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Wonder give passively ressource income, and in the past gave a little amount of maximal pop. Today you have to build it with a lot of builder and they waste ressource for 2Min tech, instead spam champ. It useless in basic game, only useful on long game for average player. It only good for win by wonder in funny game. And have a big temple -- Many old technologies have already been removed, and the game is evolving. Maybe we can come up with something better.

We've already given the Maurya some interesting features, like the fish effect. Many ancient civilizations were strong in BOW. So I vote for not making more differentiation on such a basic unit. Furthermore, if we boost champion archers too much (I find them decent in TG pocket but a bit below the others), we'll be rewarding people without skills. Their strength is their range. This is invaluable in stats, like a unit's speed.

I forgot that the Macedonian champion was Hoplite style and not a phalanx, I must be thinking of the Ptolemaic champion.

I think the Macedonian spear champions are quite useful at countering enemy melee Cavs. The upgrade into silver shield is expensive but worth it. Overall, Macedonian civ is a bit op right now, but is reasonable. They are better than other civs because of the diversity: you can play any strategy you want. If your eco is failing, you can save yourself with Mercs. However, I am still more of a Celtics player than a Macedonian player

Okay, but how do you know who I'm replying to? Archers along with ranged cavalry are very good units for hunting villagers.

@Classic-Burger, the only reason Archers are good in AoE games is because they are faster than infantry. AoE also has no latency and faster atack animations, which allows hit-and-run micro. EDIT: You don't need to full quote people all tha time, and you don't have to fully quote the last reply either.

Other technologies are also needed. We'd need to nerf the default LoS and then add two or three techs for buildings and units.

The game also needs a good archer rush. I mentioned this in another post.

I. E. Conscription. For Glorious Expansion tech. Why should we delete these techs? GE is one of the only reasons you build a Wonder, and it allows you to have more units. Conscription decreases batch training time, nothing complicated there. Please, don't delete techs that have a purpose just because someone finds them "boring".

Yeah, Its unfortunate that archers need the archery tradition tech to feel at all worthwhile, which leaves carth archers in a terrible spot. At some point I think we need to do more to differentiate ranged units (more than just range+damage).

Thank you @real_tabasco_sauce for your work! Yes, I missed the onager population cost. Regarding the capture strength, I hovered over the structure tree of mercenaries and it showed 2.5, but yes, their building and the units itself show the correct value. Great to see a discussing evolving. @DakaraCurrently, the consensus is that archers are too weak, no? @ffm2showed statistics, that archer civs are not often taken and they perform badly. So the question is how to buff them. I agree, a careful approach is better. Maybe testing in the community mod is best.

Kushites need improve their archers because history matter and gameplay-wise.

Hello @ProPlayer thank you for compiling this list of balancing suggestions! I agree with a lot of them. I think I'll go ahead and make the PR for the han changes. They are currently 3 pop, like catapults. Also, ranked up units do have higher capture attack. GIVE THEM a counter siege unit X5 PLEASEEEEEE No, it's civil building.

Athenians Anyway theses wall suck because we lost the property of wall in gaia territory except let a hole for cross, you can't control the door. Nothing to add, you right, but why this kind of building cost METAL? they should cost stone and wood. Britons No opinion, but i vote for a upgrade tech for dogs. With expensive cost in P3 600 food 600 metal. They pop level max then. Carthaginians If we implement this technology, it will become indispensable. And I don't think that's good. For example, if we use stone, it slows down the various game options available for Carthage (slinger mercenaries or stable/barack spam). Perhaps we could come up with a different idea? For example, after 12 civilian constructions, the technology becomes free (same mechanism as the technology where you need three traders to harvest from allies). Gauls Bonuses Suggestion: Nerf eco bonuses (similar to Ptolemies, who pay with slower build times). Lets go Kushites Option 1 is legit Good idea to give a little advantage for compensate the building cost.. need a maurya as ally I don't understand his bonus for reduce the cost of same units( what unit it is??), i think the healer reduction is interesting (even if we don't use a lot, it should work on briton heroe healer!) They have 2 heroes ok so its fine Ptolemies +1 ; / think its a big up of ptol but thye need something to pump them. Let's try it. But could be (win time for will to fight or build wonder in some mod of game), but their P3 is very stone dependant (and it slingers civ..) so they need something for deal with other civ Romans Agree it not balance, it should't convert alive unit, just change the next unit. Onagre is not already 3? Spartans Agree, and delete the malus on training time skirmish? General Balance Capture System Currently: Large houses = 550, small houses = 500 (small houses are OP). Suggestion: Large = 550, Small = 350. it already the case, they have 4 capture instead 2,5 no? Theses units don't have capture attack.. it why. And it the reason i don't like siege building, easy to loose it, it was funnier when siege was train in fortress. Disagree, we should have some common rules, infantery champ = 5 capture attack. Marines have also 5 and they are cheap. - I prefer we delete this tech Little clarity, no fun, we don't know exactly what it brings, some civs have it some don't have it, so we might as well encourage having more buildings. Rome have alreayd a little bonus So no opinion This building hasn't found much use. We have no idea how much extra space we'll end up with. It could be either OP in some cases or completely unnecessary. This is a big topic. Previously, melee units were just cannon fodder to receive hits. But we realized they should be good in infantry combat too. Without more talk we can't change something. Disagree, i think it normal they are expensive. Have quality should be expensiver than have quantity. If archers become better, all META can change, take care Melee unit received a lot of buff, maybe we can have a tech for increase the speed of upgrade unit archer? Why not Disagree, i prefer people train healer or micro the low life unit. Disagree, annoying turtle Why not This tech afford a really uninteresting mechanic. let's delete it. Until we find a better way to balance this building The only funny thing is garnison 50 unit. Barter Suggestion: +1 Please don't add tech in market ahah Siege Techs Siege already op. don't up them

