post-0 AD idea: mythology

[oshron]

i came up with an idea for a new faction. basically its just a collective "eastern barbarian" faction that would encompass the mongols, the huns, and one other barbarian tribe from eastern or northern asia. it seems kind of unfair to pretty much ignore two of the most significant peoples in history, one of which came to control nearly all of the old world. ideas for names right now are "Barbarians", "Germanics", and "Mongoloids"

alternatively, maybe they could be included in the slavic faction, and we try to work it out from there

EDIT: i have another idea for a name: "Migratory Barbarians"

Edited April 20, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

If you were going to add another faction, I'd far rather see the Mali Empire, the Ghana Empire, or the Songhay Empire. Africa needs more love. So do the Inca, too.

And I'm against lumping two or three separate, unrelated ethnic groups together. Again, it just makes the game look ignorant and possibly prejudiced, when you draw fine separations between, say, the Greeks and Romans, but lump non-Western cultures together. It makes it look like you consider them identical or interchangeable.

I don't like the names, either. "Barbarian" is basically a derogatory word that's often been code for "non-Western." "Mongoloid" is either used as an obsolete racial classification from the 19th century or so, or else it's used as a derogatory word for people with Down's Syndrome.

Mongols and Huns weren't Germanic either in culture or language, and you've already got the Norse covered.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

If you were going to add another faction, I'd far rather see the Mali Empire, the Ghana Empire, or the Songhay Empire. Africa needs more love. So do the Inca, too.

ill try to look into the mali, ghana, and songhay. in fact, maybe just the mali empire would be good. ive done some research into them before, anyway(i plan for them to appear at least briefly in a book that im writing) and ive heard that they were pretty distinct from the better-known zulus, actually utilizing cavalry. the question would be if they have a distinct mythology and mythological units and techs that can be applied. this could actually give some trouble to the cro-magnons because it may be more fitting for the mali to have those african cryptids instead.

...waitaminute! wait a minute! i know! maybe the mali empire could be the muslim representative of the game! according to some quick research, their major religions were just ancestor worship and islam.

And I'm against lumping two or three separate, unrelated ethnic groups together. Again, it just makes the game look ignorant and possibly prejudiced, when you draw fine separations between, say, the Greeks and Romans, but lump non-Western cultures together. It makes it look like you consider them identical or interchangeable.

i get what you mean here. but what's your opinion about the polynesian faction lumping the hawaiians, maori, and easter islanders together?

I don't like the names, either. "Barbarian" is basically a derogatory word that's often been code for "non-Western." "Mongoloid" is either used as an obsolete racial classification from the 19th century or so, or else it's used as a derogatory word for people with Down's Syndrome.

Mongols and Huns weren't Germanic either in culture or language, and you've already got the Norse covered.

i didnt really want to use "barbarian" either, but that was just an idea for a name before anything else for the faction is derived.

i also came up with another idea earlier to further differentiate major gods within a faction from other ones. each faction as a whole would get a shared demigod/super unit (for the greeks, it would be the Argonaut) which first becomes available in the city phase. then, in the empire phase, a second super unit becomes available which is unique to each major god. ive currently only done thinking into the greeks, and i have to say that poseidon's would probably be Companion Cavalry/Hetairoi, since poseidon emphasizes cavalry. perhaps tjhe Scythian Archer that i mentioned long before could go over to hades because of their deadly capabilities. i would automatically think a spartan would make a great super unit for zeus, but i want to refrain from using a spartan because theres already the godpower "Spartan"

as for other super units, scythed chariots, sharktooth clubbers (for the polynesians), shorn ones (for aztecs), eagle warriors, and some kind of scottish warrior (for beira of the celtic faction) come to mind. with the super units i already have down, ill be reassigning them to one major god in particular, like the lambton knight will be going over to brigantia

EDIT: oh, another idea i had a long time ago was to make slavery in the game an option. during teh village phase only, you could research Slavery and from then on, there would be a 10% chance that a Slave unit would appear at your civic center every time you killed an enemy unit. alternatively, "Slavery" could be saved as a bonus for a particular major god, or there could be traits to certain units (like the aztecs) that allow them to take prisoners which could then be used for sacrifices. i know slavery is a very sensitive subject (for that very reason, im not including it for a more modern RTS), but it was widely practiced in the ancient world and would make a good bonus for a faction if nothing else can be devised

Edited April 21, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

I don't know a ton about the various empires in West Africa. I think the Ghana Empire was the first and the Mali Empire was the last. The Ghana Empire was pre-Muslim (I don't know if their religion had a name, although ancestor worship is probably a misnomer), while Mali was Muslim. Actually, combining Islam with the indigenous myths would provide a larger basis for myth units. As for the African cryptids, they come from all over Africa, so I wouldn't expect more than one or two to actually be from Ghana, Songhay, or Mali. I know that Batamzinga, Olitiau, Kongamato, Sasabonsam, and Kerit are not from those cultures.

but what's your opinion about the polynesian faction lumping the hawaiians, maori, and easter islanders together?

The Polynesians are closely related cultures and, since they separated from each other only recently (historically speaking), are pretty similar in several ways, such as myth and religion (I don't know about military matters). It's more akin to lumping Britons and Gauls together, really. They had certain differences and didn't think of themselves as the same ethnic group, so if possible it would be nice to divide Polynesians into sub-factions like the Britons and Gauls in 0 A.D., but lumping them together isn't without some basis in reality.

i also came up with another idea earlier to further differentiate major gods within a faction from other ones.

That's a great idea. Hopefully there are enough super units to go around. You'll have more options if you allow super units to be mythological as well.

EDIT: oh, another idea i had a long time ago was to make slavery in the game an option. during teh village phase only, you could research Slavery and from then on, there would be a 10% chance that a Slave unit would appear at your civic center every time you killed an enemy unit. alternatively, "Slavery" could be saved as a bonus for a particular major god, or there could be traits to certain units (like the aztecs) that allow them to take prisoners which could then be used for sacrifices. i know slavery is a very sensitive subject (for that very reason, im not including it for a more modern RTS), but it was widely practiced in the ancient world and would make a good bonus for a faction if nothing else can be devised

Slavery wasn't just common in ancient times, it was pretty much ubiquitous. I'd guess that even the Aztecs, who preferred to sacrifice people rather than enslaving them or killing them in battle, probably had some form of slavery (but I don't know). I think that only completely nomadic people would entirely lack slavery, so perhaps make it a "technology" of the Town phase -- that should allow you to avoid giving it to Cro-Magnons during their Paleolithic phase.

Slavery is perhaps a subject that could make players unhappy, but if the game already is about war and includes things like human sacrifice, at this point you're just being true to history. Morally, I find it difficult to consider war any "better" than slavery. After all, you don't have to glorify slavery. And if you prefer, you can engage in some historical inaccuracy and make it impossible (or just harder) to use slaves if you focus on the "good" Major God of your faction.

Slaves could be obtained from "killing" enemy units, including support units, but there should be some units that can't be enslaved. For example, animal units can't really be enslaved. You can capture them, and usually you make them obey you, but capturing them in battle when somebody is riding them is pretty impractical, and they don't do the same things as human slaves. Some myth units should probably also be impossible to enslave, if only because their abilities as slaves (and the graphics) would be totally different from human slaves and it would get quite complicated (and visually too confusing) to make separate slave versions of every other myth unit. I'm thinking centaurs and sea serpents, for example.

