post-0 AD idea: mythology

[oshron]

ill look into that

what do you think about the rest of it, though? the myth units and such?

ive also pretty much got the greek units down. since the mythology greeks are from roughly the same time period as in 0ad, they have roughly the same units: the hoplite, peltast, toxotes, and hippeus as their regular soldiers and the penteconter and trireme as their ships. i havvent recopied the siege yet.

the differences start with their heroes and super units. now, since its just the poleis that are being employed by the greek culture, they have ones more fitting of that:

-- Argonaut: an infantry swordsman that has a slight bonus against myth units. he also has the unique trait of not counting towards your population limit and not taking any space when garrisoned into a building, ship, etc, meaning you can have the maximum number of soldiers in a ship as well as argonauts. to balance this, you can only have 10 argonauts at any time

-- Scythian Archer: a cavalry archer that fires with greater accuracy than other soldiers. though they werent from greece, they WERE employed as mercenaries by many peoples. this may be a bit of a stretch. again, we dont need to be absolutely accurate, but if scythian archers are taken off and added to a different culture (slavs, maybe?) they could be replaced by macedonian companion cavalry.

spartan super units are not included with the greeks because one of their minor gods, Ares, grants a godpower that transforms soldiers in an area into Spartan warriors: Spartan Hoplite, Spartan Peltast, Spartan Toxotes, Spartan Hippeus, and so on. yes, yes, i know that the spartans themselves didnt use ranged weapons and instead had their helots employing those weapons, but having it like that just overcomplicates things, so they would ALL be spartans. the power could also potentially work on non-Greek units or units that the greeks dont normally acquire, like if in a scenario the greeks are just GIVEN slingers or something and the power is used on them, theyd become "Spartan Slingers", something like that

here;s what i have for heroes, as well:

Zeus' heroes

-- Jason (infantry swordsman, no special)

-- Odysseus (infantry archer, switches to sword for close-quarters fighting)

-- Leonidas (infantry spearman, yells a battlecry)

-- Bellerophon (cavalry spearman, flies over terrain, cliffs, and water on pegasus and occasionally soars higher in a "leap attack")

-- Heracles (infantry swordsman, does more damage vs. buildings, ships, and siege, and will occasionally "go berserk" and hurt all enemies near him)

Poseidon's heroes

-- Theseus (infantry swordsman, no special)

-- Hippolyta (infantry archer, occasionally fires two arrows at once)

-- Atalanta (infantry spearman, runs faster than all other greek units--including cavalry and siege, and has a bonus vs. cavalry)

-- [im actually missing a fourth hero for poseidon. the only one that comes to mind is Alexander, since poseidon emphasizes cavalry, but id prefer to have someone else]

-- Polyphemus (cyclops, will ocassionally pick up an enemy unit and throw it at other enemy units to greater effect than regular cyclopes)

Hades' heroes

-- Ajax (infantry swordsman or spearman, higher than normal armor)

-- Orpheus (specialized hero, cant attack, but plays songs on his lyre for different effects: boost allied morale, lower enemy morale, or make a single enemy myth unit fall asleep for a short time)

-- Chiron (cavalry archer/centaur, will occasionally fire three arrows at once with perfect accuracy)

-- Perseus (infantry swordsman, will occasionally lift up the head of Medusa to turn a single enemy myth unit to stone, killing it instantly)

-- Achilles (infantry swordsman or spearman, no special attack, but is practically indestructible)

i also came up with the idea that, for Heroic cultures (like teh greeks) their heroes never really "die" but instead fall unconscious a la AOM and will only revive when there are more friendly units around them than enemies. alternatively, if you have a hospital, they will automatically revive there instead of out in the field. on non-provincial maps, it would be at your first hospital, but on provincial maps, it would only happen if they "died" in a territory that has a hospital in it

EDIT: here's the new arthurian names. its now all in welsh, except for a few remaining modern english words

Gleddyfwr (Swordsman)

Thryferu (Spearman)

Saethwr (Archer)

Hatodeg (Cavalry Swordsman)

Farchog (Cavalry Spearman)

Nynes (Female Citizen)

Fasnachwr (Trader)

Farcnatawr Llong (Merchant Ship)

Rwyflong (Bireme)

Rhyfela Llong (Trireme)

Hyrddio (Onager) ** this word basically means "to throw" and it appeared no less than three times connected to different words when i translated "catapult" into welsh, so thats why i chose this one

Maharen (Ram)

Lambton Knight/Lambton Farchog

Mounted Knight ** this one still requires a welsh translation, but i want a better english name first, since the Arthurian cavalry spear is already called Farchog

King/Brenin

Druid/Dderwydd

Thref (Civic Center)

Cartref (House)

Hysgubor (Granary)

Maes (Field)

Hystabl (Corral)

Hystorfa (Storehouse)

Ragorsaf (Outpost)

Furiwch (Wall)

Porth (Gate)

Thocio (Dock)

Hysbyty (Hospital)

Gwersylltai (Barracks)

Caer (Fortress)

Melonas (Special Building 1) ** still requires a welsh name

ive also given a specific name to the tree that the celts use to generate favor: Bren, just a welsh word meaning "tree"

Edited April 2, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

I honestly can't comment at all on the Celtic material. I know almost nothing about their myths, and I know absolutely nothing about game balance for games like this.

