the faction list is still open to change. But now that you mentioned Wang Xuan Ce It feels justified! Thanks for the suggestions!

Do you have any pictures of good replicas, drawings or even original Tang or Five dynasties era shields? I'm having a hard time trying to find good ones! The ones from "Army of Tang China" are either Sui or looks really bad (That one with 4 grids), even though they do have a few drawings copied from primary sources. I would like to see a nice detailed depiction if possible.

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These are all I have atm...I believe you already seen these pictures from the Osprey or Montvert books.

liHy143m.jpg This one still shows elements of earlier dynasty shield (such as Han ~ N&S dynasties)

Bg4yV74m.jpg

SWL5rg4m.jpg

Chinese infantry shield of this period are very long, slender shield, either pentagonal or hexagonal.

I believe Korea has some surviving or replica hexagonal long shield. Similar hexagonal shields are also commonly used by various Polynesian tribes such as the Dayak (although decoration motif will be very different).

e2kqKMIm.jpg

Cavalry use round shield instead. There are four very visible studs on the shield, similar to later period Mongol, Islamic, Eastern Europe and Indian round shields.

Edited by wolflance

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First Batch of concept art done! Although honestly I think it's a bit crap!

soldier_set_01_by_robonobi-d8vsrox.jpg

Please note that the archer's bow and quiver are on the wrong side. I chose not to flip him coz it looked weird. Which demonstrates my inept abilities in illustration.

These represent early game archer, spearman and shock trooper units. The colouring is done if the player colour is blue. Also note that the spearman and shock trooper would have shields and the shock trooper may also use axes and maces (they get random short weapons after popping out of barracks). I will do concept arts of equipments and the rest of the units and buildings too.

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I should have notice that earlier :wallbash: but the straight, ringless sword...so called "Tang Dao", is considered by many to be ahistorical a.l.a. ninjato. It is pretty much 'invented' by the sword manufacturer to hop a ride on the katana craze bandwagon.

M6YvqpA.jpg

Non-historical.

RLIsark.jpg

Historical.

Although ringless swords did start to appear during Tang period, those swords are more reminiscent of Sassanian swords than Japanese swords.

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It's cool man, calm down, I based it on what I found on the Thomas Chen website, which are a from a Japanese collection dated to the 8th century.

The blade:

post-15249-0-79668300-1433352537_thumb.j

The fixings:

post-15249-0-28023700-1433352556_thumb.j

post-15249-0-33459200-1433352570_thumb.j

Link to the original site: http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom.html

So IMHO, that sword in you top pic ain't too far off.

Ring pommel swords like your second pic are more of a thing of the Sui Dynasty. They had them during the early years of the Tang but AFAIK were phased out by early/mid Tang.

Edited by Ayakashi

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Ring-pommel was still widely prevalent throughout the Tang period, and commonly show up in Tang artwork, sculpture and lokapala. That 8th century sword you posted is actually Jian-like, making it more reminiscent of a Sassanian sword than a Chinese one.

Jreovp9m.jpg

tTlPDpe.jpg

Besides, whether this sword is actually imported/gifted from China is disputed. It could be a "Japanese sword blade with Chinese decorative motif", or "China-imported blade with local (Japanese) made fitting & scabbard".

UkEDXT2.jpg

Yex2AD1l.jpg

Two Sassanian swords for your reference. Note the spear point blade tip (instead of the so-called "tanto point"), "two ear" style scabbard, and the small "curves" on the grip.

Of course, Sassanian influence )especially scabbard) started to show up on Chinese daos as early as N&S Dynasties period, so it is normal that such influence eventually find its way to Japan.

The "non-historical" part that I directed at modern sword manufacturer refers to the mix-and-match of several different (vaguely Chinese/oriental) style of different swords from (roughly) the same period,

Edited by wolflance

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Oops my bad, I take back what I said regarding Tang era ring pummel daos! I was typing from memory although I did read up from somewhere that ring pummel daos were being replaced by late Tang (I didn't want them to look out of place during late game). Furthermore, that image you posted with the ring pummel may well come from the Sui dynasty, as with every image of real (as in archaeological finds of) swords of that general style that I have seen. Another reason is that the images from the Japanese collection are the best preserved examples of Tang era Chinese swords I am aware of. Even if they were Japanese there was little difference between Japanese and Chinese sword designs in this era AFAIK. Though I am more inclined to trust the 'official' account of what they are unless proven otherwise.

