post-0 AD idea: mythology

[oshron]

sorry to double-post, but ive now got a very good portion of the new pantheons worked out. in fact, i think the only one i havent finished up yet is the hindu pantheon

here's what i currently have:

ARTHURIAN CELTIC

TOUTATIS

Town Phase: Cernunnos, Macha

City Phase: Nantosuelta, Gobannus

Empire Phase: Lugh, Epona

Legend Phase: Nodens, Manannan

BRIGANTIA

Town Phase: Sulis, Cernunnos

City Phase: Gobannus, Ogma

Empire Phase: Belenus, Epona

Legend Phase: Nodens, Maponos

BEIRA

Town Phase: Macha, Sulis

City Phase: Ogma, Nantosuelta

Empire Phase: Lugh, Belenus

Legend Phase: Maponos, Manannan

ANCIENT EGYPTIAN

OSIRIS

Town Phase: Sobek, Ma'at

City Phase: Khnum, Hathor

Empire Phase: Anubis, Isis

Legend Phase: Thoth, Horus

RA

Town Phase: Bastet, Ma'at

City Phase: Hathor, Khepri

Empire Phase: Isis, Ptah

Legend Phase: Horus, Sekhmet

SET

Town Phase: Sobek, Bastet

City Phase: Khepri, Khnum

Empire Phase: Anubis, Ptah

Legend Phase: Thoth, Sekhmet

MYCENAEAN GREEK

ZEUS

Town Phase: Aphrodite, Hermes

City Phase: Ares, Apollo

Empire Phase: Athena, Hera

Legend Phase: Hekate, Helios

POSEIDON

Town Phase: Demeter, Hermes

City Phase: Apollo, Hephaestus

Empire Phase: Artemis, Athena

Legend Phase: Helios, Hekate

HADES

Town Phase: Aphrodite, Demeter

City Phase: Hephaestus, Ares

Empire Phase: Hera, Artemis

Legend Phase: Persephone, Hekate

MESOPOTAMIAN PEOPLES

MARDUK

Town Phase: Enlil, Nanshe

City Phase: Shamash, Enkimdu

Empire Phase: Ereshkigal, Ninhursag

Legend Phase: Anu, Enki

ISHTAR

Town Phase: Ninshubar, Enlil

City Phase: Shamash, Siduri

Empire Phase: Nergal, Ninhursag

Legend Phase: Enki, Sin

TIAMAT

Town Phase: Nanshe, Ninhursag

City Phase: Siduri, Enkimdu

Empire Phase: Ereshkigal, Nergal

Legend Phase: Sin, Anu

NORSE VIKING

THOR

Town Phase: Skuld, Freyja

City Phase: Heimdall, Forseti

Empire Phase: Urd, Njord

Legend Phase: Freyr, Tyr

ODIN

Town Phase: Skuld, Bragi

City Phase: Heimdall, Verdandi

Empire Phase: Skadi, Urd

Legend Phase: Tyr, Freyr

LOKI

Town Phase: Bragi, Freyja

City Phase: Verdandi, Forseti

Empire Phase: Njord, Skadi

Legend Phase: Hel, Freyr

IMPERIAL AZTEC

QUETZALCOATL

Town Phase: Chicomecoatl, Ehecatl

City Phase: Xolotl, Cihuacoatl

Empire Phase: Mixcoatl, Itzpapalotl

Legend Phase: Coatlicue, Mictlantecuhtli

CHALCHIUHTLICUE (god, i HATE this one's name, its IMPOSSIBLE to spell by memory)