IMO slaves should be basic economic units for the most part: they can be used for labor, but not healing. Some civilizations (for example, the Spartans and Persians of 0 A.D.) used slaves for military units, but practically speaking they still need some training no matter where you got them, unless they were citizen-soldiers and you just want basic cannon fodder, so slaves shouldn't be instant-infantry or instant-Scythian archers. For one thing, I imagine it might be hard to balance that (but you know more about RTS games than I do!) It could possibly exist as a military advantage for a few individual factions (i.e. Persia, if you use them), while Aztecs might find it most efficient to sacrifice slaves to literally, directly increase their gods' powers.

Oh, and for added complexity, you could try to figure out how to make slave revolts a possibility if they outnumber free units.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

the whole slavery thing is actually borrowed from Empire Earth: The Art of Conquest. in that game, the special civilization power for the Assyrians was "Slavery" and for every few enemy units you killed, you would get a free citizen. my thought with slavery for this is to reimplement it so that you get a specific Slave unit instead of just a citizen. they would work the same as a typical economic units, maybe have a weak attack, and wouldnt count towards your population count. i guess if the Spartan god power is used on them, they can become Helots for historical accuracy

yknow, maybe Slavery could be an egyptian bonus. maybe it could go for Set, since he's the "evil" egyptian god

[Aldandil]

But Set is the god of chaos and desert storms... Surely, there's something more dramatic to give him for a god power, like a terrific chaos storm that mucks up your enemies but leaves your own units unscathed (since his powers were not harmful to Re'). I'm not sure what Apep could do, then, except having a larger, more chaotic, and more damaging chaos flood. Maybe Set could cause droughts that harm enemy agriculture instead.

Since all or nearly all ancient cultures used slavery, I prefer the idea of making slavery something that every civilization can use starting at the Town phase, but giving some of them special things they can do, like turn slaves into weak infantry (for Greeks and Persians) or using them in sacrifices (for Aztecs). There are probably some civilizations in which slaves frequently earned their freedom and became citizens, so some factions could have the ability for slaves to "level up" to citizen-soldiers with experience.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

But Set is the god of chaos and desert storms... Surely, there's something more dramatic to give him for a god power

i think you may have misunderstood. i have "Slavery" set down as Set's BONUS, not his GODPOWER. a bonus is inherent, you dont really activate it (except in certain rare instances). Set players would just inherently have slavery active.

[Aldandil]

Ah, my mistake.

[oshron]

i came up with some more bonuses for major gods:

Chinampa (Aztecs: Chalchiuhtlicue): this bonus allows you to build special Chinampa buildings. these are exactly the same as farms except that they can be built on water as long as they are also touching land. this is an actual historical element employed by the aztecs, who had their capitol on an island in the middle of a lake. it fits with Chalchiuhtlicue, who is the goddess of various kinds of water (i decided to just label her as "goddess of water" because she is the goddess of lakes, rivers, streams, horizontal water...there was a bit too much of that so i simplified things)

Mercenaries (Semites: Tanit): i realized that, though the carthaginians are represented in the semitic faction, their actual military is lacking. the carthaginian army was mostly composed of mercenaries, so i decided to give Tanit--who represents the phoenicians and carthaginians--the bonus "Mercenaries". anyone with a civic center under tanit can call upon the aid of mercenaries from other tribes and peoples that will help defend the town. for balance, it would probably cost 1000 of a certain resource to summon them, and after a while, the mercenaries would disappear.

Fervor (Soninke: Iblis): i kinda cheated with the Soninke Muslim major gods; they are pretty much exactly the same as the christian ones. the evil god for them is also the devil, here under the name Iblis. anyway, the power of Fervor is activated from a temple or possibly from teh civic center and sends all of your soldiers into a fanatical frenzy, making them do more damage to soldiers from other civilizations. its kinda based on the whole jihad thing; i also have fervor as the bonus for another muslim faction in a different game

[Aldandil]

Chinampas are a great idea! Do you know if it would theoretically be possible to program it so that, instead of having to touch land, it can be anywhere in the lake but has to be fresh water and can't be a river?

Mercenaries should have a different appearance (would player color be enough?) so they can't be confused with the units of the faction they relate to.

Fervor (Soninke: Iblis): i kinda cheated with the Soninke Muslim major gods; they are pretty much exactly the same as the christian ones. the evil god for them is also the devil, here under the name Iblis. anyway, the power of Fervor is activated from a temple or possibly from teh civic center and sends all of your soldiers into a fanatical frenzy, making them do more damage to soldiers from other civilizations. its kinda based on the whole jihad thing; i also have fervor as the bonus for another muslim faction in a different game

I don't like this, you're treading into inaccurate stereotype territory and somebody is bound to accuse you of being insensitive, prejudiced, offensive, or unfair, regardless of your intent. I'd just totally avoid this.

Luckily Iblis isn't quite the same as the Christian Lucifer, despite the similarities. For one thing, I think he's supposed to be a djinni instead of a fallen angel. But there should be lots of angels, hopefully enough for two factions... I dunno. You could go with the pre-Muslim Ghana Empire if it becomes a problem. When I suggested a West African faction the "pantheon" overlap with Christians didn't occur to me.

[oshron]

Chinampas are a great idea! Do you know if it would theoretically be possible to program it so that, instead of having to touch land, it can be anywhere in the lake but has to be fresh water and can't be a river?

i dont think theres any difference between saltwater, freshwater, and currents in games like this, programming wise. for simplicity's sake, it would just be any water, but maybe it could be that they can only be built on certain terrain connected to water, like they cant be built on ice or rock or things like that

Mercenaries should have a different appearance (would player color be enough?) so they can't be confused with the units of the faction they relate to.

i was thinking that they would just be visibly different and not really HAVE a player color. basically, the units that the carthaginians have in 0ad would be the mercenaries, and would be labeled things like "Nubian Mercenary" or "Celtic Mercenary" and so on

I don't like this, you're treading into inaccurate stereotype territory and somebody is bound to accuse you of being insensitive, prejudiced, offensive, or unfair, regardless of your intent. I'd just totally avoid this.

if its not the muslim faction, then some other faction will get a fervor/fanaticism power. as with the slavery power, this one is also based on empire earth

Luckily Iblis isn't quite the same as the Christian Lucifer, despite the similarities. For one thing, I think he's supposed to be a djinni instead of a fallen angel. But there should be lots of angels, hopefully enough for two factions... I dunno. You could go with the pre-Muslim Ghana Empire if it becomes a problem. When I suggested a West African faction the "pantheon" overlap with Christians didn't occur to me.

yeah, i know that much in the little research ive done thus far. as i understand it, he basically has no power other than being able to suggest that people do bad things, so i labeled him as "entity of evil suggestion". that being teh case, i think i'll purposely make him "weaker" than other major gods. thats actually one of the reasons i wanted to give him Fervor, so that he has one really useful aspect but is otherwise undesirable

if i can find information on islamic angels, you can bet ill be including them. thus far, im leaning towards having prophets listed in the koran appearing. for instance, the neutral major god for the soninke is muhammad. if that ends up being very controversial, ill take him out, but he seems to be too important to leave out. no actual imagery of him, though. it would probably be something like this instead.

i think ill be focusing mostly on the mali empire, which was islamic, but maybe some earlier ghana religious entities could appear as very early minor gods leading up to islamic prophets, angels, and demons

and the real reason that the muslim and christian major gods are essentially the same entities is because...well...they pretty much ARE the same entities. what most people dont realize is that the Christian God and the Islamic Allah are not seperate entities. "god" is simply the english word for "allah", and "allah" is just the arabic word for "god". the major difference between the major gods is the fact that their neutral gods are different, but fitting: the christians have jesus, and the muslims have muhammad. simple.