If you want to add some interesting human heroes for myth units, complete with unique superhuman abilities, you could try to find a copy of the Mabinogion at your local library or online. Culhwch and Olwen (in the Mabinogion) is one of the oldest known Arthurian stories, originally in Welsh, and is full of random and sometimes obscure heroes with weird powers. Kei (Sir Kay) and Bedwyr (Sir Bedivere) are also in there, with weird abilities, though as far as I can remember, Kei's powers aren't all that useful in combat -- I think he can hold his breath for a long time underwater, and heat up tea with his bare hands. Or maybe he has a special sword, I can't remember. Bedwyr has a magic spear that does nifty stuff.

The Greek myth units look good. Poseidon's other unit could be Aiolos, who can work as an infantry spear (or maybe sword instead?) and can summon the four Anemoi (winds) to mess with naval units. However that might be too powerful an ability. Maybe it could be balanced by messing up your own naval units as well (a storm is a storm...), but that might make the ability useless instead.

Which other Greek gods did you write up? You mentioned Ares.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

lemme check.......

for advancement into the Town Phase, theres Hermes (focuses on cavalry), Demeter (focuses on agriculture), and Aphrodite (focuses on economy)

for advancement into the City Phase, theres Hephaestus (focuses on armory, this would be the armor advancement from the military center/barracks), Apollo (focuses on Archer units and the temple), and Ares (focuses on melee soldiers, this would be both infantry and cavalry)

for advancement into the Empire Phase(which i suggest would be introduced in the second official release of the original game), theres Athena (focuses on mortal defenses, like soldier shields and walls), Hera (focuses on walls and towers), and Artemis (focuses on Archer units and hunting capabilities)

for advancement into the Legend Phase(the last phase), theres Helios (focuses on towers and livestock), Hekate (focuses on myth units), and Persephone (also focuses on myth units)

here's what i have for greek myth units, btw:

HERMES

--Centaur (cavalry archer that occasionally fires an arrow with 100% accuracy, boosted right out of AOM)

--Ichthyocentaur (essentially a naval version of the regular centaur, included because i wanted to give the greeks another naval myth unit)

DEMETER

--Hamadryad (wood nymph that turns into a tree while idle and will sometimes turn enemies into trees permanently during battle)

APHRODITE

--Harpy (flying raider that can pick up foot soldiers and citizens to drop them to their deaths as well as steal any resources they were holding)

HEPHAESTUS

--Cyclops (one-eyed giant that can pick up and throw enemies at other enemies, copied from AOM)

APOLLO

--Hydra (starts with one head and grows more as it kills enemies, also copied from AOM)

--Karkinos (giant enemy crab, attack its weakpoint for massive damage its actual abilities are that it is an amphibious naval myth unit, meaning its spawned in the water but can go onto land as well and fight there. though this guy was also in AOM, he has different abilities here)

ARES

--Stymphalian Bird (another flying myth unit, also borrowed from AOM, it shoots metallic fathers to attack at range and does more damage to buildings, in reference to their toxic dung. they are more vulnerable to ranged attacks than other flying units)

ATHENA

--Minotaur (essentially a buffed-up version of the minotaur from AOM, it will ram/gore enemies occasionally to send them flying)

HERA

--Nemean Lion (another one borrowed from AOM, it roars to send adjacent enemies flying and damage all enemies nearby, and also has more armor versus projectile attacks)

ARTEMIS

--Erymanthian Boar (this one is far more basic than other units, to compensate for Artemis' godpower being very powerful. i havent come up with an effect yet, maybe he just barrels through enemies and sends them flying)

HELIOS

--Colossus (more fitting than in AOM but essentially the same, the Colossus is a giant bronze warrior that smashes buildings with a huge sword, and will essentially be the toughest unit in the game even if it isnt THE most powerful. they can restore health by eating trees and mineral resources, and maybe they could also be partially amphibious so that they wade into water up to a certain depth

HEKATE

--Medusa (also boosted from AOM, though possibly having a more accurate appearance of actually being a snake-haired woman rather than resembling medusa from Clash of the Titans. she'll occasionally stare at a single enemy to turn them to stone, or perhaps a group of enemies by doing a "splash" effect. its basically a better version of perseus' ability because it affects more than one unit of any kind, instead of just myth units)

PERSEPHONE

--Chimera (again, taken right off AOM, the chimera is not only powerful but will occasionally spit fire from its snake head over a wide area. incidentally, the celtic Dullahan unit can also do this)

[Aldandil]

Looks good. I think that Dionysos is a better choice than Helios, mainly because he had far, far more worship than Helios. He could focus on agriculture, special buildings, and maybe the economy, or on reducing the effectiveness of debuffs against the Greek units. You can give livestock to him or to Hermes. His myth units could be centaurs (instead of Hermes), satyrs, or mainades (maenads), who are actually a lot scarier than they sound. I'd also switch the order in which the player gets favor from Hephaistos and Athene; I think they should get Athene first.