Town Phase: Ehecatl, Mayahuel

City Phase: Tlaloc, Xolotl

Empire Phase: Mixcoatl, Xipe Totec

Legend Phase: Mixtlantecuhtli, Nanauatzin

TEZCATLIPOCA

Town Phase: Mayahuel, Chicomecoatl

City Phase: Tlaloc, Cihuacoatl

Empire Phase: Xipe Totec, Itzpapalotl

Legend Phase: Nanauatzin, Coatlicue

HAN CHINESE

SHANGDI

Town Phase: Zao Jun, Zhongli Quan

City Phase: Nuwa, Mazu

Empire Phase: Tu Di Gong, Zhu Rong

Legend Phase: Shennong, Long Mu

HUANG-DI

Town Phase: Tam Kung, Zhongli Quan

City Phase: Wong Tai Sin, Mazu

Empire Phase: Zhong Kui, Zho Rong

Legend Phase: Fu Hsi, Long Mu

YING ZHENG

Town Phase: Zao Jun, Tam Kung

City Phase: Wong Tai Sin, Nuwa

Empire Phase: Zhong Kui, Tu Di Gong

Legend Phase: Shennong, Long Mu

CRO-MAGNONS

this is one of the one of the more incomplete ones thus far; i have the pantheon down, but none of the other details aside from a tech here and there and a few godpowers

PROMETHEUS

Town Phase: Adamanthea, Epimetheus

City Phase: Iapetus, Eos

Empire Phase: Astraeus, Hyperion

Legend Phase: Ouranos, Perses

RHEIA

Town Phase: Nyx, Adamanthea

City Phase: Themis, Eos

Empire Phase: Erebos, Astraeus

Legend Phase: Ouranos, Gaia

KRONOS

Town Phase: Epimetheus, Nyx

City Phase: Themis, Iapetus

Empire Phase: Hyperion, Erebos

Legend Phase: Gaia, Perses

HARAPPAN HINDU

this is the one that i dont really have anything for yet. i have a basic outline left over from the old format, but nothing else

SHINTO JAPANESE

IZANAGI

Town Phase: Uke Mochi, Ebisu

City Phase: Hachiman, Sarutahiko

Empire Phase: Ta-jikawa-wo, Raijin

Legend Phase: Kagu-tsuchi, Susanoo

AMATERASU

Town Phase: Inari, Uke Mochi

City Phase: Tsukuyomi, Sarutahiko

Empire Phase: Ta-jikawa-wo, Ame-no-Uzume

Legend Phase: Sengen, Kagu-tsuchi

IZANAGI

Town Phase: Ebisu, Inari

City Phase: Hachiman, Tsukuyomi

Empire Phase: Ame-no-Uzume, Raijin

Legend Phase: Sengen, Susanoo

CHRISTIAN

JEHOVAH

Town Phase: Tariel, Barachiel

City Phase: Ariel, Uriel

Empire Phase: Raphael, Sariel

Legend Phase: Gabriel, Zerachiel

JESUS

Town Phase: Zadkiel, Barachiel

City Phase: Uriel, Ramiel

Empire Phase: Raphael, Jegudiel

Legend Phase: Michael, Gabriel

LUCIFER

Town Phase: Tariel, Barachiel

City Phase: Ramiel, Ariel

Empire Phase: Jegudiel, Sariel

Legend Phase: Zerachiel, Michael

HITTITE TROJAN

ZOROASTRIAN PERSIAN

PAGAN ROMAN

QUIRINUS

Town Phase: Carmenta, Pomona

City Phase: Bacchus, Neptune

Empire Phase: Venus, Vulcan

Legend Phase: Indiges, Julius

VESTA

Town Phase: Janus, Pomona

City Phase: Cybele, Neptune

Empire Phase: Saturn, Venus

Legend Phase: Julius, Augustus

MARS

Town Phase: Janus, Carmenta

City Phase: Cybele, Bacchus

Empire Phase: Vulcan, Saturn

Legend Phase: Augustus, Julius

NORTHWEST SEMITIC

also rather incomplete; i have all the deities, but just have to organize them into the setup

IROQUOIS/NATIVE AMERICAN

ive pretty much given up on this faction, but its still a possibility, i guess

MAYAN/OTHER MESOAMERICAN

ive given up on this one entirely; the aztecs were difficult enough to come up with

POLYNESIAN

i reworked this one most recently and decided to officially divide it into three "sub-factions": Hawaiians, Maori, and Rapa Nui (Easter Island), forming the pantheon setup more on that than anything else

