Vinme vs Vali mayu v carth reply to commentary

[vinme]

  I wanna reply to a few points of the commentary.

1.early stable being too expensive and not giving value because you cant sustain production from it:

i believe since mayu gets extreme excess of extras, per pop this gives much more production value(eco rate), in the same way one gets earlier barack when extra several berries, compared to no extras, per 1 woman, you get 2-3x eco on food(berries vs farms), ie if to rly simplify, 30 pop with berries being used gives far more production than 30 pop with farms.

this being said i was doing the early stable strat for the first time from what i recall, so i did it too early, perhaps by 30-40 sec by either starting it early, or putting too many units on it, which + other eco mistakes caused idle time.

 

2."must attack when making that many cav early":

i dont see making 6 women, then 5 cav (20 pop, 5 cav) as super early and unnaceptably costly to sustain without immediate agression/rush, especially as mayu hunting being a detrement.

i dont agree and i dont see why you feel eco-ing with cav is bad for eco, or puts you behind When there is hunt availible, and one is adding onto those cav(increasing numbers initiative to later rush) why would you feel only offense is the option?

yes i know cav very slightly more expensive for eco, when using to gather hunt, as opposed to making women for berries but given that i was then planning to add on more cav, the cav gathering hunt is only option for large mass(15+).

Important point being of course, that enemy doesnt scout you, once they do scout you immediately initiate attack not to lose initiative.

Point of rush ofc is to apply stress drastic enough to break the enemies adaptive qualities(ie better attack with 5 cav enemy hasnt scouted, than 15 cav enemy scouted u making 1-2 min ago and had plenty of time to prepare, make men/tower/what have you.)

The whole point of mayu, i maximally utilize, for as long a time as allowed, taking as much netural as possible, or viable. with your rhetoric(go immediately, hunting is wasteful of time more than is benefitial via res accrual or otherwise unless post agression, or with a few while rushing), mayu would be mostly useless(still usable tho), you are criticizing the very viability of ele, given if i shouldnt use neutral hunt, and mass with it, thats the main point of op-ness of mayu negated, and if you think merely hunting AFTER rush is the only option, or post agression, with not all cav availible this makes no sense as you are decimating the profit potential of the mayu advantage, by merely using it mildly, partially and post key benefit window timeframe(after u attack, not b4 to mass up the attack force via neutralhunt i mean), basically eating crumbs and throwing away the sandwich.

3. The point about me being able to send 5 cav and force ur woodline to retreat, which you said was better than "idling" or implied half-assing of a rush:

n1 i didnt have location of ur woodline scouted, so i couldnt attack you there immediately, directly, with ease or without some delay of going around the wrong way 50%, etc

n2 even if i find the woodline, 5 cav most likely wont do the damage you were describing, in nash equilibreum(both sides playing perfect)

you would most likely retreat for 2-3sec , giving enough time for ur cav to rejoin your 4 men, now it being 5v5 with 2 archer 2 spear 1 cav vs 5 cav

realistically, as it often does it would end up in spearmen being exchanged for cav, as spear(s) get close to cav the 5cav side retreats back, spears die off with 1/2 cav dying too, all rest(2arch/cav) get into cc, and ofc while after all this happens maybe your cc has 10-15 more sec left to get the next cav/inf batch out(2-3 or 4), so no potential of houses/storehouse being captured, ofc also 2archers defend(deterrent) well vs such things via harass, and easily retreating to cc if chased.

ofc if reality were as you had described, that 5 cav could easily win in perfect play vs 4spear/archer infsize every1 would do it every time.

im not saying this strat doesnt work, im saying most likely it wouldnt work against a player of your skill level, or even a 2000 or 1900.

but the actuality is my 5 cav cost a great deal of res(750+far higher traintime), walktime/searching for target.

the fact that i made stable for the purpouses of training units at a much faster rate, with 2 prod buildings, relying on heightened eco from extras meant i HAD to hunt with 5 cav, had i sent them sr8 to you as you said wouldve been best, id have no production, as happened because of my misplays multiple times during the game(not sending women to berries/getting baskets on time, not having some cav hunt(1-2 or injured ones), many more i forget.