[oshron]

DPFAR (double post for a reason):

i sorted out the new Harappan Hindu pantheon! here's what i have for our Indus Valley representatives:

MAJOR GODS

Brahma (god of creation)

Devi (female aspect of the divine)

Indra (god of war, storms, and rainfall; GP: Rain)

my original setup with the hindu pantheon had brahma, devi, and shiva as major gods, the justification for shive being the "evil" god because he is the destroyer. all of teh Trimurti (basically the Trinity of Hinduism) are present, though vishnu and shiva are minor gods as opposed to brahma being a major god. devi is present asthe neutral god because devi herself she all of the universe and doesnt really interfere with anything. four of her avatars are present, though, all as minor gods. technically, indra shouldnt be the "evil" god (i guess) because he's actually the king of teh hindu gods. but my research showed that he is also the god of war and is known to send down punishing rain. for the same reason mars is the "evil" roman god, indra is the "evil" one here. oh, and there's no punishing rain that he uses here: the Rain godpower is boosted right out of AOM--where it is the godpower of Ra--and has the same effects: it just speeds up the rate at which food is gathered.

MINOR GODS

TOWN PHASE

-- Agni (god of fire; his myth unit is the Gold-digging Ant)

-- Kali (goddess of eternal energy; her myth units are the Red Dog (dhole)* and Nivatakavacha, a type of ocean-dwelling asura that serves as a naval myth unit)

-- Hanuman (general of teh vanaras, which are basically ape-men; his myth unit is the Bandar-log, a mischievous monkey)

*if youre at all familiar with The Jungle Book in its original telling, you'll notice that some of the hindu myth units are based on it. i know its kind of cheating, but i thought it would be fitting to pay tribute to rudyard kipling, the original author, and because there arent that many other indian and hindu creatures that can serve as myth units; i was just barely able to fill in the rest. but dont worry, the vast majority of the hindu myth units are all authentic

CITY PHASE

-- Rama (king of Ayodhya and a popular entity in hindu tradition; his myth units are Sahi, a gigantic porcupine, and Garuda, a bird-man or possibly a giant eagle because garuda is the hindu equivalent of the greek aquila)

-- Parvati (goddess of mothers; her myth units are the Gandharva, basically a hindu centaur, and the Ganaberunda, a two-headed bird that is common in temple motifs)

-- Varuna (god of law, the underworld, and the ocean; his myth units are the Makara, which is something like a terrestrial dolphin or possibly an ambulocetus-like whale, and teh Rainbow Fish, a fish the size of a whale)

EMPIRE PHASE

-- Sarasvati (goddess of knowledge and the arts; her myth unit is the Rock Python, a living siege unit that doubles as a scout, capable of entering a trance while idle and expanding its light of sight much like the atlantean Oracle in AOM:The Titans)

-- Krishna (god of protection; i know im not really doing krishna justice by having him as just an empire phase god and not a legend phase or major god, but i thought that the ones i already have as major gods and legend phase gods are actually more deserving of their positions than krishna. sorry, krishna anyway, his myth unit is Daitya, which was a type of giant asura that fought the devas (hindus gods) )

-- Vishnu (god of protection; again, not doing him adequate justice, but, really, in the eye of most of thee worlds people, Vishnu doesnt even come to mind when you think hinduism; you automatically think Shiva or Ganesha instead. *ahem* continuing, vishnu's myth unit is the Rakshasa, a shapeshifting demon)

LEGEND PHASE

-- Shiva (god of destruction; his myth unit is the Naga, a gigantic cobra-like dragon)

-- Ganesha (god of science and teh arts; his myth unit is Airavata, which is the white elephant that Indra is depicted riding. seeing how ganesha has the head of an elephant, i thought it was only fitting that he have an elephant as his myth unit. airaventa would act as a living siege unit, probably. ganesha is also the only hindu minor god available to all three major gods, because his worship is so popular and so widespread)

-- Durga (goddess of supreme radiance and arguably the most powerful of devi's avatars. durga grants the Dawon myth unit, an enormous tiger goddess that durga traditionally rides into battle. durga is only available to devi)

Edited April 23, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Yeah, I know about Allah and YHWH being the same Supreme Being.

Having Muhammed as a "god" is really weird, though, and doesn't really make sense, since Islam is very explicit that unlike Jesus, he's not considered divine at all.

Rain? For Re'? That makes no sense. First off, it doesn't rain in Egypt... His power should be the Eye of Re, a fire spitting lioness-headed or cobra-headed goddess that destroys one or a few enemy unit(s) and then goes back to heaven. Anyway, you said you were giving rain to Indra, not Re', which makes far more sense.

I like the Hindu pantheon so far, but I'd make a few myth unit changes:

Agni: I'd use Cushna, a rabid, fire-breathing red dog. I don't know that the giant ants are even genuine Indian myth, I think the Greeks just *thought* they lived in India.

Kali: Dholes are a real animal, and kind of boring for a myth unit for that reason. I'd give her the Rakshasas instead.

Hanuman: He's just got to have actual Vanaras. Humanoid monkeys with weapons FTW! You can even make them ambidextrous and let them use their tail as a third hand.

Parvati: Gandharvas don't really look like centaurs as far as I know, but they're fine as a myth unit.

Rama and Varuna: Makara are more like mer-crocodiles, mer-antelope, and elephant-nosed crocodiles. They are a mount of Vishnu so I'd consider giving them to Rama instead of the Garuda. Another huge sea monster Varuna can have instead is the Timingila.

Vishnu: I think he should have the Garuda instead of Rama. If you want it in multiples, I'd call it Suparna instead. Another option is to give Rama a Suparna, and make it basically a smaller and weaker version of Garuda (and with no arms, just feet and wings). Or, let Rama keep Garuda and give the Makara to Vishnu.

Shiva: Nagas are not so much dragons as multi-headed river snakes.

Other myth units you might consider, esp. for Krishna, Vishnu, and Rama:

Leogryph (Harappan griffin with the head of a lion and the horns of a wild goat. Later Indian versions had no horns, but I like the horns personally. Persians can have this unit instead.)

Horned Tiger (possibly a second myth unit for Durga?)

Jalebha (a mer-elephant, probably a variety of Makara, could work for Varuna)

One-Horned Bull (the Malaysians call it Sz, I don't think the Harappan name is known)

Yali/Vyala/Sardula/Gaja Simha (lion with two or three goat horns, and the trunk or entire head of an elephant)

Jala-Turaga (a hippocamp, if you aren't using it for the Greeks)

Edited April 23, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

Yeah, I know about Allah and YHWH being the same Supreme Being.