Hello @ProPlayer thank you for compiling this list of balancing suggestions! I agree with a lot of them. I think I'll go ahead and make the PR for the han changes. They are currently 3 pop, like catapults. Also, ranked up units do have higher capture attack. On clubmen, a lot of their utility is invalidated by the current capture balance, so I'd hesitate to give them so much speed. How do people feel about replacing the building damage increase per age with this? I could go either way.

Good observation with the pikes. @Seleucidsyou are Macedon player, feedback about this.

Balance Suggestions (Civ by Civ & General) Athenians Long Wall Tech Currently: Available only in P3, researched at the Council (60s). In practice, this means it’s not available until ~min 14–15, which makes walls in neutral territory before min 16 unrealistic. Suggestion: Available in P2 (at Civic Center or Market). Cost: 400 stone → 150 stone. Research time: 60s → 25s. Gymnasium Cost Question: Why is it cheaper than Han’s Academy or the Syssition? Suggestion: If not a civ bonus, increase cost to 150 stone + 150 metal. Britons Dogs Currently: Stronger side. Suggestion: Hack damage: 7 → 6.5. Consider armor upgrade tech (P2 or P3). Carthaginians Colonization Tech Currently: Hardly used; 200 metal in P1/P2 is too costly, and in P3 houses are usually already built. Suggestion: Cost 200 wood + 200 metal → 200 wood + 150 stone, available in P2. Gauls Bonuses Current advantages: 15% reduced forge costs. Additional farm tech. Eco hero. Small houses. Faster structure build time (huge eco advantage). Wide spectrum of champions (very flexible). Suggestion: Nerf eco bonuses (similar to Ptolemies, who pay with slower build times). Reduce capture value of small houses. Fanatics Currently: Same attack as spear champs, but less armor. Faster than spear champs. Stronger than metal spear champs in most situations (except 1v1 vs other infantry champs). Suggestion: Similar treatment as Persian infantry champs - If kept cheap, nerf attack (not only armor). Keep cost as is, and keep them in P2 for strategic diversity. Han Skipped (already reworked in community mod). Kushites Clubmen Currently: 60 metal but very weak (especially armor). Suggestion: Option 1: Hack armor 19% → 27%. Option 2 (preferred): Speed 9.5 → 11. Temple Guard Champions Currently: Limited by stone cost of temples (hard to mass more than 1–2). Suggestion: Napatan temple guard build time 15s → 10s. Elephant Hero Bonus Currently: Awkward to use effectively. Ptolemies Currently: P3 techs are often already researched; civ plays slowly. Suggestion: Allow Library in P2. Romans Marian Reforms Currently: Very strong in 1v1, potentially stronger than will to fight. Suggestion: Nerf. Siege Population Cost Currently: Catapult = 3 pop Bolt shooter = 2 pop Onager = 6 pop Onagers are cheap but not massable, while bolts outperform them in large numbers. Suggestion: Onager population 6 → 4. Spartans Syssition Cost Currently: Awkward in P1 (similar to the Kushite pyramid in the past). Leaves 50 metal if eco tech (100 metal) is researched, blocking champion production. Suggestion: Cost 150 stone + 150 metal → 200 stone + 100 metal. Krypteia Tech Currently: Located in champion building; awkward for rush/all-in. Suggestion: Move tech to Syssition, reduce research time 50s → 40s. General Balance Capture System Currently: Large houses = 550, small houses = 500 (small houses are OP). Suggestion: Large = 550, Small = 350. Suggestion: Units which have more experience or higher rank, like mercenaries or Skiritai should have higher capture strength. Elephant stables and arsenals are considerably too easy to capture when garrisoned. Can it be that 1 ram or 1 elephant only count as a single unit for capture point regeneration? Fanatics & Immortals Capture value: 5 → 3.5 (since they are cheaper/faster). Conscription Cost: 500 food → 400 food. Availability: P2. Theatron Currently: More expensive than fort, longer build, easy to capture, rarely used. Suggestion: