Crowd-sourced Civ: Mauryan Indians

[om_rahul]

I don't

Yeah, "scimitar" will not be used. That was a very old description I made for a different game when I was much more ignorant.

Question: Would any of these reliefs have been painted? (like the Greeks and Romans painted their sculpture)

I don't have idea about warrior swords but the king swords are painted with gold or silver. especialy its cover (forget real name).

[om_rahul]

@Rahul

The Khanda is the pre-Talwar sword of India.

yeah khanda is straight sword sorry i put other sword also.

Actualy i want to point out this wikipedai line::::

Straight swords, (as well as other swords curved both inward and outward), have been used in Indian history since the Iron Age Mahajanapadas (roughly 600 to 300 BC), being mentioned in the Sanskrit epics, and used in soldiers in armies such as those of the Mauryan Empire (320-185 BC),Kalinga armies too. Several sculptures from the Gupta era (AD 280-550) portray soldiers holding khanda-like broadswords. These are again flared out at the tip. They continued to be used in art such as Chola era murtis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanda_%28sword%29

I think they abondon the use of straight sword after some period. (don't know exact time) after that they mostly use curved sword. Because curved sowrd are defense, flexiable and can move easly with body (sory for english).

[lilstewie]

I think they abondon the use of straight sword after some period. (don't know exact time) after that they mostly use curved sword. Because curved sowrd are defense, flexiable and can move easly with body (sory for english).

And the Talwar was a superior cavalry sword compared to the Khanda.

Indian cavalry preferred the Talwar.

Edited August 22, 2012 by lilstewie

[Mythos_Ruler]

I don't

I don't have idea about warrior swords but the king swords are painted with gold or silver. especialy its cover (forget real name).

I meant the sculptural reliefs in the architectural references you have provided.

[om_rahul]

I meant the sculptural reliefs in the architectural references you have provided.

Rasayan has meanings beyond healthful substances. Rasayan Shastr in Ancient India was much less developed than today. Nevertheless, the use and practice of Rasayan was widespread in Ancient India, and some examples of applied rasayan include paints used in the caves of Ajanta and Ellora, Maharashtra state, the steel of Vishnustambha (literal meaning: the tower of Vishnu), and a processed wood sample in the Kondivade caves near the Rajmachi fort in Maharashtra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasayana

My views::

This is internet information, but as far as i hear about India, ancient time india is very good in ambroidery, decoration, sculpture, and one reason could be, most ancient civilization also found here (indus civilization).

Indian houses uses a paint, they made up of stones and after that stone walls are covered with mudd. Then they are painted

Structure of indian houses also depend upon which reason u live north or south.

[om_rahul]

Technology In mauryan periods: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1986595.stm

Chankya Technology: space scientist Prof S.V. Bhavasar in DRDO (india biggest technology development organization) understand the warfare secrets of military strategist Kautilya alias Chanakya from Arahtsastra,

1) The book includes the recipe for a single meal that will keep a soldier fighting for a month.

2) Shoes made of camel skin smeared with a serum made from the flesh of owls and vultures can help soldiers walk hundreds of miles during a war without feeling tired.

3) A powder made from fireflies and the eyes of wild boar can endow soldiers with night vision.

In India history chankya was the most intelligent person.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1986595.stm

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2002-08-10/pune/27306786_1_drdo-development-organisation-defence-research

[om_rahul]

@Rahul

The Khanda is the pre-Talwar sword of India.

But the hilt with the hand guard would need to be replaced for this era. I dont think you can see the hilt in the game anyways.

I haven't seen any surviving painted relief from India or from the carvings in Indianized kingdoms in South East Asia.

I don't know for sure.

I think it could be i watch watched about 1 year ago i watch chankya show, and in that they mostly used straight sword. It could be reason.

[lilstewie]

female

A spearmen, and a swordsman with scale armor, dhoti, etc. 1st century A.D.

Butkara Stupa

Mathura spearmen, around 1 century A.D.

King Vijaya landing in Ceylon(Sri Lanka)

Excellent image of an Indian city in antiquity. Supported by the many reliefs.

Sangamitta landing in Sri Lanka

Edited August 22, 2012 by lilstewie

[Potter]

Question: Would any of these reliefs have been painted? (like the Greeks and Romans painted their sculpture)

I don't think the palace walls and temple walls were painted with paintings, but the walls were polished very much. As can be seen from here the art of polishing was very developed and the buildings were more intricate in design.

Mauryan period marks the transition from using wood to stone. Thats why I think that paintings are not used much...