Having Muhammed as a "god" is really weird, though, and doesn't really make sense, since Islam is very explicit that unlike Jesus, he's not considered divine at all.

i know, but muhammad IS very important to the islamic faith. if i can find another islamic entity that can replace him, i guess i'd do that

Rain? For Re'? That makes no sense. First off, it doesn't rain in Egypt... His power should be the Eye of Re, a fire spitting lioness-headed or cobra-headed goddess that destroys one or a few enemy unit(s) and then goes back to heaven. Anyway, you said you were giving rain to Indra, not Re', which makes far more sense.

i dont know about giving ra such a godpower; the godpowers of major gods actually arent supposed to be especially powerful, because theyre available from the very beginning of the game

speaking of godpowers, which faction do you think should have a meteor-type godpower? Meteor was one of the most powerful godpowers in AOM, and meteors are very common in mythology in general. im currently leaning towards giving it to the chinese, but what do you think?

Agni: I'd use Cushna, a rabid, fire-breathing red dog. I don't know that the giant ants are even genuine Indian myth, I think the Greeks just *thought* they lived in India.

Kali: Dholes are a real animal, and kind of boring for a myth unit for that reason. I'd give her the Rakshasas instead.

Hanuman: He's just got to have actual Vanaras. Humanoid monkeys with weapons FTW! You can even make them ambidextrous and let them use their tail as a third hand.

Parvati: Gandharvas don't really look like centaurs as far as I know, but they're fine as a myth unit.

Rama and Varuna: Makara are more like mer-crocodiles, mer-antelope, and elephant-nosed crocodiles. They are a mount of Vishnu so I'd consider giving them to Rama instead of the Garuda. Another huge sea monster Varuna can have instead is the Timingila.

Vishnu: I think he should have the Garuda instead of Rama. If you want it in multiples, I'd call it Suparna instead. Another option is to give Rama a Suparna, and make it basically a smaller and weaker version of Garuda (and with no arms, just feet and wings). Or, let Rama keep Garuda and give the Makara to Vishnu.

Shiva: Nagas are not so much dragons as multi-headed river snakes.

Other myth units you might consider, esp. for Krishna, Vishnu, and Rama:

Leogryph (Harappan griffin with the head of a lion and the horns of a wild goat. Later Indian versions had no horns, but I like the horns personally. Persians can have this unit instead.)

Horned Tiger (possibly a second myth unit for Durga?)

Jalebha (a mer-elephant, probably a variety of Makara, could work for Varuna)

One-Horned Bull (the Malaysians call it Sz, I don't think the Harappan name is known)

Yali/Vyala/Sardula/Gaja Simha (lion with two or three goat horns, and the trunk or entire head of an elephant)

Jala-Turaga (a hippocamp, if you aren't using it for the Greeks)

in this order:

1. the reason i want agni to have the gold-digging ant is mainly because i dont want to just give out another supernatural dog as a myth unit; giant ants shake things up a bit. where applicable, i want to make myth units as unique as possible appearance-wise as well as ability-wise

2. i wanted to include dholes because theyre actually a major antagonistic force in The Jungle Book, spreading destruction wherever they go, so theyd probably be something like an early living siege unit, which would also be beneficial because the hindus(representing the primitive IVC, if you remember)probably wont have that many regular siege units

3. i was planning to give hanuman a myth tech that upgrades the bandar-log to vanaras. the bandar-log are also from The Jungle Book; theyre those monkeys that in the disney film are led by that crazy orangutan, King Louie

4. in my research, i gathered that gandharvas were at least roughly equivalent greek centaurs. to differentiate them from their greek counterparts, ill probably arm them with swords or spears

5. unfortunately, there isnt much information that i could find in the way of the timingila, but maybe im just not looking hard enough. in any case, i plan to keep the makara as varuna's myth unit

6. well when i looked up "indian dragon" (which i had previously learned of) it was apparently synonymous with naga. i plan for them to have multiple heads as they are upgraded with technologies, helping differentiate them from the greek hydra

7. ill probably transfer the leogryph over to the persians; theyre the ones that need myth units now. not too sure about those other ones at the moment

i finished the zoroastrian persian pantheon as well, i just need to organize it into a setup for each major god. for that matter, the northwest semitic pantheon is also at just that point as well. ive also started work on the soninke pantheon by trying to decide on some west african entities for town phase gods. thus far, ive only got one: Anansi the spider

[Jeru]

(Watch out from depicting Mohammed as a deity or otherwise... Have you been following the protests/threats against South Park?)

[oshron]

southpark is a satirical show; im trying to show the utmost respect to EVERY entity that appears in the game

and i never said that muhammad was a god, he simply FUNCTIONS as one for the purposes of the game, unless i can replace him with a less controversial entity.

[Aldandil]

I still think Cushna is a better myth unit than dholes. How many firebreathing dogs do you already have, that you're worried about them being unique? They can still be a siege-type unit... they'll burn down the wooden buildings! How much does the dhole really differ in flavor from dire wolves or cwn annwn or Celtic war hounds? Is the Cushna any less unique than the dhole?

The ant just isn't authentic, and I wouldn't assume that the Jungle Book material is an authentic representation of the myths either. I mean, orangutans in India? Unless you can find a genuine Indian or Pakistani myth that you're sure the Greeks based their myth on, you just shouldn't use giant ants.

I see what you mean about Re', though. If you're using Sakhmet or Bastet or Pakhet as a minor deity, she could have Eye of Re' instead. As for Re', I'm out of ideas at the moment.

Meteors... I don't really know. You should research and find a deity that dealt with meteors. The Greeks seem to have considered them the same as lightning bolts, but actual lightning makes more sense for Zeus.

The major way that Gandharvas differ from centaurs in appearance is that they only have two legs. You can give them bird legs or horse legs or human legs, but they only have two regardless of what they look like. Also, I'd switch them to Sarasvati and give the Python thingy to Parvati... although considering there are other snake and dragon myth units already, what about giving Parvati the Yala/Vyali? They're quite unique-looking.

The Naga differ from dragons in appearance by having no legs and no wings, besides their multiple heads. The main Indian Dragon, Vritra, wasn't a Naga. For one thing, Nagas are benevolent and Vritra wasn't. Nagas are dragon-like, but they aren't the same as dragons.

In my opinion, the Jalebha is quite the unique beast. It's a mer-elephant! As long as you don't make the Makara look too elephant-like, nothing is going to resemble it. And the Makara can further differ from it by having four legs and being amphibious.