HI'IAKA

Town Phase: Oro, Paka'a

City Phase: Hina, Tane

Empire Phase: Maui, Namaka

Legend Phase: Pele, Tangaroa

RONGO

Town Phase: Uenuku, Oro

City Phase: Tane, Tawhirimatea

Empire Phase: Turnatuega, Maui

Legend Phase: Tumatauenga, Tangaroa

MAKEMAKE

Town Phase: Oro, Paka'a

City Phase: Hina, Tawhirimatea

Empire Phase: Maui, Turnatuega

Legend Phase: Manana Take, Tangaroa

MINOAN/SERBONIAN/ATLANTEAN/IBERIAN

ive currently given up on this one, but i may add it again later

SLAVIC PEOPLES

PERUN

Town Phase: Ipabog, Varpulis

City Phase: Svetovid, Radegast

Empire Phase: Jarilo, Dazbog

Legend Phase: Marzanna, Belobog

VELES

Town Phase: Ozwiena, Ipabog

City Phase: Radegast, Ziva

Empire Phase: Jarilo, Svarog

Legend Phase: Peklenc, Belobog

CHERNOBOG

Town Phase: Ozwiena, Varpulis

City Phase: Ziva, Svetovid

Empire Phase: Dazbog, Svarog

Legend Phase: Marzanna, Peklenc

~~~~~

whew! done! and i am REALLY tired, so i wont say any more about this tonight

Edited April 14, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

The idea of transforming all the factions into mythical creatures ... that could be pretty fun, actually, the more I think about it. Werewolves and vampires you can give to the Greeks as well as the Slavs -- although they'd have to have separate unit graphics for each. The satyrs, centaurs, dwarves, vampires, and werewolves would be fun, but some of the others -- especially the dinosaurs (and for that matter the Cro-Magnons) -- are fantasy, not myth. And IMO the human groups should either have their own faction or not be in the game. I'd like to see a second African faction, in addition to the Egyptians, as a full faction. I don't see what dinosaurs have to do with cave-men, either -- it looks really out of place to me. Instead you could give Cro-Magnons Lion-men. And you could give the Polynesians Turehu or Patupaiarehe, or even Manaia. The Chinese could have Huli Jing (Fox-folk). You could give the Aztecs Jaguar-men (and the regular Aztecs should totally have a shapeshifting Werejaguar as a myth unit!).

Here's the Lion-man statue from which I got the idea -- it's made out of mammoth ivory and is between 30,000 and 28,000 years old:

http://robertarood.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/lion-man1.jpg

Unfortunately, it just occured to me that the centaurs might not work out, because they eliminate the distinction between a faction's cavalry and infantry units.

How's this:

Dwarves (Norse)

Other kind of Dwarves (Egyptians)

Fauns/Satyrs (Greeks and Romans)

Vampires (Slavs and Greeks)

Werewolves (Slavs and Romans)

Alfar (Norse)

Huli Jing/Fox-folk (Chinese)

Lion-folk (Cro-Magnons)

Patupaiarehe (Polynesians)

Manaia (Polynesians)

Jaguar-folk (Aztecs)

Giving the Cro-Magnons Greek gods... I don't like it. I'd rather see them given animal "totems" like Mammoth, Lion, Tarpan, Aurochs, Rhino, Beaver, Wolf, Caribou, Bear, Bison, etc. Maybe include some really important plants, like Willow (giving a bonus to all healers). I guess Lion could fill in for the "evil" god, or better yet, you could use Storm for that. It would be equally fictional, but much more fitting to the cave-man faction.

Some of the pantheons seem to be set up with the most important gods being the main three, but some of them don't seem to be. And you listed Izanagi twice. Why not use Amaterasu ("good"), Tsuki-Yomi ("neutral"), and Susanoo ("evil") as the major Shinto gods? And the way that the Christian Lucifer gives you access to God's angels (such as Michael) doesn't make sense to me -- shouldn't he have demons?

I'm sorry I can't comment much on the rest of it. I don't really know what criteria are used to list the minor gods with each major god. I'm not meaning to be relentlessly negative all the time, I just generally don't have anything to say about things I don't disagree with.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

The idea of transforming all the factions into mythical creatures ... that could be pretty fun, actually, the more I think about it. Werewolves and vampires you can give to the Greeks as well as the Slavs -- although they'd have to have separate unit graphics for each. The satyrs, centaurs, dwarves, vampires, and werewolves would be fun, but some of the others -- especially the dinosaurs (and for that matter the Cro-Magnons) -- are fantasy, not myth. And IMO the human groups should either have their own faction or not be in the game. I'd like to see a second African faction, in addition to the Egyptians, as a full faction. I don't see what dinosaurs have to do with cave-men, either -- it looks really out of place to me. Instead you could give Cro-Magnons Lion-men. And you could give the Polynesians Turehu or Patupaiarehe, or even Manaia. The Chinese could have Huli Jing (Fox-folk). You could give the Aztecs Jaguar-men (and the regular Aztecs should totally have a shapeshifting Werejaguar as a myth unit!).

