my basic feedback

[WorldofBay]

i recently downloaded this game and now i got some very basic feedback. let's start with the positive site:

- i really like the way you went with traders - it is a good way to fill a ressource shortage of the map and to avoid being forced to basic units after long exhaustive battles
- this game continues when the player dies - i miss that in so many games, big THANKS that you allow that!
- standard military units being normal workers is a great thing, in so many games military will just stand around useless until the fight, here it can do something and also has a specific purpose being the military buildings

however there is stuff that i dislike:

- rams are too strong, they can be used against melee units too much, uncovered rams should be a big loss but currently they still get their cost worth if they just fight back, also an uncovered ram can still take down the base because it takes so long to kill it -> melee attacks should deal more damage to rams and rams should deal less damage to units or get a (high) chance to miss them as you wouldn't just stand still in front of a ram to get hit by it.
- pathfinding is bad and very CPU-heavy from my experience. i had a game with isthmuses barely wide enough for a small building. there was ore on it, so i built a storehouse there. although my units could pass the storehouse even two at once from now on every time i wouldn't microguide them around they would take a very long path through rival teritory to the other side.
later both remaining AI did the mistake of buiding a building on an isthmus on their trade route and although the traders could move around they stopped at the building creating a massive traffic jam for the rest of the game where nobody could get past and that made the game go down to unplayable 2 fps, obviously due to heavy pathfinding load because those weren't that many units.
- one big problem i have about this game (and about any other strategy game i met so far) is that the AI cheats. i'm not talking about income bonuses, that is totally acceptabe balancing. i'm talking about the AI knowing everything about the map without exploring it. this makes the whole concept of an undiscovered map in singleplayer ridiculous as it only ever affects the player. a good ai can only do the same the player can do in that same situation and it can only know the same the player knows in that same situation. a good ai gets its strength through the huge speed and remembrance bonus it has over a human -> it commands units faster towards a threat, never forgets a unit it sent somewhere, knows immediately what counter to build, knows every damaged building, never misses that apple tree inside a forest et cetera. an AI has no need to cheat and it shouldn't do so.
- last point is game setup. i recently found out about the map danuvius. that map is parted in half by a river, so i wante to play a good old team game 4v4 on that map. instead of putting one team on either side the setup split both teams in half and scattered them in random order 2-2 on each side. i first thought it might be starting positions, so i switched my teammates that landed on the wrong side with the opponents on my side, but on the nest start it was exactly the same, 2-2 on each side. whoever thought that this was a good idea, please tell me, what is the purpose of a parted map if i can't use it for a team game??

[elexis]

The player positions on random maps are sorted per team and I cannot reproduce this issue. Please provide a replay where they aren't.

The other issues, other than the ram balance, are confirmed to be well known issues that will most likely remain unsolved for the next years.

[Astrid]

35 minutes ago, WorldofBay said:

i recently downloaded this game and now i got some very basic feedback. let's start with the positive site:

- i really like the way you went with traders - it is a good way to fill a ressource shortage of the map and to avoid being forced to basic units after long exhaustive battles
- this game continues when the player dies - i miss that in so many games, big THANKS that you allow that!
- standard military units being normal workers is a great thing, in so many games military will just stand around useless until the fight, here it can do something and also has a specific purpose being the military buildings

however there is stuff that i dislike:

- rams are too strong, they can be used against melee units too much, uncovered rams should be a big loss but currently they still get their cost worth if they just fight back, also an uncovered ram can still take down the base because it takes so long to kill it -> melee attacks should deal more damage to rams and rams should deal less damage to units or get a (high) chance to miss them as you wouldn't just stand still in front of a ram to get hit by it.
- pathfinding is bad and very CPU-heavy from my experience. i had a game with isthmuses barely wide enough for a small building. there was ore on it, so i built a storehouse there. although my units could pass the storehouse even two at once from now on every time i wouldn't microguide them around they would take a very long path through rival teritory to the other side.
later both remaining AI did the mistake of buiding a building on an isthmus on their trade route and although the traders could move around they stopped at the building creating a massive traffic jam for the rest of the game where nobody could get past and that made the game go down to unplayable 2 fps, obviously due to heavy pathfinding load because those weren't that many units.
- one big problem i have about this game (and about any other strategy game i met so far) is that the AI cheats. i'm not talking about income bonuses, that is totally acceptabe balancing. i'm talking about the AI knowing everything about the map without exploring it. this makes the whole concept of an undiscovered map in singleplayer ridiculous as it only ever affects the player. a good ai can only do the same the player can do in that same situation and it can only know the same the player knows in that same situation. a good ai gets its strength through the huge speed and remembrance bonus it has over a human -> it commands units faster towards a threat, never forgets a unit it sent somewhere, knows immediately what counter to build, knows every damaged building, never misses that apple tree inside a forest et cetera. an AI has no need to cheat and it shouldn't do so.
- last point is game setup. i recently found out about the map danuvius. that map is parted in half by a river, so i wante to play a good old team game 4v4 on that map. instead of putting one team on either side the setup split both teams in half and scattered them in random order 2-2 on each side. i first thought it might be starting positions, so i switched my teammates that landed on the wrong side with the opponents on my side, but on the nest start it was exactly the same, 2-2 on each side. whoever thought that this was a good idea, please tell me, what is the purpose of a parted map if i can't use it for a team game??

The solution to the battle rams being overpowered is to make a massive group of swordsmen,and they will take out the ram fast. every class has it's superior,and weakness. If your culture doesn't start with a swordsman I am sure you can train one through a mercenary camp. If you are playing a norse the axemen rule the rams. I am happy to hear your only complaints are small things that can be fixed,and I am happy that you love this game. I want this game to be loved by everyone because it is a great game

[WorldofBay]

50 minutes ago, elexis said:

The player positions on random maps are sorted per team and I cannot reproduce this issue. Please provide a replay where they aren't.

tick the "nomad" checkbox and they aren't sorted at all. i want to choose where to put my base and i don't want the head start feature of giving every civ a 5k ore mine, a 5k stone mine and bushes in their starting territory

i even got games with 5 civs on one side and 3 on the other. while that may be no problem on a land map it is stupid on a parted map.

[Guest]

Thats intended behavior on nomad settings. Player positions are decided completely on random.

There is no “nomad” setting which makes you spawn on a predefined place without a Civic Center. Atleast not yet.

[elexis]

On nomad,

• The most decisive factor is the CC placement.
  • Resources: I can't tell you how many games I lost because the enemy could place the CC immediately, had all four resources and could boom quickly while other players had to run around for a minute to get 3 of the resources and then is stuck for 5 minutes somewhere because of the missing fourth resource. Then you're rushed and it's over.
  • One often places the CC in very close proximity to the best opponent. This first match intereaction can already have settled defeat, it's not even funny. (Don't get me started on possible solutions to this, in particular since it differs per map)
• Startung units placement is entirely random as (-_-) mentioned.
  • Consequently the most important playerdecision after the CC placement is scouting the player distribution and developing and communicating a matchstrategy with the team as soon as possible to address the particularities of the player distribution. For example by having the safer player do economy boom and a "sling" (sending over resources to the player on the frontline).

Unusual player placement can be interesting to the ones who expect it:

• On Unknown Nomad, there was/is a river map too. It also yielded 5v3 distributions. Sometimes there is one player over the other side of the rest of the team. It is clear that this player is going to be attacked 3v1 soon. But this can be turned to an advantage. This player must receive additional resources from the other side of the river, should send a woman via a fishing ship possibly and have his alllies build a CC on the other side as soon as possible. If this player receives a lot of resources and allies support from ships, his mere territory presence will impede the enemy economy (gathering and trade). It can be turned into a wedge splitting the enemy in half.
• On River Archipelago without nomad, it's 50% chance that it's going to be "left vs. right" and 50% chance of "top vs bottom" when there are two teams - but the islands are always in north-south direction. So sometimes it ends up as a 2 * 2v2 on land, sometimes it's a 4v4 naval.
• We also like to play a Corsica vs. Sardinia 2v2v2v2 sometimes. It means there is a 2v2 on each of the two islands and the winners then fight against each other, like a little tourney.

It's planned to add a player placement setting to the gamesetup however. So one could chose whether it's grouped by team or not, or specifically opposing.