Anansi is Ashanti, not Soninke nor Malinke/Maninke or even Fula. Actually, it may be hard to find imperial Ghana deities, I don't know if they adopted writing before Islam. There may not be any records remaining about the pre-Muslim religion there, I don't know.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

The ant just isn't authentic, and I wouldn't assume that the Jungle Book material is an authentic representation of the myths either. I mean, orangutans in India? Unless you can find a genuine Indian or Pakistani myth that you're sure the Greeks based their myth on, you just shouldn't use giant ants.

i didnt say i was adding orangutans in as hindu units, i was just referencing that in an attempt to remind you, if you were unsure aboiut the bandar-log. again, i want to include the gold-digging ants because its a more interesting myth unit. i figured they would work well as a "swarming" myth unit and could also double as economic units, using their mandibles to dig out gold and otehr metals and carry it back to the civic center. the gold-digging ants were part of medieval bestiaries

The major way that Gandharvas differ from centaurs in appearance is that they only have two legs. You can give them bird legs or horse legs or human legs, but they only have two regardless of what they look like. Also, I'd switch them to Sarasvati and give the Python thingy to Parvati... although considering there are other snake and dragon myth units already, what about giving Parvati the Yala/Vyali? They're quite unique-looking.

care to elaborate on yala/vyali? im interested

The Naga differ from dragons in appearance by having no legs and no wings, besides their multiple heads. The main Indian Dragon, Vritra, wasn't a Naga. For one thing, Nagas are benevolent and Vritra wasn't. Nagas are dragon-like, but they aren't the same as dragons.

i guess i was mistaken there. ill just repalce the naga with vritra, then(already had it as a unit, but ill just change it around)

In my opinion, the Jalebha is quite the unique beast. It's a mer-elephant! As long as you don't make the Makara look too elephant-like, nothing is going to resemble it. And the Makara can further differ from it by having four legs and being amphibious.

ill put jalebha down as a naval myth unit then for ganesha; the hindus need more naval myth units, anyway. i think for the game ill try basing the makara's appear, at least in concept art, on an early semi-aquatic whale. i mean, just compare the two and tell me they dont look at all alike:

plus, there ARE actual fossil remains from the area that teh IVC was present in of an ambulocetid whale, called Maiacetus. keep in mind that what we're technically deriving this from is the indus valley civilization and not later hindu societies, and the IVC, though present in india, was centered more in what is now pakistan

and i WAS planning to have the makara be amphibious, trained on land but going into water as well. jalebha, however, would be strictly naval

Anansi is Ashanti, not Soninke nor Malinke/Maninke or even Fula. Actually, it may be hard to find imperial Ghana deities, I don't know if they adopted writing before Islam. There may not be any records remaining about the pre-Muslim religion there, I don't know.

yeah, anansi is kind of a stretch, but he's from western africa, so im currently counting him towards it all

EDIT: oh, and i had yet another idea for a single player scenario. basically, its a world domination scenario, and EVERY faction is present in it all at the same time, each in different parts of an at least relatively accurate map of the world. the goal is just to take over the entire world by wiping out every other civilization so that only yours is present. here's what i have as ideas for where each civilization would start out. it could also be that there is variation for more unpredictable gameplay, so ill list other ideas relating to it as well:

Celts: southeastern England, New Brunswick, or Oregon

Egyptians: Sierra Leone, east-central Mozambique, or Egypt

Greeks: Macedonia, southern Spain, or eastern Brazil

Mesopotamians: Iraq, Somalia, or northeastern Yucatan

Norse: Labrador, western Norway, or northern coastal Argentina

Aztecs: Texas, southwestern Mexico, or Venezuela

Chinese: western Mongolia, souther China (around Hong Kong), or Malaysia

Cro-Magnons: Yukon, northeastern Russia, or Ecuador

Hindus: southeastern Pakistan, southernmost India, or Cambodia

Japanese: Japan, northernmost Pacific Russia, or western New Guinea

Christians: New Jersey, Florida, or eastern Brazil (seperate from the aforementioned Greek Brazil)

Hittites: Turkey, western Kazakhstan bordering the Caspian Sea, or Oman

Persians: Ethiopia, Afghanistan, or northernmost Kazakstan

Romans: southeastern France, eastern Germany, or southeastern Brazil

Semites: Tunisia, southern Kenya, or Madagascar

Polynesians: New South Wales (Australia), Indonesian Borneo, or Chile

Slavs: central Siberia, southern Ukraine, or southern Finland

Soninke: Morocco, Nigeria, or the Cape of Good Hope (South Africa)

yeah, pretty much none of it is at all accurate, but thats not the point, the point is just to give a good amount of space between civilizations so that they have room to expand. it would be a provincial map and settlements would probably be located on the locations of the largest cities in each region if the area is very large, otherwise just the capitol of that area. each section of the world would, generally, have its own unique ecosystem. if programming allows it, certain types of weather could become prominent in different parts of teh map during different seasons. what i myself would really like would be the ocean freezing at certain parts of teh map during the winter. also if applicable, there should be teleport points on the map that indiscriminately transport units from one side of the map to the other, simulating a round planet as opposed to a flat game board so, for example, during the winter, you could send an army over the Bering Land Bridge from Alaska into Siberia to strike a civilization just over the sea instead of having to march them across the entire map. alternatively, the entire thing could be set in an ice age in which the entire world freezes over during the winter, completely freezing over some of the world's seas and lakes and creating land bridges, so that, instead of creating a navy, someone who has a base in china could instead just make a large army of foot soldiers and cavalry and then march them over a new land bridge in indonesia during the winter to attack australia. ideally, there would also be other natural entities and occurences, such as migrations and natural disasters, like occasionally meteor storms that strike the map at random. these could even possibly be special meteor godpowers created just for the map that not only destroy what they hit but also leave cool meteorites and introduce alien life forms or plagues into the area a la Andromeda Strain. also, many natural landforms would also be present, creating defensible or easily taken areas that can end up being highly desirable. for example, the Central Asian Steppe could be made into a gigantic stronghold from which the player could launch a campaign to take over all of Russia, or Spain, defended by mountains on the north and sea on all other sides, could be used as a forward base to invade Africa or America

Edited April 24, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Making the gold-digging ant a combined economic/military unit is a good and interesting idea. I'm trying to find an Indian myth or artwork about it.

I raised the orangutan issue just to point out that the Jungle Book movie can't be trusted. I know you didn't mention adding orangs.

Vyali or Yala is an animal depicted in sculptures in India. The similar-looking Tukka-Tor and Kochasri are depicted in some Thai art. According to this website: http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_vyali_mukha.htm they can have the head of some other animal such as a horse or human. I don't have a clue how accurate this website is, though. I just found it while searching for Yala.

The multi-headed Naga could still be used as a myth unit, and in fact, since Vritra was always an enemy of the gods, having him granted by the gods as an ally makes less sense then having them grant Nagas. The Naga can differ mechanically from the Hydra by not being so poisonous, and by being fully amphibious. I don't really think a serpent is less unique than a dragon, since I'm sure you're using other dragon myths. Nagas are also depicted with human torsos, and according to that website Varuna is their king (it also says that the word Naga is used for dragons as well, which surprises me): http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm

The crocodile and early whales do look similar, due to convergent evolution. The early whales evolved to fill a similar niche to the crocodile: living in shallow water, lying mostly submerged and ambushing prey that came to drink. Authentic/genuine Makara imagery combines the crocodile with other animals, for example they can have a fishtail, or a short trunk/proboscis on their nose, or horns, or a snake-like body with or without legs. That website also has Makara info, with some elephant-headed makara images: http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_makaras1.htm

I suppose that if they have the rear end of a snake or crocodile, they can go on land (unlike the Jalebha).