whoo-ee, thisll take a while...

the main idea i had with "fake" factions is more that they would just be for campaigns, like suppose theres a norse campaign and they need to form an alliance with some dwarves in order to beat some giants. instead of bullshitting our way through with having only dwarf villager units and "Heroes of Ragnarok" like in AOM (which came in male, female, and dwarf variations in that game because they were modeled after norse villagers), there would just be dwarf variations that function exactly the same as regular units. their appearances only would be different, otherwise acting exactly the same, so it could go for any faction. what im mainly trying to do is just come up with two or three fake factions for each real one, even though they work for any faction

the dinosaurs are more for fun and because of rumors of living dinosaurs in remote regions, and because i just LOVE dinosaurs in general. the dinosauroids also go on the stereotype that cavemen and dinosaurs coexisted, and it could also go for outright fictional scenarios as well, just focusing on dinosaurs in hypothetical history. maybe there could be something where greek soldiers wash up in south america or on an uncharted island and find dinosaurs there, yknow, a classic "lost world" scenario

as for an african faction, the closest i think we can get with the current factions (i dont really want to expand out of what i currently set up for simplicity's sake) would be thee Northwest Semitic faction. since carthage circumnavigated africa, they saw much more of the world than most other peoples, and would probably have a good number of african monsters in as well, probably as filler if necessary

and as for the aztecs with shapeshifting jaguars, i kinda had that in mind, too. though not technically correct, i had thought that the Onza myth unit in use by the aztecs would double as a villager and transform into a jaguar or cougar(aka mountain lion aka puma) when fighting, kind of like the celtic selkie, and could maybe navigate forests

Unfortunately, it just occured to me that the centaurs might not work out, because they eliminate the distinction between a faction's cavalry and infantry units.

i dont think it has to actually PERFECTLY work out. i mean, iirc, pygmies arent exactly known for using anything other than poisoned arrows, but they would have regular weapons just like anyone else. the centaurs infantry would just be slower is all, maybe they could be very heavily armored to justify that, who knows?

Giving the Cro-Magnons Greek gods... I don't like it. I'd rather see them given animal "totems" like Mammoth, Lion, Tarpan, Aurochs, Rhino, Beaver, Wolf, Caribou, Bear, Bison, etc. Maybe include some really important plants, like Willow (giving a bonus to all healers). I guess Lion could fill in for the "evil" god, or better yet, you could use Storm for that. It would be equally fictional, but much more fitting to the cave-man faction.

tbph, thee reason i havent given the cro-magnons animal-worship is because im finding it to be incredibly difficult to make up their gods, even though theres a good amount of evidence. i mean, i dont want them to just worship "Sun" or "Sky" or "Wind" or stuff like that. my actual justification for giving them pre-olympian deities stems from WAAY back when i first came up with the idea for a prehistoric faction. basically, since the olympians ruled over the bronze age world, pre-olympian deities--ie, the titans--would be ruling over the pre-bronze world, as in when there were cavemen and such. i DID have some ideas for an animal-worship pantheon, though, partly based on a series of books set in prehistoric europe. i had two major gods down, Ursus (bear-spirit) and Panthera (lionness-spirit) but i didnt get much further than that. if i can get more information on that, though, you can bet ill look into it

Some of the pantheons seem to be set up with the most important gods being the main three, but some of them don't seem to be. And you listed Izanagi twise. Why not use Amaterasu ("good"), Tsuki-Yomi ("neutral"), and Susanoo ("evil") as the major Shinto gods? And the way that the Christian Lucifer gives you access to God's angels (such as Michael) doesn't make sense to me -- shouldn't he have demons?

izanagi twice? my bad; the "evil" japanese god is supposed to be izaNAMI.