[lilstewie]

We will not be releasing the Mauryan civ in 4-5 weeks, it will need a lot longer than that. Progress with architecture hasn't really got much further than this:

And it wouldn't be a Mauryan civ without elephants, and those need to be completely redesigned and animated which will take a long time. We are looking for an experienced Blender skeletal animator to help us out.

You guys have done an excellent job. I love the buildings.

Tell us when you guys will show more previews.

Edited August 23, 2012 by lilstewie

[om_rahul]

I don't think the palace walls and temple walls were painted with paintings, but the walls were polished very much. As can be seen from here the art of polishing was very developed and the buildings were more intricate in design.

Mauryan period marks the transition from using wood to stone. Thats why I think that paintings are not used much...

1) Palace walls and temple walls were painted :

http://ccrtindia.gov.in/wall%20paintings.html

{{ Indian Paintings can be broadly classified as murals and miniatures. Murals are large works executed on the walls of solid structures, as in the Ajanta Caves and the Kailashnath temple. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_painting"

2) Mauryan period marks the transition from using wood to stone:

yes wikipedia history says that "Mauryan period marks the transition from using wood to stone: "

What about the lothal city architect which 2000 year older the mauryans:

Lothal : The town was divided into blocks of 1–2-metre-high (3–6 ft) platforms of sun-dried bricks, each serving 20–30 houses of thick mud and brick walls

2) The warehouse was built close to the acropolis on a 3.5-metre-high (10.5 ft) podium of mud bricks. The rulers could thus supervise the activity on the dock and warehouse simultaneously. Facilitating the movement of cargo was a mud-brick

3) the warehouse was originally built on sixty-four cubical blocks, 3.6 metres (11.8 ft) square, with 1.2-metre (3.9-ft) passages, and based on a 3.5-metre-high (11.5 ft) mud-brick podium3)

4) A large mud-brick building faces the factory, and its significance is noted in lothal plan.

for reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothal

[lilstewie]

I think the guys making the building models pretty much got it covered.

[om_rahul]

I think the guys making the building models pretty much got it covered.

The house and civic model in above picture, they did the realy good work.

but

1) If this model is in testing and they are enhancing thats fine, but my point of view this looks kids play houses especialy the top of the house.

The top of the house are made up of wooden, if i am right, its rare to find the top of the house is made up of wood,

on top mostly use grass, slate, stones..

In this civic scenter look like a house, and as this house doesn't suit the quality of 0ad has.

i think this model need refine.

I could be wrong about this because i am not model desginer. "I didn't mean to say model desginer do wrong, i want to say it need little bit refine"

[om_rahul]

IF they are implementing this civic center, then 0ad done magnificent work.

[lilstewie]

The house and civic model in above picture, they did the realy good work.

but

1) If this model is in testing and they are enhancing thats fine, but my point of view this looks kids play houses especialy the top of the house.

The top of the house are made up of wooden, if i am right, its rare to find the top of the house is made up of wood,

on top mostly use grass, slate, stones..

In this civic scenter look like a house, and as this house doesn't suit the quality of 0ad has.

i think this model need refine.

I could be wrong about this because i am not model desginer. "I didn't mean to say model desginer do wrong, i want to say it need little bit refine"

I think they're doing a brilliant job with what they got from the reliefs. All the models looks fine to me.

[om_rahul]

I think they're doing a brilliant job with what they got from the reliefs. All the models looks fine to me.

@lilstewie

I never mean to be critics their skills or job, because this are the people who develop amazing game 0ad (open source). As a programmer i can understand how hard its to implement all this things and sometime i develop graphics stuf only for fun (noob in this stuf) knows how much time it consumes to do modelling. "I want contribute to 0ad in this respect also but i am so busy for next 6 months".

I point out this thing because mauryan civilization in this time in desgining phase, they can change anything, if its wrong. but when the mauryan civilization release it become very difficult to tackle with models.

Its first time open source game (0ad) implementing Indian civilization in game, I just want the things implimented preciously, and when we play mauryan civil it feels original of 0ad time.

I didn't mean to disrespect the devs.

[Pureon]

I didn't mean to disrespect the devs.

You didn't. Those are only 'placeholder' models that allow us to work on buildings, units, and gameplay simultaneously. The real architecture design will look more like the 'darker' civ center image you posted above.

And anyway, you're allowed to provide constructive criticism, especially because you've supported your comments with useful historical references

[lilstewie]

Understood Rahul.

From the previews they released. Mauryans looks so kewl.