I don't think it's possible to use the Indus Valley civilization as a basis for anything remotely accurate, since their writing is undeciphered and the only things we know about their myths are a few hard-to-interpret pieces of art. They're like the Minoans: fertile ground for fiction and speculation, but very little definite information. The classical Hindus provide you with far more material to work with, and the gods you are using are already Hindu, as are most of your myth units.

EDIT: Ants. I searched for info about the ants, and fortunately there was an Indian source for the Greek myth! Herodotus says that they are larger than foxes but smaller than dogs, and they are fast and dangerous. His story was apparently inspired by a phrase in the Mahabharata. The word pipilika ("ant-gold") is a metaphor for gold dust. In a 19th century translation of Book 2 I found a mention of gold that had been excavated by ants. There was no mention of the size of the ants, nor of their killing people or camels: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02051.htm I think it's reasonable for them to be combat units in swarms, but I think their economic abilities should be much greater than their military prowess.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

Making the gold-digging ant a combined economic/military unit is a good and interesting idea. I'm trying to find an Indian myth or artwork about it.

I raised the orangutan issue just to point out that the Jungle Book movie can't be trusted. I know you didn't mention adding orangs.

yeah, i figured. i was just referencing the orangutan from the film to give you an idea about which monkeys i was referring to; the bandar-log and other kipling-inspired myth units are all based on the original novel(for that matter, theres also a reference to kaa, who was actually one of mogli's protagonistic teachers in the book and not a villain) who is present as a siege myth unit(because he smashed down a temple wall in the novel) and also doubles as a scout with expanding line of sight while idle)

The multi-headed Naga could still be used as a myth unit, and in fact, since Vritra was always an enemy of the gods, having him granted by the gods as an ally makes less sense then having them grant Nagas. The Naga can differ mechanically from the Hydra by not being so poisonous, and by being fully amphibious. I don't really think a serpent is less unique than a dragon, since I'm sure you're using other dragon myths. Nagas are also depicted with human torsos, and according to that website Varuna is their king (it also says that the word Naga is used for dragons as well, which surprises me): http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm

well im not going for perfect mythical accuracy with ANY of the factions: the norse, for instance, have several jotunn (norse giants) as myth units even though the jotunn were the sworn enemies of the norse gods. i think ill be keeping vritra as a myth unitm possibly amphibious, and put down nagas as a false faction instead. i also wasnt planning to make the hydra at all poisonous for the purposes of the game, at least not by default(maybe there could be some technology that upgrades it with venom, i dunno), and i wasnt really planning for multiple heads to be vritra's improvement. see, as with AOM, im planning that most or all myth units, when upgraded with specific technologies, change their name and appearance. for instance, in AOM, when a centaur was upgraded, he became a "Centaur Polemarch" and his appearance was changed: though retaining the same basic model, he acquired a cuirass and helmet signifying that he had been upgraded, and when Trolls were upgraded, they acquired a second head. these are all cosmetic improvements and dont really have any impact on the game.

The crocodile and early whales do look similar, due to convergent evolution. The early whales evolved to fill a similar niche to the crocodile: living in shallow water, lying mostly submerged and ambushing prey that came to drink. Authentic/genuine Makara imagery combines the crocodile with other animals, for example they can have a fishtail, or a short trunk/proboscis on their nose, or horns, or a snake-like body with or without legs. That website also has Makara info, with some elephant-headed makara images: http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_makaras1.htm

I suppose that if they have the rear end of a snake or crocodile, they can go on land (unlike the Jalebha).

if variation between units is possible, it could be that the makara have one basic model resembling an ambulocetid whale and theres random variables that determine whether or not they also have a fish-tail an elephant-trunk, horns, etc.

I don't think it's possible to use the Indus Valley civilization as a basis for anything remotely accurate, since their writing is undeciphered and the only things we know about their myths are a few hard-to-interpret pieces of art. They're like the Minoans: fertile ground for fiction and speculation, but very little definite information. The classical Hindus provide you with far more material to work with, and the gods you are using are already Hindu, as are most of your myth units.

i guess youre right about that. maybe they could instead be dated to alexander's time. ill try looking into that.

EDIT: Ants. I searched for info about the ants, and fortunately there was an Indian source for the Greek myth! Herodotus says that they are larger than foxes but smaller than dogs, and they are fast and dangerous. His story was apparently inspired by a phrase in the Mahabharata. The word pipilika ("ant-gold") is a metaphor for gold dust. In a 19th century translation of Book 2 I found a mention of gold that had been excavated by ants. There was no mention of the size of the ants, nor of their killing people or camels: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02051.htm I think it's reasonable for them to be combat units in swarms, but I think their economic abilities should be much greater than their military prowess.

fascinating! i was thinking of giving some generic ant-like abilities to them, like allowing them to cross rough terrain with ease, even traversing cliffs that regular soldiers cannot, maybe becoming more powerful in groups, and, after an upgrade, perhaps exploding in a burst of chemicals like certain kinds of army ants are known to do

EDIT: ive looked into it and decided that maybe the best time period for the hindus would be Iron Age India. as a whole, this covers the time from 1200bc to 272bc. this dates from just after the IVC to around the time alexander invaded, and also gives us many more options with demigods. war elephants of some kind are pretty much a must, but there can also be a longbowman unit. however, that means id have to come up with a new demigod for brigantia because i dont want to directly repeat units very much(which makes me think, maybe war mastodon isnt that good of an idea for the cro-magnons after all). unfortunately, the famous rajput warrior is out of reach by about a thousand years, give or take.

EDIT to EDIT: i also came across the Vimana, a mythological flying machine supposedly present in ancient india. y'think it could have any place as a myth unit or super unit?

Edited April 27, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Ants going up cliffs... if it's possible to program, why not?

I think Anancus are different enough from elephants that using them is still about as reasonable as a fictional "myth" unit gets. Unless you just don't want to have that many proboscidian cavalry units, period.

I have heard of Vimana, but what I found about them on the internet is from pseudoscientific conspiracy types who claim that Vimana are evidence of UFOs, or of prehistoric airplanes armed with atomic bombs, or claim the ancient Egyptians had helicopters (and use photoshopped hieroglyphs to "prove" it). I don't trust the translations and interpretations of the original texts produced by such folks.

I haven't seen anything trustworthy about them from a scholarly source interested in a faithful translation, so I don't know whether they're actually separate from the flying chariots employed by Hindu, Greek, Norse, Slavic, Baltic, etc. gods to get to and from Earth. I just haven't done the research.

I can try to see if there's anything about them on JSTOR, and tell you if I find anything. But I'd stay away from teh internets about this topic... *shudder*

EDIT: Since it seems you are set on it, may I ask why you want to avoid using the mythological Makara as a myth unit, and would rather use Ambulocetus instead?