Some of the myth units don't really fit all that well with the god who provides them, but it's not always easy to find something that fits, since several Greek gods don't have any fantastic creatures associated with them. I'd consider giving Medusa wings and making her fly (which is how she's depicted in ancient Greek art), and maybe giving Karkinos to Hera. Another option for Hera is Argos Panoptes. I'm not sure what he would do, other than being a really good melee unit and almost as large as a Cyclops, but if individual units have different perception levels, he can see very far in every direction thanks to his 100 eyes. Sirens are associated with Demeter and Persephone more than Hamadryads are: they can basically perch somewhere and lure enemy units away from battle and within range of their claws. Persephone could have Medusa, and a different option for Hekate are ghosts or Lamiai: they could sneak into enemy areas in disguise and then ambush them. Apollo could send the drakaina Poine instead of the Lernaean Hydra. She's got the rear half of a snake or dragon, the upper half of a woman, and snakes for hair.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

Looks good. I think that Dionysos is a better choice than Helios, mainly because he had far, far more worship than Helios.

well helios is pretty powerful in mythology: mess with his cows, and youre @#$%ed

id LIKE to keep dionysus, but i found he wasnt as important as some of the others. and besides, he's not even an olympian, really; he just replaces hestia since he's better known, but he's still not an olympian. for that matter, i also had to drop hestia(who benefited buildings) and morpheus (who focused on myth units). it may also be for the best that some of those deities arent included here, because then they can be used for the romans without pretty much copying the greeks; thats another thing that i want to do

I'd also switch the order in which the player gets favor from Hephaistos and Athene; I think they should get Athene first.

athena was more important, though, being the patron of athens and whatnot. besides, this aso helps differentiate it from AOM, in which athena was an earlier god for the greeks and hephaestus was a later one(in that game, hephaestus was the one that had the colossus unit and ares had the cyclops).

Some of the myth units don't really fit all that well with the god who provides them, but it's not always easy to find something that fits, since several Greek gods don't have any fantastic creatures associated with them. I'd consider giving Medusa wings and making her fly (which is how she's depicted in ancient Greek art), and maybe giving Karkinos to Hera. Another option for Hera is Argos Panoptes. I'm not sure what he would do, other than being a really good melee unit and almost as large as a Cyclops, but if individual units have different perception levels, he can see very far in every direction thanks to his 100 eyes. Sirens are associated with Demeter and Persephone more than Hamadryads are: they can basically perch somewhere and lure enemy units away from battle and within range of their claws. Persephone could have Medusa, and a different option for Hekate are ghosts or Lamiai: they could sneak into enemy areas in disguise and then ambush them. Apollo could send the drakaina Poine instead of the Lernaean Hydra. She's got the rear half of a snake or dragon, the upper half of a woman, and snakes for hair.

okay, this response im gonna list for simplicity:

--yeah, not all of the myth units fit, but i tried to do my best with that and i still plan to share some of the other greek myth units with the romans, christians, and hittites if and when i need to, so the greeks get the better-known ones, for the most part.

--having medusa fly as well as turn enemies to stone seems a bit overkill. argos/argus is already in there, technically, as a technology granted by hera, the Eyes of Argus, which would increase how far your towers could see. argus as a scouting unit isnt a bad idea, but he would work better as a very early one instead of for late-game hera. interestingly, your suggestion of giving hera both medusa and karkinos was already done in AOM. i wanted to differentiate from that, and since i gave hydra to apollo, i gave him karkinos, too; its a little-known fact that karkinos the crab came to the assistance of the hydra while it was fighting hercules, but it was quickly killed by hercules. it WAS hera that made karkinos into a constellation, but i dont think that really gives enough reason for making it hera's unit

--i plan to have sirens as a roman unit not only to divide the greek units but also because, iirc, the sirens' island was supposedly nearer rome than it was greece.

--i know persephone is a nature goddess, but she seemed fitting for hades

--lamias will probably be a hittite unit

--not sure about that last one you suggested for apollo, but i personally am satisfied with what i have right now for greek myth units

[Mythos_Ruler]

It seems like in practice, the most important gods are Apollo, Athena, and maybe Demeter(?) and Dionysos. I'm talking about as far as their popularity with actual Ancient Greeks. Apollo (Sparta, Makedon) and Athena (Athens) were the big ones as far as state cults go. Herakles was worshiped as a demi-god in Thebes.