Edited August 23, 2012 by lilstewie

[om_rahul]

XD

[om_rahul]

Thanks,

[Potter]

1) Palace walls and temple walls were painted :

http://ccrtindia.gov...0paintings.html

{{ Indian Paintings can be broadly classified as murals and miniatures. Murals are large works executed on the walls of solid structures, as in the Ajanta Caves and the Kailashnath temple. "http://en.wikipedia....Indian_painting"

Yes, numerous paintings adorned india in ancient times. But, considering the time period of mauryans in 0 AD Part I (which is about 500 BC to 1 BC), But, I am not able to find any architectural references about paintings on palace and temple walls during that period...

Ajanta caves cover the later period from 2 BC to 600 AD). So, I am not sure whether we should consider them in this context... Even if they are taken into account, i think they should be considered as a special building and not as indicative of temple or palace walls....

2) Mauryan period marks the transition from using wood to stone:

yes wikipedia history says that "Mauryan period marks the transition from using wood to stone: "

What about the lothal city architect which 2000 year older the mauryans:

Yes, Lothal boasts the Indus Valley Civilization's use of mud-bricks. But, i think that here we should consider only the architecture found about the mauryan period...

If we can get something from the journals of Megasthenes, i think we would be more clear on this aspect...

[lilstewie]

Bricks were used for sure.

http://Sisupalgarh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosali

The remains of the ancient city Sisupalgarh has been discovered near Bhubaneswar, capital of the Orissa state in India. Sisupalgarh is a nationally protected monument. Archaeologists claim the city to be at least 2,500 years old. On the basis of the architectural pattern and artefacts discovered during the early excavations, B.B. Lal concluded that this fort city flourished between 3rd century BC and 4th century AD. On the basis of the new findings, M. Smith and R. Mohanty claim that the fortified city flourished from around 5th century BC and probably lasted well after the 4th century. Thus, this defensive settlement originated prior to the Mauryan empire. The population of the city could have amounted to 20,000 to 25,000. Archaeologists have employed geophysical survey, systematic surface collections and selected excavations in the 4.8 km perimeter of the fortified area and studied individual houses and civic as well as domestic architecture to arrive at the figure. The significance of the population is clear when one bears in mind that the population of classical Athens was 10,000. However the historians also claim that it is too early to comment on the population of the city as yet only a part of the city has been excavated.^[2] The first excavations at the site were carried out by B.B. Lal in 1948. An American-Indian team took up work in 2001. In 2005 ground penetrating radar revealed the probable position of the southern moat.^[3] Toward the centre of the fortress (Area D) the 19 column structure has been recorded three-dimensionally by means of a laser scanner. It is disturbed and incomplete. Each of the glacis of the quadrangular plan is pierced by two gates. As at contemporary Jaugada, the plan tips 10° clockwise of north. With 1125 m x 1115 m (measured on the crest) Sisupalgarh is larger in surface than is Jaugada. Sisupalgarh's defences are the highest known of this period in India. The gates themselves measure over 90m in length from the inside to outside and vary considerably in size, shape and in details of building. The western of the two gates in the northern glacis seems to be the largest and/or best preserved. The two in the southern glacis are the smallest. But as year for year the encroaching rice paddies increase in size, these and the other gates decrease in size. Excavation facets in the gate structures can be seen from the windows of commercial aircraft which pass by Sisupalgarh on the way in and out ofBhubaneswar. The ancient settlement probably was not dense, but rather there was room inside the fortress to graze.

Edited August 23, 2012 by lilstewie

[lilstewie]

The discoveries at Sisupalgarh are quite similar as described in the Arthasastra.

Translations from the Arthasastra about the description of fortified town are

given in the following passages.

"… the king may have his fortified capital as the seat of his ….in a locality

naturally best fitted for the purpose. Such as the bank of the confluence of the

rivers, a deep pool of perennial water or a lake or a tank, surrounded with an

artificial canal of water connected with both land and water paths."

" Above the rampart, parapets in odd or even numbers and with an intermediate

space from 12-24 hastas from each other shall be built of bricks."

"Demarcation of the ground inside the fort shall be made first by opening three

royal roads from west to east and three from South to north…"

These references from the Arthasastra are corroborated by Archaeological

findings at Sisupalgarh e.g

The presence of a square (Chaturasara) settlement.

Fortification walls oriented along the cardinal directions.

A moat around the fortification fed by a perennial stream.

The fortification comprising a rampart and over lying brick walls

with intermediary earthen fillings.

Three royal roads running east-west and north and south

So far there are two differences:6

There are two major roads in east-west and north-south direction.

May be due to Sisupalgarh not being as large a settlement as

envisaged in the Arthasastra.

The Arthasastra describes about twelve major gateways where as

Sisupalgarh has only eight.