I plan to do a concept for each individual unit and building (not this month, too busy with work). In the future I'll probably make the designs of the swords on citizen soldiers either a simple ring pummel design like in the paintings or something along this line:

post-15249-0-03060000-1433794492_thumb.j

For swords on champion units and heroes I will base them on the ones from the Japanese collection. I think that will make a nice compromise?

Edited by Ayakashi

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@Ayakashi

Ring-pommel dao was still widely used during the Song period, so I doubt that It was replaced during the Tang Dynasty. 'Supplemented' would be a much better word here.

I do not oppose the inclusion of non-ring pommel swords though. Just that we must be wary of the 'Ninjato' Tang swords that flood the replica market. I will try to find more info about the Japanese preserved Sui-Tang swords, although as far as I am aware all but three are either

(i) from Sui Dynasty (i.e. The 七星劍 'Seven star sword', 丙子椒林剑, and 水龍劍)

(ii) Without mounting (七星剑 & 丙子椒林剑)

(iii) had hilt and mountings from later period (i.e. The 水龍劍 or 'Water Dragon Sword')

(iv) made locally but decorated with 'imitation Chinese' style.

Edited by wolflance

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Here are all Chinese Sui-Tang swords currently preserved in Japan that I could find:

Sui Period sword:

Hhglzm1m.jpg

The '水龍劍' or 'Water Dragon Sword'. The hilt mounting is from later period.

rFKvIxFm.jpg
丙子禦林, only the blade survived.
HJbPB0Wm.jpg
'七星劍' or 'Seven Star Sword'. Only the blade survived.
Tang Period sword

6e7yetom.jpg

吴竹鞘御杖刀. This one is probably the more representative of the Tang Dynasty 'non-ring pommel' sword. I think some Tang period murals showed similar sword mounting. The name indicates that it is a swordstick.

tTlPDpe.jpg

金銀鈿荘唐大刀. This Tang Dynasty sword shows a lot of Sassanian influence. It is actually a backsword, to be precise (only the sword point is double-edged).

3aGIK9qm.jpg

Another sword with the same name but has a more traditional "tanto point".

8E9dN9vm.jpg

金銀平脫莊橫刀. More dagger than sword though.

zeNAED8m.jpg

銀飾寶石唐短刀.Twin daggers.

Other allegedly Tang Dynasty sword:

Y1ls5bw.jpg

金銅黒漆装唐直刀. The gigantic 256cm sword, claimed by some to be a Tang Dynasty sword as well, although unverified.

Its real name is 布都御魂 or 韴霊剣 or Futsu-no-mitama. Yes, it is THAT Futsu-no-mitama from the famous Japanese mythology, welded by Japanese warrior god Takemikazuchi (although it is not the only sword to bear that name, just like there are many so-called 'Lance of Longinus'). Such a famous weapon would be very unlikely to came from China.

aBTO88Nm.jpg

銅裝黑漆大刀. This is a fully Japanese sword made "in Chinese style".

So, our reference pool is surprisingly small - our four Tang Dynasty swords (plus a pair of daggers) have very few in common with each other - different blade profile, different scabbard, different guard (and no guard in the case of 吴竹鞘御杖刀) and different hilt.

Edited by wolflance

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Of course, all these types of sword show up in Tang period artwork:

fGPyMT9.jpg

Ring-pommel sword.

qxpPzrt.jpg

The "Swordstick"

d6ZzZrn.jpg

LgL3VR6.jpg

The "Sassanian-influenced" style.

On the other hand, the round/square & flat tsuba-like guard are not present in historical artworks.

3DdCsB2l.jpg

And something with exaggerated guard like this is DEFINITELY not historical.

Edited by wolflance

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HGZaPB3.jpg

Reconstructed Tang Dynasty armoured cavalry. Yes, no boob-plate(s).

For more picture, visit my Han period reconstruction clothing thread at ROTE section.

Edited by wolflance

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A historically accurate "Chinese"-civ based on how they are comestically portrayed should be a Tang Dynasty-sort of Chinese, that is...

-Hyper expansionist (extending into Iran and Afghanistan) and basically limited only by extreme terrain

-Relatively highy efficient bureaucracy

-Advanced tech

-Advanced agriculture

-Huge populación

-Bonus against all Turk enemies

 

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