Edited April 27, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

with the makara, thats more my inner paleo-nut talking. in terms of a basic design, they would be based on an ambulocetid (more specifically, Maiacetus) but i would conform to the mythological description as much as possible. yknow, i actually dont like how, in fiction, people on other planets refer to dinosaurs they see in their everyday lives by their scientific names and not by a more common name. i guess thats kinda the appeal that makara have to me: they provide a really good common name for ambuolcetid whales

with the ants, i dont think itll be much of a problem. in fact, i think the programming is more that it prevents a unit from walking on certain terrain, ie cliffs, and that would just need to be reversed for the ants and certain other units that can also cross tough terrain or water, like the celtic pendragon myth unit(just a big dragon, to remind you), the christian cherub, and the chinese yeti

its not so much that i want to really keep elephants out of the game altogether, but that i just dont want to overuse them; if a war elephant comes in for more than one faction, which it will, then i want to try to differentiate them, keep the egyptian, carthaginian, persian, hindu, etc elephants as unique as possible. maybe hindu elephants could pick up a single soldier with its trunk and throw him, maybe persian ones could impale enemies, who knows? oh! that reminds me! (goes to fix up semitic demigods) i decided to on a few Northwest Semitic demigods: the one available to all of the major gods is Sacred Band, a more professional citizen-soldier that has a bonus against heavy infantry; Tanit (Phoenicia/Carthage) has a war elephant(no name yet); and Dagon (Canaanites) have the Champion (in reference to Goliath). i dont have one for Yahweh(Hebrews) just yet

vimana was just an idea, if it would tip the balance too far in the hindus direction, it wont be implemented. maybe it could be an editor-only unit instead, and not be a part of regular gameplay?

now flying chariots, THERES an idea. i had an idea for an apollo unit a long time ago, Sun Chariot, which was a minor solar divinity leading a chariot apollo had made and shooting rays of concentrated heat. i decided to drop that one, but maybe some kind of flying chariot would be a good idea for the semitic faction; im still missing some myth units for them, and flying fiery chariots are present in the old testament, iirc

EDIT: for the semitic elephant demigod, what do you think would be a better name? "Surus" ('The Syrian', in reference to hannibal's personal elephant) or just "Punic Elephant" (in reference to the punic wars, and "punic" means "phoenician")?

Edited April 27, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Well there's lots of Makara art, not just descriptions. If you really want an ambulocetid, instead of mixing the Makara with Maiacetus, how about giving it to the "Cro-Magnon" faction, since you're already giving them even older fossils such as marine reptiles? You said the Cro-Magnons need more naval myths, and then you can give Makaras and Jalebhas to the Indians.

I searched for Makara images (be warned if you search, there's some internet porn under that name too ) and here are some good references:

http://www.chiangmai1.com/chiang_mai/sub/n...nd_makara.shtml (horned Naga emerging from mouth of Makara)

http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/01219/Chnsmyth.html (several pictures, including a leopard-footed, crocodile-like full-body image)

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/features/10-07/features811.htm (2 or 3 Makaras (one might just be a fish) near bottom of page)

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/sri-lanka/polonnaruwa.htm (Makara carvings, with "water" coming from their mouths)

http://sites.google.com/site/kalyan97/_/rs...phs/makara8.jpg (full-body)

http://www.call-of-the-sea.com/myths/images/makara_01.jpg (full-body fish-Makara)

http://www.call-of-the-sea.com/myths/images/makara_02.gif (full-body Jalebha)

http://www.ancientindia.co.uk/buddha/explore/pilo2_b5b.html (full-body)

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/carving.htm (full-body at bottom of page)

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/aria/aria_assets/AK-MAK-247? (head only)

http://www.artknowledgenews.com/Rossi_Ross..._Himalayas.html (head only)

http://www.nhb.gov.sg/www/top15.html (head only, Southeast Asian)

http://nga.gov.au/CrescentMoon/details/makara.cfm (head only, Southeast Asian)

http://www.ackland.org/art/collection/asian/87.50.html (head only, Thai)

http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz140/s...llau/makara.jpg (head only, Javan)

Also, random discovery, winged lions/leogryphs are called Singha Bersayap in some south or southeast Asian language -- I don't know which one.

With elephants, I see what you mean -- if every other faction has them, they aren't so special anymore. It shouldn't be too hard to avoid overusing them if you stick with only giving them to cultures that historically used them (maybe plus the Cro-Magnons). I'm not an expert on military elephants (but somebody on the 0 A.D. team may be). I think only the Carthaginians, Persians, Indians, and some peoples of Southeast Asia (such as Thai and Cambodians) used elephants in war. Mechanically, the biggest differences between them could be size (Persians had the largest elephants, Indians had the smallest specimens), how they were used by their respective factions, and what sort of soldiers were put on top (spears or ranged weapons?). As far as I know the Egyptians and Semitic peoples (other than Carthaginians) did not use them. I don't know of any Semitic elephant god, but I'm no expert on their pantheon(s).

I'll try to find information about Vimanas. I hadn't thought about balance, but since they're completely imaginary, hopefully there'd be some leeway for you to adjust their abilities. They would definitely have to belong to the last game phase, though.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

well here's the wikipedia article on war elephants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_elephant

it lists egyptians as having used elephants, but perhaps at a later time than the egyptian faction dates, so i could take them off.

i think maybe i should also clarify that demigods/super units are put into two categories: city phase demigods, which are available to all players of that faction, and empire phase demigods, which are unique to each major god. for the semitic faction, only Tanit gets war elephants. Mahouts (hindu war elephants) are available to the entire hindu faction. since ive already decided that the city phase demigod for the persians is the Scythed Chariot, only one of their major gods will get a war elephant. some quick research shows that it was the romans that utilized elephant archers, so maybe ill give that ability to the semites since theyre the closest to that and because i dont really want to give the romans an elephant. i also decided to give the semitic war elephant the passive "Pathfinding" ability, which makes it so that they arent slowed by tough weather or rough terrain, meaning that they would be able to march effectively even during a sandstorm or a blizzard, and also that they can move to certain depths in water and maybe even a short distance onto cliff terrains, all in reference to hannibal taking his elephants over the alps.

btw, i know that the scythed chariot may be anachronistic, but my research shows that the persians were the ones who pioneered the design. if its TOO anachronistic, ill transfer the scythed chariot over to either the mesopotamians or egyptians

btw, here;s what ive come up with so far for demigods for each faction:

1. Lambton Knight (Celts, Toutatis only): fully-armored and spiky swordsman
   
2. Painted Warrior/Woad Raider (Celts, Beira only): a ferocious scottish warrior wielding a claymore, i havent come up with an ability for him yet
   
3. "Egyptian War Elephant" (Egyptians, this one may be dropped)
   
4. Argonaut (Greeks): greek sailor that doesnt count towards the garrison limit of ships or buildings, and can also swim short distances into shallow water
   
5. Myrmidon (Greeks, Zeus-only): legendary infantry warrior, i havent come up with anything for this guy yet
   
6. Companion Cavalry (Greeks, Poseidon-only): famed macedonian cavalry, i havent come up with anything for this guy yet
   
7. Scythian Archer (Greeks, Hades-only): historical cavalry archer that occasionally fires a single arrow with 100% accuracy
   
8. Berserker (Norse): historical warrior that occasionally rampages about to hurt all enemies within reach, but loses some health in the process
   
9. Throwing-axeman (Norse, Odin only): technically celtic but more fitting of the norse, he does special splash damage with his axe
   
10. Hersir (Norse, Loki only): i havent come up with anything for this guy yet
    
11. Eagle Warrior (Aztecs): i havent come up with anything for this guy yet
    
12. Shorn One (Aztecs, Quetzalcoatl only): historical aztec elite warrior society who were punished with death if they took even a single step back in battle. after going off to attack something, whether it be by command or by seeing an enemy, you cannot issue any more commands until they become idle on their own
    
13. Chu-ke nu (Chinese): well it wouldnt be a chinese faction if it didnt have the famous repeating crossbow! has a high rate of fire and deals alot of damage, and can even effectively take on siege weapons in groups
    
14. Dragon Rocket (Chinese, Ying Zheng only): working title, this guy is basically a siege infantryman, utilizing primitive gunpowder rockets to, in three words, blow @#$% up. he's very powerful, but his accuracy is bad, he gets hit with recoil whenever he fires, and has no other means of attack. though not necessarily accurate, i figured more technologically advanced soldiers are the best choice for the chinese, and that gunpowder units would be really good to help them out. the lack of a regular attack and poor accuracy is for balance.
    