The fort forms Rough Square in plan. The outline clearly suggests the existence

of corner towers and eight large gateways, two on each sides besides about eight

smaller openings distributed all over the perimeter. The gateways are so placed

that if the distance between the two corner towers of any side is trisected, a

gateway will be found near each point of trisection. All these suggests a regular

planning not only of the fortification but of the streets inside which are likely to

have run east-west, north-south connecting the opposite gateways in a grid

pattern.

An assemblage of 16 monolithic pillars, locally called Shola Khamba in an area

of some 30 m x 30 m near the centre of the fortress were of special interest. Built

up of laterite, some pillars are bearing medallions like those found in Bharhut,

Sanchi, Udayagiri and Khanadagiri caves. The columns measure over 4.9 m in

height and have a maximal diameter of about 70 cm. This could be the remains

of a pillared hall since the pillars have horizontal sockets, seemingly intended to

hold superimposed beams or rafters. However only few pillars are standing intact

while others are missing their upper portion. The ground level inside the fort is

4.5 meter higher than outside. The fort while being too large for a mere citadel

enclosing perhaps the king’s palace and attached residence or quarters, did not

seem to accommodate common people, most of whom lived outside its confines

as it appears from the pottery remains towards the north and the west.

Excavation has revealed that the fort was in occupation from the beginning of the

third century BC till the middle of the fourth century AD. It also suggests that the

culture of the site had reached its height in the early phase i.e., 200 BC to 100

AD. And the deterioration had started taking place around 100 AD to 200 AD.

Originally the defences were constructed towards the beginning of 200 BC and

consisted of massive mud ramparts,10.12 meters wide at the base and more than

8 meters high with magnificent gateways, guard rooms, ancillary passages and

corner towers. In the second phase the clay rampart being susceptible to erosion

was reinforced by adding a thick layer of gravel in its top. The third phase is

marked by the erection of two brick walls, eight meters apart on top of the gravel

layer with fillings of mud and debris in between. Finally a collapsed revetment

wall was renovated with a battered exterior. The city was systematically planned

with well built houses of laterite or brick laid out in orderly streets in a grid

pattern. Cart-tracks uncovered at various levels of the streets reveal a record of

life of the people in the city.

The excavated western gateway of Sisupalgarh is worth mentioning. Built up of

large slabs of dressed laterite this gateway is remarkably elaborate. The imposing

complex has a passage 8mts wide between two flank walls and two gates, outer

and inner, giving access to the interior of the town. Immediately behind the outer

entrance a guard room was built in the southern flank while in northern flank

near the inner gate was pierced by narrow pathway for pedestrian traffic

probably a bypass when the main gate is closed. There were steps ascending

Water resource is the deciding factor for town planning. Sanskrit and Pali

literatures as well as Vastusastras exhibit moat, ditch or natural water barriers as

safety valve of defense for the fort or the capital city. The moats though planned

for defensive measure in the past, served as well for the water source for the

township. Sisupalgarh is circumscribed by the water streamlet called the

Gangua. The flow of the water is around the north, east and western sides of the

fort, thus producing a moat with perennial supply of water. The houses inside the

fort have wells fed by percolating water of the moat.

It was while excavating the site of Sisupalgarh to find out the culture sequence of

rouletted ware that fortunately along with the rouletted ware an excellently laid

out fort of the pre-Christian era was unearthed by Prof. B. B.Lal in 1948. Soon

after the Archaeological Survey of India ( ASI) declared the site protected in

February 13, 1950 with the caption: "Ancient remains inside and outside rampart

mostly buried". ASI has also recommended the site be declared protected for

excavation. Organisations like Indian National Trust for Art and Cultural

Heritage (INTACH) and Orissa Development Studies (ODS) had come forward

with similar demands.

More in the link

source: http://www.sdstate.e...c-India-Ray.pdf

Edited August 23, 2012 by lilstewie

[lilstewie]

Good link

http://www.penn.muse...14-2/Thapar.pdf

Take a look. Look at the B.C. stuff.

Mauryan, Sunga, etc stuff in Delhi.

Terracotta figurine of a horsemen with armor, Mauryan period. But can't really tell what type.

The houses of the period were built of roughly hewn blocks of quartzite or of mud brick over stone foundations. A few patchs of plaster still preserved in place indicate that the house walls were originally plastered.

-Sunga period

It is curious that the size of the mud bricks of this period is nearly identical to that of the one of the baked bricks of the Mauryan.

Sungas being one of their successors. Obviously carried on a lot of the Mauryan style, methods, etc.

Edited August 23, 2012 by lilstewie

[lilstewie]

Ariel view of the Sisupalgarh.

Edited August 23, 2012 by lilstewie