[oshron]

(facepalm) i forgot! i included another naval myth unit!

by worshipping Helios, you not only get the Colossus, but also Cetus, the legendary sea monster that Perseus turned to stone. id personally like to make a more realistic version of the creature be present in the game rather than the "kraken" from Clash of the Titans, maybe even something godzilla-esque

EDIT: ive also decided on another thing: instead of having the entirely fictional serbonians as one of the factions in the final group of five to be introduced in later releases, there would be an Iberian faction. it would probably be pretty much the same as in 0ad but, of course, with mythological aspects. however, since theres little legitimate iberian mythology that i can really find, alot of their mythological aspects will instead be Basque in origin; spain IS where the basque people are most concentrated, followed by france, so it still works out

Edited April 4, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

well helios is pretty powerful in mythology: mess with his cows, and youre @#$%ed

id LIKE to keep dionysus, but i found he wasnt as important as some of the others. and besides, he's not even an olympian, really; he just replaces hestia since he's better known, but he's still not an olympian.

Neither is Helios. Besides, Sol Invictus was a major god among the Romans, but other than the Rhodians almost no Greeks worshipped Helios at all. His worship was so rare that worshipping the sun was regarded by some Greeks as a hallmark of "barbarian" religion. Besides, Dionysos was very powerful in myth, as well. Haven't you read Euripides' Bakkhai? Or read about what he did to those pirates who tried to abduct him? He was a very important god in Greek religion.

athena was more important, though, being the patron of athens and whatnot.

Well, you put the most important gods (like Zeus and Poseidon) at the beginning so I figured it would be more consistent to have the most minor of the gods come last. Just because AOM did something doesn't mean its wrong. Presumably they based some of it on real religion and myth. Hephaistos was far less important to Greek religion and myth than Athene.

interestingly, your suggestion of giving hera both medusa and karkinos was already done in AOM.

I never suggested giving Medusa to Hera. Keeping her for Hekate, or moving her to Persephone, makes far more sense. Karkinos (unlike Hydra) was actually sent by Hera, that's why I suggested giving it to Hera.

--i know persephone is a nature goddess, but she seemed fitting for hades

--lamias will probably be a hittite unit

Persephone is both an agriculture (not nature) goddess and an underworld goddess, so it works fine to include the underworld part.

I'm not aware of the Lamias being part of Hittite myth. Are you sure they were invented by Hittites?

Overall, I think you have to decide, are you trying to be as accurate as possible to the history, religion, and myths (allowing for the mixing of different historical periods) or would you rather have more freedom to make it up and not worry about making it resemble anything real? If you want to be accurate, you need to do a lot more research than you have so far.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

like with 0ad, some historical/mythological liberties will be taken. i must admit, the real reason that i made helios a legend phase god is because i wanted to still keep the colossus as a lategame myth unit and because the original colossus of rhodes was a statue of helios. besides, i came up with a REALLY cool AND original natural disaster-type godpower for helios: Solar Flare. its invoked in an area and it will steadily grow hotter there until the sunlight becomes blindingly bright and will incinerate units and farms/fields and will set buildings on fire

and yes, i DID read about the dionysus legends, but im personally pretty satisfied with what i currently have. it also breaks the mold by NOT necessarily having the most famous gods. another key thing that im shooting for is differentiating it from AOM as much as i can

as for the order of gods, its not necessarily the most important gods coming later thats going on. the most important gods come first because theyre the major gods: on the screen where you would select your faction, first you go to which civilization as a whole you want to play as (ie, Greeks) and then select a major god (ie, Zeus, Poseidon, or Hades). keep in mind that im also not necessarily being accurate with the major gods, either. like AOM and 0ad, im taking some liberties: there will always be a "good" god, an "evil" god, and a "neutral" god for each faction. though odin is the king of the norse gods, he's present as the "neutral" god for the norse faction with thor being the "good" god and loki the "evil" one. in actuality, the three most important gods in norse mythology--as i said earlier--are thor, odin, and FREYR. since freyr doesnt fit the bill as the evil major god, loki takes his place not only because he is better-known than freyr but also because of his reputation: he killed a god, initiated ragnarok, and was renowned for his mischievous ways. THAT is what warrants an evil god.

with the mesopotamians, their "evil" god isnt even a god, really, and was never really worshipped as far as i know: Tiamat, a giant primordial dragon that was the progenitor of the mesopotamian gods and slain by Marduk, who is the mesopotamian "good" god. the neutral position is filled in with Ishtar, who was also important but was both a protagonist AND antagonist in mythology, and her actions were a bit questionable

as for medusa, i must have misread your post, then yeah, i know that karkinos is associated with hera, but i once again wanted to differentiate from AOM and instead made karkinos one of apollo's myth units because i hapened to decide to give him the hydra.