The mild delay for ur wood women to walk to ccwood, and then back to woodline, while ur men fight me off(equal unitcost res exchange at best for me 200/200 or so), and reinforcements get trained isnt worth my 750 investment that i got an equal exchange on + lost all initiative as now u know my state and that i can make more cav afterwards, and uve made more military(cav/inf).

Even worse if i wasnt mayu, and generally just atacked with 5cav(can be done with any javcav civ ofc) now i have no targets, my cav are guranteed value drain/burden/lost investment because you have the info, and will surely adapt with ease and close off all chance of me getting value(in perfect play ofc, which isnt unrealistic or unreasonable, jav cav are simple to counter and extremely familiar to all players)

4. point about either attacking all in, or ecoing all in, no half assing(i completely agree with sentiment ofc, you cant have your cake and eat it too, point of an action is to make a sacrifice in one avenue while overloading in a specific avenue, far above your enemies level as to get initiative, a snowball effect(geometric progression)result with a linear investment/sacrifice) ex 10 vs 15, 5 arent left alive, more like 8-9.

with gathering hunt, 24/7 as long as ur cav are employed in eco you dont have any gameending, or improper play level, real severe drain on eco compared to the opponent, you dont at all fall behind(at least pre enemy starting to make men as carth, for minerals, but i play carth so i know generally at least 20 women are made, which tells me the timing of a general build order) and based on how long he lets you mass, without scouting you, and thereby being unable to prevent/counter you actually get more insane initiative, more and more so the longer you "waste time", as you said when you were dissaproving of me attacking at such a late stage as min 3.05.

the future potential of a guranteed win lets say 20 cav vs 7 men or something, outweights the 100-300 res worth of loss in eco value stalling the immediate option to attack for a few min.

not even fully speaking of the boost in later advantage that having extras untouched in ur base, compared to enemy who used them up, while u were draining midextras gives.

5. split units, 5/4 bad, better to go all together.

while i generally agree with this sentiment;

I do know it was my mistake, needed to scout woodline with 2 cav harass far ahead of the attack and forgot.

I had just improvised on the spot, given unit positions of mine, and walktime/initiative wasteage that would come from me organizing them into a single group, also keeping in mind the 50% chance of huge time waste since hadnt scouted yet, and this way cav could find berries sooner if split apart, engage sooner, stall eco sooner at least with taunt/harass. this was not pre-planned, i also presumed that they could reconnect at behind, after the berry harass but afterwards decided against it having seen your numbers and knowing attacking further was pointless with 8 cav after scuiciding 1 cav+bit of dmg incured on the rest.

i saw you scouted me and thereby had to attack immediately planning to not let you make men, thats why i didnt have the time to scout you, already having forgotten to do so beforehand.

It did work quite well, my on the spot plan of distracting you with 5 cav, expecting you to focus on them with all men, and feel that your woodline was threatened, so that i could target your berries with rest, having scouted enough area to know where id find the berries at(at the back, front was scouted. 2 women dead, 1 cav dying was purely my micro mistake of idling them too long under line of fire, and 2 was the bare minimum i shouldve been able to kill, bad execution, not bad strategy, no men wouldve been in cc when you see woodline being cavrushed, youd bring all in, to get most optimal kd vs 5 and + not have me add in more and win vs ur 90-95%, while few were in cc for no reason.

6. keep in mind that this isnt an "ALL IN" as you state in title of your video

i understand given last 2 or maybe 3 plays vs you, of same interesting setup carth. vs mayu. you would think that this would be an all in, since maybe 2/3 or 3/3 of the previous plays were all ins, and for all of them you thought they were, having not watched any replays and simply inferred.

i woudnt call making 6 women, and then making even more women along the way also, an all in, which also gives me slight leeway in terms of few mins of delay or flexibility room as to how i act, as opposed to str8 0 women/men train, allcav b4 atack, keep only 8 workers on eco type build.

i had maybe 17 women or so at some point, when 15 cav were attacking(and scuiciding 1+dmg+scuiciding position/engage which cost me the game, as had many other instances i failed, for example another being right after, where ur spearmen had a lot of time needed to come, and i was far ahead in numbers, retreated cav for no reason, letting u kill of my spearmen/attack archers).

as long as i have hunt to gather, it have 0 forced all in only option move so the strat itself isnt an all in rush nessesarily.

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by vinme