some idea about formations

[ProvencalLeGaullois]

when I select some units and click somewhere to make them moving, the first thing they do, is to run very fast to make the formation and then they walk to the destination (a lot slower...).

And how many time I saw some enemy warriors running very fast all around my walls then making a formation... It's not sexy at all,

and it's sound to be a lot of math calculation...

It would maybe better to make them moving individually to the the destination and make the formation when they reached their destination.

Or (I prefer this one) having the choice between formation and no formation (actually I thought that scattered was such option, but it leads to the same problem). If I select no formation, all units selected should move individually. If I select a formation, let say testudo, all soldiers walk to destination then make the testudo AND if I deselect and reselect any soldier in the testudo, the whole soldiers in that testudo should be selected (actualy this happen already in the game if you make a testudo with only one soldier!).

It would be a lot easier to move units, and maybe (i say maybe...) it would be more easier to compute the movements for the IA...

AND moreover it would lead to more tactical movements, more realistic flanking...

One other think, in spring rts (actualy I played spring 44) it's possible to set the direction where units gaze (even when you are deploying an artillery, like the romans siege engines) this could also give more tactical aspects...

[sanderd17]

I've been busy with formations lately, there should be less running now, and formations should turn around smoother. But I didn't do any real behaviour changes yet.

Currently, a formation ceases to exist when the units stop (you don't see this, but the units are all individual at that time). That's because units in formation have a special status that makes them follow the formation without any other possibilities (they don't react when attacked, they don't check for enemies ...). So they're a bit zombiefied. The formation itself also is an entity, but an entity without health, armour or attack value. You can't even select the entity.

IMO, we should aim to make a formation a complete entity, where the stats are a sum of the member stats. It should be selectable, you should be able to attack a complete formation, and a complete formation should be able to attack back. But this requires a lot of code to get formations to behave in a right way. The formation should know which commands they should pass on to which members. Like in Phalanx, the first members should do the attack animation, but the entire formation should deal damage (as the other rows also help pushing). You can see that UnitAI currently is over 5000 lines of code. Making every unit command also work for formations could easily double that code, as formations need different behaviour in almost all cases.

So, we're working on it, bit it will take time, a LOT of time.

[greycat]

when I select some units and click somewhere to make them moving, the first thing they do, is to run very fast to make the formation and then they walk to the destination (a lot slower...).

It would maybe better to make them moving individually to the the destination and make the formation when they reached their destination.

Or (I prefer this one) having the choice between formation and no formation (actually I thought that scattered was such option, but it leads to the same problem). If I select no formation, all units selected should move individually. If I select a formation, let say testudo, all soldiers walk to destination then make the testudo AND if I deselect and reselect any soldier in the testudo, the whole soldiers in that testudo should be selected (actualy this happen already in the game if you make a testudo with only one soldier!).

If tactical realism is what we want. The unit should move in formation.

[greycat]

IMO, we should aim to make a formation a complete entity, where the stats are a sum of the member stats.

That sounds like the best way. Even big budget games like Rome 2 are having problems with this kind of thing...

I came a cross some pdf books, maybe it can help us get some ideas?

Dynamic Formations in Real-Time Strategy Games

http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/cig08/Proceedings/papers/8054.pdf

Intelligent Moving of Groups in Real-Time Strategy Games

http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/cig08/Proceedings/papers/8075.pdf

Edited December 8, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

It talks about how a destroyed unit should be replaced by a neighboring unit in formation. This is how it works in real life and not how Rome 2 handles it.

[greycat]

Does the 'team leader' approach (just having team leader deal with enemy) seems like a good way to do it?

[ProvencalLeGaullois]

So, we're working on it, bit it will take time, a LOT of time.

AI seems to be really hard to code.

[ProvencalLeGaullois]

Does the 'team leader' approach (just having team leader deal with enemy) seems like a good way to do it?

Follow the leader : http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/programming/game-programming/0596005555/flocking/ch04_sect1_004

here an applet, more for tribal war I would say... : http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids

you'll have a lot of read my friends...

(for KoЯn fans)

[greycat]

I've been busy with formations lately, there should be less running now, and formations should turn around smoother. But I didn't do any real behaviour changes yet.

Currently, a formation ceases to exist when the units stop (you don't see this, but the units are all individual at that time). That's because units in formation have a special status that makes them follow the formation without any other possibilities (they don't react when attacked, they don't check for enemies ...). So they're a bit zombiefied. The formation itself also is an entity, but an entity without health, armour or attack value. You can't even select the entity.

IMO, we should aim to make a formation a complete entity, where the stats are a sum of the member stats. It should be selectable, you should be able to attack a complete formation, and a complete formation should be able to attack back. But this requires a lot of code to get formations to behave in a right way. The formation should know which commands they should pass on to which members. Like in Phalanx, the first members should do the attack animation, but the entire formation should deal damage (as the other rows also help pushing). You can see that UnitAI currently is over 5000 lines of code. Making every unit command also work for formations could easily double that code, as formations need different behaviour in almost all cases.

So, we're working on it, bit it will take time, a LOT of time.

When I have a group in formation and choose a new direction, they ball up in one mass and then move to the new destination. Can we make one member the group leader and have the rest follow him?

Edited December 16, 2013 by greycat

[sanderd17]

That won't make any difference to the running, it will just make it visually a bit better.

The balling up in one mass should be fixed in SVN now.

[greycat]

That won't make any difference to the running, it will just make it visually a bit better.

The balling up in one mass should be fixed in SVN now.

Ok..

Edited December 16, 2013 by greycat