persephone is a lategame god pretty much just because i wanted her to be. and i gave her a fitting godpower, even though its borrowed from AOM: Underworld Passage, allowing instantaneous travel between two points on the map

im aware that lamias are greek in origin and not hittite, but they seem more fitting to go with the trojans (which are the people that will be focused on teh most for that faction, and it was originally going to be just a Trojan faction) than with the greeks

overall, i would guess that im going for as much historical/mythological accuracy as i can while still leaving room for a good amount of freedom and historical/mythological liberties. ive said it before, but ill say it again: absolute accuracy should not take precedence over enjoyable gameplay. on AOM, the fact that dionysus gave you the hydra AND scylla is inaccurate is only an afterthought

EDIT: oh, and ive reconsidered once again. i found out theres not much basque mythology to go on, either, so the serbonians will remain. but maybe ill reform them into just a minoan faction and give them alot of "atlantean" elements since the minoans are the most likely candidate for a "real" atlantis

ive also made another decision: since the aztecs arent going to have cavalry units and will, for the most part, also lack in siege and ships, they will get every type of infantry. ive already done some research and have gotten all of their basic units down as well as a few others:

Macuahuitl (Swordsman)

Tepoztopilli (Spearman)

Tlahuitolli (Archer, specifically armed with barbed, obsidian arrows)

Atlatl (Javelinist, perhaps he will have a greater range because he uses a javelin-throwing tool instead of just his hands)

Tematlatl (Slinger)

Eagle Warrior/Cuauhtin (Super Infantry Unit, but he counts as a cavalry spearman even though he's a foot soldier to even things about a bit, and he's got a special Javelin Attack where he'll throw a spear at range, because the eagle warriors had several weapons, not just spears, but i decided to give him just those two)

Jaguar Warrior/Ocelotl (Chivalric Hero, counts as an infantry swordsman and drains health from soldiers as he fights, but is incapable of draining health from myth units and other heroes)

ive also got down the Aztec Fortress and Barracks: the Calmecac and the Telpochcalli, respectively. the former was the training school of young aztec nobility, and the latter was strictly for commoners, so it all fits

Edited April 5, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Yeah, the Colossus is a fun idea. Personally, I prefer as much accuracy as possible without compromising game balance, and I think that a horde of drunken satyrs, centaurs, and mainades would be great, but it's entirely a matter of taste. It's not meant as a criticism, just that I don't have a clear idea what precisely you're aiming for and that makes it difficult to give useful feedback.

These websites may be able to help you with the Basque material. I wouldn't assume everything on it is accurate, but at the least it is a good starting point for any future research you decide to do. As for research, there's probably much more written in books or journals than online.

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/eu...e/articles.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_mythology

Edited April 6, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

thanks for that. and dont worry about the satyrs, theyll come in as myth units for bacchus with the roman faction(though they would be called fauns there, their roman name, but the effect would be the same). mainades, however, probably wont make it in, unless they end up being an editor-only unit

[Aldandil]

You're welcome.

But -- and this is important -- will the Fauns be drunk?

Edited April 6, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

i actually wasnt planning for them to be: they would be "bard" units like the Orpheus hero unit, acting as support units to boost allied morale, but when upgraded, they get a special attack where they yell this horrible sound called "Panic" which demoralizes enemies: iirc, during the titanomachy or some other greek mythical war, Pan, the satyr-like god, was the one that first yelled like that and it sent enemies into a terrified frenzy, hence why its called "Panic". otherwise, though, the fauns/satyrs wont really have any attacks, which is also to differentiate them from AOM, in which theyre just javelin-throwers

but i WAS planning for some drunkenness to be included. one other idea i had as a myth unit for bacchus was the Bacchanal, just a kind of fictional wine spirit that can use some kind of magic to inebriate enemies and make them go berserk, attacking anything near them. another was the godpower Madness that would also be given to dionysus/bacchus, which would do the same thing as the bacchanal to a number of units within an area. and this actually has basis in mythology, too: one of the more famous dionysus legends involved a theban king declaring dionysus a false god and when he went to a mountain to put an end to a festival dedicated to the wine god, dionysus made some of the people there, including the king's mother, so inebriated that they thought the king was a boar and they killed him. its also entirely possible that mythical drunkenness and other wine gods will be included with other factions, but if that DOES end up being the case, i havent come up with them yet

i DID, however, come up with an idea for the other aztec demigod that i hadnt had before: Shorn One (Cuachicqueh). he would normally just be a powerful infantry soldier, but he could also possibly have the effect that, once he attacks something, you cannot control him until he becomes idle, as in when theres no other enemy near him that he'll automatically attack. this comes from the fact that the shorn ones in actual history never took a step backwards or retreated once they entered battle, upon pain of death from their own comrades. they were the most prestigious of all aztec warrior societies, even more than the jaguar warriors, and the aztec high general (Tlacochcalcatl) was ALWAYS a member of the shorn ones.