Cost = 200 wood + 400 stone, Build time = 300s. Spear & Pike Champions (except fanatics) Currently: Rarely used in high-level play (1400+). Example: Athenians prefer sword champs (earlier + dock training). Seleucids prefer sword champs over pikes. Suggestion: Clearer role differentiation. Strong cav counter (e.g. 4× vs cav instead of 2.5 x). Increase armor for pike and spear champions. Tower Techs Currently: Too expensive (600–750 resources each). Making more towers instead is considerably cheaper. Suggestion: Crenellation = 200 stone + 200 metal. Arrow shooters = 250 wood + 200 metal. Sturdy foundations = 350 stone. Archers Currently: Weak compared to other ranged. Suggestion: Slight buff (5-10%) to stats or Archery Training tech. Elephants Currently: Not viable or not often seen in Pro 1x1 or TG for Kush, Ptolemies, Seleucids (only used with Mauryas, since stables are available in P2). Suggestion: Kushites: Elephant Stables in P2. Cost: 200 wood + 200 stone → 250–275 wood + 100 stone. Battlefield Medicine Currently: Costs 1000 food + 250 metal; applies only to idle units (not walking). Unused. Suggestion: Cost 1000f → 250f. Or regeneration +1 instead of +0.5. Aura Buildings Iberian Monument: 100 stone + 100 metal, P2, +20% dmg, 120s build. Kushite Pyramid: 450 stone + 150 metal, P3, 300s build. Suggestion: Kushite Pyramid → 200s build, 200 stone + 100 metal. Civic Center Balanced in P1, weak in P3. Suggestion: Increase attack in P3. Or allow forge arrow techs to apply to buildings. Ships Currently: Ram ships one-shot fishing ships → water battles snowball. Suggestion: Give fishing ships more armor (not one-shot). Reduce ram attack frequency. Wonders Glorious Expansion Tech Research time: 120s → 60s (since wonder itself is slow to build). Barter Suggestion: Decrease efficiency by 10%. Add tech: +15% barter efficiency, cost = 500 metal, 50s research. Siege Techs Currently: Extremely expensive. +25% health = 600 metal. -20% production = 600 wood. +25% attack = 800 wood + 500 metal. -40% unpack time = 800 food. Suggestion: Reduce costs by 50%. These are just suggestions, and I’m curious to see what other experienced players think. Do you agree with some of these changes? Are there better alternatives? Looking forward to hearing perspectives from fellow 1400+ players.

Towers blocked by houses and palisade. Watchtower just below edge of tower to see incoming attacks. Barracks near towers. My usual playbook.

I think if players play Sparta as only ecobot it gets boring. But if you play super aggressive, pushing early with Spartiates and Skiritai then it becomes fun, cav too, Atleast in my opinion.

I see, I was under the impression it stood for serious, while /j was joke.

I see, I didn't realise. But if you've seen me play, then you will know that was hardly my usual level of player, or I'd atleast like to think so. But I've seen Valihrant beat Borg same strat while being Kushites. So I don't think its broken. You should also try playing it, it gets harder to use and if your opponent is half decent and scouts you he will anticipate it.

Oh someone just mentioned that /s stands for sarcasm and not serious. Sorry.

If every civ has access to most units and at least their counters, then this would be a lot less of an issue. In A27 we are seeing the civ rankings again (no rules TG): Brokenly OP tier: Macedonians, Gauls Strong tier: Seleucids, Persians, Ptolemies Medium tier: Romans, Kushites Ok tier: Brits, Athenians, Han, Carthage, Spartans Weak tier: Mauryas Why? Champs cavs. The top ranking civs all have champ cavs. But if we ban that, we get: Brokenly OP: Gauls (because fanatics) Strong: Brits, Athenians, Romans, Ptolemies, Macedonians So we see fanatics are still OP. If we remove that too, then Gauls will just drop down to the strong tier. Spartans is always lower down so having this extra powerful unit is not a big issue.

A sneak peak at the next OP champion unit after Spartiates get nerfed to death.

100 slingers do the job if no defense army