15. Mahout (Hindu): war elephant, no special ability thus far other than being able to trample enemies(that meaning it hurts adjacent enemies while in motion, alot of the larger cavalry and numerous myth units also have this ability)
    
16. Longbowman (Hindu, Indra only): working title, occasionally fires a single arrow with 100% accuracy
    
17. Kanabo Warrior (Japanese, Izanami only): a powerful japanese warrior, possibly a samurai, in thick armor and wielding a kanabo. a kanabo was a very heavy japanese weapon that was essentially a metallic staff. its weight made it very unwieldy and it was said that only oni were strong enough to use them effectively. the kanabo warrior her utilizes it to smash enemies, and has teh special ability of ignoring the inherent armor of units, though any special upgrades that they may have are still brought into account
    
18. Morningstar (Christian): may be reassigned to a specific god, uses a secret stash of holy water to deal more damage to myth units in a single blow
    
19. Thracian Warrior (Hittites, Tarhunt only): yeah, i recently fixed up the hittite pantheon. the thracian warrior is a barbarian swordsman, but he has a special javelin attack in reference to teh famous thracian peltasts. i made him a swordsman with a javelin attack because i didnt want him to have the same ability as the next hittite demigod:
    
20. Amazon Warrior (Hittites, Arinna only): thoughh the amazons come from greek mythology, they supposedly lived in asia minor, which is where the hittites dominated. also, the amazons--and the thracians, for that matter--were supposedly allied to the trojans. the amazons use two weapons interchangeably: they start off with a bow, but when enemies get within a certain distance, theyll switch out and use a sword(or a spear; whichever is more accurate). amazon horsewomen arent present though, at least not in regular gameplay.
    
21. Scythed Chariot (Persians): may be transferred to a different faction, deals damage to flanking enemies while in motion
    
22. Gladiator (Romans): i havent come up with anything for this guy yet, but they have different appearances for each major god: Vesta's looks like a hoplomachus, Quirinus has the murmillo, and Mars has the thraex. though they look different, they all function the same.
    
23. Legioanry (Romans, Quirinus only)
    
24. Praetorian Guard (Romans, Vesta only) :: im actually having alot of trouble with teh roman demigods, trying to decide who gets what. this is all subject to change.
    
25. Sacred Band (Semites): originally Tanit's specific unit, i decided to make this guy the collective semitic unit. anyway, he's a citizen soldier, so he can gather resources, and also has a bonus versus heavy infantry because of the famous theban sacred band that was able to defeat the mighty spartan warriors
    
26. Surus/Punic Elephant (Semites, Tanit only): the aforementioned carthaginian elephant
    
27. Champion (Semites, Dagon only): the aforementioned canaanite unit, i havent come up with anything for him yet
    
28. Leiomano (Polynesians, Hi'iaka only): sharktooth clubman
    
29. Taiaha (Polynesians, Rongo only): Maori warrior with a staff
    
30. Stingray Spearman (Polynesians, Makemake only): fictionalized warrior from Easter Island :: ideally, the leiomano and stringray spearman would have the same ability, but i dont really want to do that, so im kinda having some trouble here as well
    
31. Mameluke (Soninke, Allah-only): a cavalryman. i havent come up with anything else for the mameluke yet
    

[Aldandil]

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia's word for anything. If you see something interesting or potentially useful on Wikipedia, it's better to go to its sources listed at the bottom of the page. Or just ask the 0 A.D. research people about war elephants; one of them surely knows all about them, who had them, and when.

Likewise, if the throwing-axeman is Celtic, why do you say that he is "more fitting" for the Norse? If the Norse didn't historically have such soldiers, or at least have myths of such soldiers, then I don't think their faction should have them.

I'm also confused why the Theban Sacred Band is given to the Semites instead of the Greeks. It works with people who were allies of the Hittites or Trojans, or who supposedly lived in Asia Minor (although I think Thracian peltasts also fought for the Greeks, as well) but when did the Thebans serve the Phoenicians or Syrians?

Basically, you have a lot of good ideas, most of which I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on. But in my opinion if something departs from accuracy, I prefer a systematic reason (ie, necessary for game balance) that still makes sense in the context. If this mod were made accurately, it would kick much butt and I would want to try it. But if it was inaccurate, I would find it much less appealing. I think that making it as accurate as possible, in addition to (eventually) adding more factions, is what could really set this apart from AoM.

Edit: Leiomano and stingray-spear: isn't the sharktooth club more of a sword-type weapon? How long were they, what was their reach? Did the stingray spears retain their venom after the animal died? The two weapons might just work differently (but I don't know).

EDIT 2: So far, according to the journals I'm finding in JSTOR, the word vimāna has several uses (the first I list is the relevant one for the myth units):

1. A flying chariot or "aerial vehicle" used by a god or a gandharva (Classical Sanskrit)(the myth unit)

2. a shrine or tower in a temple (Classical Sanskrit)(seems to be the most common meaning)

3. the palace of a human emperor (Classical Sanskrit)

4. the palace of a god living in the celestial/heavenly realm (Pali, Jaina Prakrit)

So far I haven't gotten any descriptions of the flying vehicles, so I can only say that some of them are chariots, presumably wheeled and pulled by (flying) animals. Supposedly, one is mentioned in the Skanda Purana.

There's also something in a play about a yogeshvara "magician" using a "contemplation" vimana (conjured by meditation??) to magically summon a girl from another city by some sort of teleportation. I don't have a clue what that's supposed to mean.

Evidently the 11th-century Sanscrit text Samarāńgana Sūtradhāra is the one that describes flying vehicles (called vyomacāri-vihańga yantra, ākāśagāmīdārumaya vimāna yantram and vāyu yantra) and other machines in ch. 31 -- which has inspired pseudoscientific nonsense about "mercury vortex engines" and "charged sheath vortex tornado fusion drives" (they sound like something from a bad anime!) and prehistoric airplanes. I'm going to try to find a good translation of this work.

EDIT 3: The only Samarāńgana Sūtradhāra translation book I've found in a quick search of pretty much all nearby public libraries (we have an awesome local interlibrary loan system) is from 1966. That's probably more recent than anything professional that would have been posted online, but not as recent as I'd prefer. The advantage of this book is that it also discusses architecture and ships, which could be useful for buildings and historical units. Its usefulness in those regards will depend on the time period you want for the Indian faction.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Aldandil