EDIT: oh, and i also filled in the missing poseidon hero: Philoctetes, a companion of Heracles. he's slower than normal because of the injury to his foot for which he is famous, but he utilizes poisoned arrows that used to belong to Heracles himself, which were dipped in the venom of the Hydra. as such, his arrows hurt any enemy they hit for five more seconds after each hit. this is a special trait, not a special attack, so whenever he hits something, it gets poisoned.

...how weird. Hercules is playing on TV right now!

Edited April 6, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

That show was so far beyond inaccurate, but it was often hilarious fun.

Bacchanal usually refers to a festival in honor of Dionysos, I think. I'm trying to think up another name for the wine spirit... Methe (inebriation)? Akratos (overly-strong/unmixed wine)? Lyssa (rabies/madness/frenzy)?

[oshron]

chances are, with the fauns as bacchus' myth unit, bacchanals wont be included as units. however, i can probably take a page out of AOM's book and make that a technology for bacchus.

i also worked out the new version of the roman pantheon last night. i dont have my laptop right now, so i cant post the exact thing, but the major gods are now Quirinus(the deified first emperor of rome, romulus), Vesta(goddess of the hearth and of the roman state), and Mars(god of war), as the "good", "neutral", and "evil" gods, respectively. before, i had them as Quirinus, Mithras, and Jupiter. ive excluded jupiter and a number of gods already included for the greeks on purpose to better differentiate the roman pantheon from the greek one. ive also got three deified mortals as the last available gods: Indiges(Aeneas), Julius (Julius Caesar), and Augustalis(Augustus). julius is available to all three major gods, and indiges is available only to quirinus. i also gave indiges an undead wolf-man myth unit, the Vrykolakas(sp?) in reference to the fact that romulus and remus were suckled by a she-wolf, since indiges is alvailable only to quirinus/romulus

vulcan is also available as a late game god. normally i wouldnt include him because he's the counterpart to hephaestus, but i wanted to put him in in order to reference pompeii: his myth unit is Cacus, a fire-breathing giant, and his godpower will be Eruption. i may have mentioned before that i plan to balance the mortal and mythical elements of each faction depending on how powerful the faction's mortal elements are. since rome will be pretty powerful in teh mortal sense, they'll have a weaker mythology to even it out, and will only get that one natural disaster godpower, eruption, for balance. thats not to say that their mythology is totally lacking, though: Augustalis gives you two myth units: the mighty Laistrygonian cannibal giant and the hideous sea monster Charybdis. Scylla, essentially an aquatic hydra like in AOM, will also be available to Venus, and Ladon, the dragon guarding the garden of the hesperides, is available as an earlier myth unit

EDIT: ive decided on yet another thing. since rome encompassed so many lands, i think i'll try to get a "representative" myth unit for each province. specifically, im gonna try to get one for each major province of the western empire because thats the part of the empire that i really want to focus on(the eastern mediterranean is already too crowded with the greeks, egyptians, hittites, semites, and minoans) and will otherwise fill in legitimate roman and greek units for other portions of their pantheon. dont worry, though: fauns, sirens, scylla, cacus, vrykolakas, laistrygonians, and charybdis will all still be there. other than them, though, im gonna see what foreign myth units i can include

Edited April 7, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

Hmm, coming up with myth units for deified emperors seems especially hard.

I'd just call Augustus Augustus Caesar and Aeneas Aeneas, though. They didn't change names when deified.

For deities that the Romans had that the Greeks don't in your set-up, you could consider Saturnus, Mercurius, and Janus. But I agree with you that Hephaistos and Vulcan are different enough to easily include both. Hephaistos is the god of smithcraft and other creative arts, and Vulcan is mostly a god of blowing stuff up and setting things on fire.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

thats also why mars is included: ares was hated by all, even his own mother, for how bloodthirsty he was, whereas mars was level-headed and more similar to the norse god tyr(i guess; tyr was the god of single and honorable combat in norse mythology)

as for deified mortals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Indiges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attius_Insteius_Tertullus

you'll notice the names are changed for the game. i often try to do that for the benefit of those who arent as adept at pronunciation as i am as well as just to shorten the names and give more a ring to them, i guess. i mean, 'Indiges' sounds much cooler than 'Jupiter Indiges' or 'Aeneas'

okay, here's what i have for the roman pantheon:

Carmenta (goddess of prophecy and childbirth, grants the Teumessian Fox myth unit)

Pomona (goddess of fruit trees, grants the Arachne* myth unit)

Janus (god of doorways, beginnings, and end, grants the Pygmy myth unit)

Bacchus (god of wine, grants the Faun myth unit)

Neptune (god of the sea, grants the Khalkotaur and Siren myth units)

Cybele (goddess of the earth, grants the Ladon myth unit)

Venus (goddess of love, grants the Scylla myth unit, still requires a terrestrial myth unit)

Vulcan (god of fire, grants the Cacus myth unit, could possibly be renamed Mulciber)

Saturn (god of the harvest, grants the Python myth unit)

Indiges (deified Aeneas, grants the Vrykolakas myth unit)

Julius (deified Caesar, grants the Gigantes myth unit)

Augustalis (deified Augustus, grants the Laistrygonian and Charybdis myth units)

*i started to be at a loss for borrowed greek units, so i decided to recycle my old arachne idea, which would have been the myth unit for hestia in the greek faction

EDIT: oh, ive also got the starting and ending points for each civilization down now:

Cro-Magnons : 10,000 BC - 5000 BC, dated from the end of the last ice age to the widespread use of copper

Minoans : 9600 BC - 1450 BC, dated from the peak of Atlantis to the fall of the Minoan civilization

Harappan Hindus : 3300 BC - 1300 BC, dated from the early to late stages of the Harappan phases of the Indus Valley Civilization

Mesopotamian Peoples : 3100 BC - 539 BC, dated from teh introduction of cuneiform script to the fall of the Neo-Babylonian Empire

Northwest Semites : 2348 BC - 146 AD, dated from the traditional date of the Creation to the fall of Carthage

Hittite Trojans : 1800 BC - 1275 BC, dated from the rise of the Hittite civilization to the fall of Troy

Mycenaean Greeks : 1600 BC - 1100 BC, dated to the rise and fall of the Mycenaean period

Ancient Egyptians : 1570 BC - 1070 BC, dated to the rise and fall of the New Kingdom

Pagan Romans : 753 BC - 380 AD, dated from the founding of Rome to Theodosius making Christianity the state religion

Zoroastrian Persians : 450 BC - 644 AD, dated from the entry of Zoroastrianism into history to the fall of that religion at the hands of Islam

Arthurian Celts : 330 BC - 540 AD, dated from teh entry of the Celts into recorded history to the traditional date of King Arthur's death

Han Chinese : 221 BC - 220 AD, dated from the rise of the Qin dynasty to the fall of the Han dynasty

Christians : 33 AD - 1272 AD, dated from the crucifixion to the end of the Ninth Crusade

Slavic Peoples : 98 AD - 500 AD, dated from the entry of the Slavs into recorded history to the earliest date at which the Slavs began to adopt Christianity

Shinto Japanese : 250 AD - 710 AD, dated from the beginning of the Yamato period to the beginning of the Nara period (the Nara period is when Buddhism became prevalent in Japan)

Mayan Peoples : 250 AD - 900 AD, dated from the beginning of the Mayan classical period to the Mayan Collapse

Polynesians : 300 AD - 1700 AD, dated from the earliest date of Hawaii's settlement to the approach to that civilization's height

Imperial Aztecs : 600 AD - 1502 AD, dated from the time at which the Nahua peoples began to expand to the ascension of Moctezuma II to the throne of the Aztec Empire

Norse Vikings : 793 AD - 1100 AD, dated to the duration of the Viking Age

now i just have to fill in those between times with relevent evets

EDIT: i just realized that i forgot to come up with the timeline for the iroquois faction. yknow, maybe ill just drop that faction, and maybe the minoans and mayans, too

Edited April 9, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

as for deified mortals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Indiges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attius_Insteius_Tertullus

I had no idea Aeneas had been renamed.

Augustalis means "of Augustus" or "Augustus's." It is the Latin genitive form, roughly equivalent to adding 's to a possessive noun in English, or of turning the noun "he" into the possessive "his." In the nomitive form (as a proper noun), his name was still Augustus.

I wish I had ideas for more deity-specific Roman myth units, but I don't. But mer-leopards, mer-lions, and so forth could be fun.

Northwest Semites : 2348 BC - 146 AD, dated from the traditional date of the Creation to the fall of Carthage

Clever!

Edited April 9, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

i had had the ideas of Giant Bee and Leokampus for Cybele because she is associated with both bees and lions(and also in vague reference to Doctor Who--in one episode of that, an alien that resembles a giant wasp called a Vespiform appears. for that matter, the Cacus is actually also in reference to the Pyroviles, also from Doctor Who, these giant rock-and-lava-based lifeforms that tried to turn pompeii into their new capitol after their homeplanet was destroyed so that they could reshape the earth into their liking)

and dont worry too much about the roman myth units, ive pretty much got them down now:

Carmenta grants the Teumessian Fox

Pomona grants the Arachne (fictional, but based on the Arachne legend)

Janus grants the Automaton (i decided to cut out the Pygmy because of another idea i have)

Bacchus grants the Faun

Neptune grants the Khalkotaur (bronze bull) and Siren

Cybele grants the Ladon

Venus grants the Polyphontid (Agrius & Orius) and Scylla

Vulcan grants the Cacus

Saturn grants the Python

Indiges grants the Vrykolakas

Julius grants the Gigantes

Augustus grants the Laistrygonian (cannibal giants from The Odyssey) and Charybdis

sooooooo, yeah, thats all the myth units that the romans need. its still subject to change, but id like to keep this as more or less the final setup for balance: give the romans SOME powerful mythology but not as much as other cultures because, in mortal senses, the romans will have much more powerful soldiers, siege, and ships

Edited April 9, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

It makes sense to give the Romans fewer myth units, since their army is so tough.

I think that your earlier idea of the giant bee (or maybe a swarm of bees?) would work better for Pomona then Arachne. It's just as fictional and made-up as Arachne is, but bees are associated with fruit and orchards, so it fits a little better.

[oshron]

thing is, i hadnt planned out anything for the giant bee, but had gotten down pretty much everything for arachne AND had planned to originally include her as hestia's myth unit. i still wanted to include arachne as a myth unit, so...there ya have it.

oh, i also have two bonuses for the roman major gods. Vesta's bonus is--fittingly--"Vestal Virgins", which protects Female Citizens from godpowers and capture by enemy troops. Mars' bonus is "Colosseum", which allows his followers to train the Gladiator superunit from the very beginning. i wanted to include that because in my earlier designs for the game which had unique units as each soldier for each faction, the gladiator was one of the earlier and more important roman units, and also because i wanted to make the romans a "heroic" faction (that meaning that they have named hero units instead of generic ones like "druid" or "jaguar warrior" and not generic "sovereign" heroes like "king" or "chieftain")

ive also got the focuses for half of the roman gods. unlike myth units, the focuses, and therefore technologies and often godpowers, of minor gods will almost always be more closely related to the god. here's what i have just for the romans thus far.

Pomona: foraging

Janus: walls

Neptune: ships

Cybele: temple

Vulcan: armory

Saturn: agriculture

[Aldandil]

Yeah, those make sense to me.

I want to say that Augustus should do something for your buildings, like make them harder to destroy, or slightly cheaper to build.

[oshron]

maybe julius could help military because he was such an able commander, augutus would help expansion because he's the most notable roman emperor, and indiges could help navy since he sailed all over the mediterranean before reaching italy. i was also thinking that quirinus would benefit buildings because he was the founder of the republic, iirc. vesta would probably help the temple and mars would benefit military.

[Aldandil]

I was thinking that Augustus Caesar should make buildings cheaper to build since he basically rebuilt the city center and infrastructure. Aeneas/Indiges improving the navy is a good idea. Julius Caesar helping the military in some way makes sense too. Romulus could do something with walls, since building the walls and pomerium (a sort of sacred boundary) was a major and indespensible part of founding of a Roman city. However, if there's only one thing that gods can do to improve the walls, it does make more sense to give that to Janus. If Quirinus is to affect buildings as well, he could make them more difficult to destroy.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

sounds good to me, maybe janus' technology could be Hadrian's Wall?

EDIT: oh, and i also had an idea as to how to include other civilizations without actually making them, especially since alot of them come from the same mythological regions as some of the pre-existing factions. basically, theyre just editor-only technologies that visually transform the units and buildings of a player into another race/species. for example, there would be a technology that would make a faction appear to be dwarves even though theyre just regular norse. thats not to say that there couldnt be greek or egyptian dwarves, but the basic idea is just that thered be one or two "fake" factions for each official one, though theyd probably be roughly equivalent in size to regular faction units and buildings. here's a few ideas:

Dwarves (Norse)

Centaurs (Greeks)

Pygmies (Greeks, Romans, or Semites*)

Fauns/Satyrs (Greeks or Romans)

Vampires (Slavs)

Werewolves (Slavs)

Alfar/Elves (Norse)

Mongols/similar (Chinese)

Dinosauroids** (Cro-Magnons)

Aborigines (Polynesians?)

Atlantis (Greeks or Romans, assuming an "atlantis" faction isnt included in the final version)

Inca (Aztecs)

Skraelings (Norse)

Zulu (Semites? there should be SOME kind of african "false" faction, for aesthetics if for nothing else)

*because the semites also encompass carthage, which would in turn probably have a good amount of other african elements

** i had actually thought of having an actual dinosauroid faction to go hand-in-hand with the cro-magnons but decided against it later on. however, i think it would still be a really interesting "fake" faction. to clarify, the "dinosauroid" traditionally refers to the infamous dinosaur-human that was theorized to have evolved had the dinosaurs not died out. more dedicated theorists, particularly a turkish artist named Nemo Ramjet and an artist on deviantart named povorot have come up with far more likely representations of dinosauroids that include animals still roughly similar to cretaceous dinosaurs, albeit far more outwardly bird-like than what most people imagine

the "original" dinosauroid

the new dinosauroids

alternatively, a derivative design that i came up with could be used, with is basically a partly feathered red and white jurassic park raptor, which would put them more on-scale with the units that would already be in the game but otherwise being identical to the new dinosauroids.

similarly, some false or even extraterrestrial factions could be included in games centered more on the modern era, like the other RTS idea that i have, Atlas (which would stretch from the enlightenment to the near future, but thats a discussion for another thread)

Edited April 13, 2010 by oshron