i had originally planned to have amaterasu, tsukuyomi, and susanoo as the japanese gods, but decided against it later because izanagi is responsible for teh creation of japan and gives life, and izanami was also responsible, but is the wicked goddess of death; after she died and izanagi broke a promise to not see her while in the underworld, she became furious because it meant she could never return to the surface and vowed to kill 1000 people each day(izanagi retorted by giving life to 1500 every day)

yes, yes, i know lucifer shouldnt have angels, but i want to only have 3 gods(or in that case, angels) for each age. it could be reasoned that lucifer managed to convince them to join him, who knows? this is all for a fictional game, after all

as for the major gods, im not only going for the most important gods but also ones that most closely fit the general criteria for major gods: one good, one neutral, one evil. in some cases, i have to compromise. for example, in the greek pantheon, zeus is good, poseidon is neutral, and hades is evil, even though all three of them were good guys in mythology. in the norse pantheon, odin, thor, and FREYR were the most important gods, but freyr didnt fit well as an evil god so he's replaced with the better-known and more mischievous loki. to compensate, freyr is available to all three for the last age and is a very good god to get. in some other cases, its the faction itself that theyre representing. in the polynesians, the "good" god represents the hawaiians, the neutral represents the maori, and the evil represents rapa nui (easter island) on the fictional assertation that, in a polynesian campaign, it would be the people of rapa nui who attack the hawaiians and maori

i welcome any and all suggestions; constructive criticism is the best kind of criticism

[Aldandil]

the main idea i had with "fake" factions is more that they would just be for campaigns, like suppose theres a norse campaign and they need to form an alliance with some dwarves in order to beat some giants. instead of bullshitting our way through with having only dwarf villager units and "Heroes of Ragnarok" like in AOM (which came in male, female, and dwarf variations in that game because they were modeled after norse villagers), there would just be dwarf variations that function exactly the same as regular units. their appearances only would be different, otherwise acting exactly the same, so it could go for any faction. what im mainly trying to do is just come up with two or three fake factions for each real one, even though they work for any faction

Oh, OK, that would be fun too. I was imagining an army of fauns (with Roman buildings and ships) fighting a three-way battle against an army of werewolves (with Slavic buildings), and an army of vampires (with Greek ships and buildings) and similar scenarios. But humans forming alliances with mythical races could be fun as well.

You know, now that I think about the good, neutral, and evil division of major gods.... how do you do that with the Christians? I mean, you can interpret the New Testament God as good and make Jesus the good god, and interpret the Old Testament God as neutral, but maybe it'd be better to make all of the "gods" be angels and demons (and Lucifer is a fallen angel, so he still works) and just leave God and Jesus in the background.

tbph, thee reason i havent given the cro-magnons animal-worship is because im finding it to be incredibly difficult to make up their gods, even though theres a good amount of evidence. i mean, i dont want them to just worship "Sun" or "Sky" or "Wind" or stuff like that. my actual justification for giving them pre-olympian deities stems from WAAY back when i first came up with the idea for a prehistoric faction. basically, since the olympians ruled over the bronze age world, pre-olympian deities--ie, the titans--would be ruling over the pre-bronze world, as in when there were cavemen and such. i DID have some ideas for an animal-worship pantheon, though, partly based on a series of books set in prehistoric europe. i had two major gods down, Ursus (bear-spirit) and Panthera (lionness-spirit) but i didnt get much further than that. if i can get more information on that, though, you can bet ill look into it

I forgot that the Cro-Magnons include neolithic people living right before the bronze age. The name Cro-Magnons is throwing me off, I keep thinking they're only paleolithic. Yes the Titans can make sense for a Neolithic group. Prometheus is a minor god though, at least for the Greeks, so maybe you could make Rhea the "good" god and Gaia the "neutral" god. Sometimes Gaia helps the Titans, sometimes she helps the Olympians, sometimes she tries to overthrow whoever happens to be in power at the time. Kronos of course is the perfect evil major god, 'cause well, he's evil.

In any case, if using animal gods, it isn't necessary to base it on the Clan of the Cave Bear (I'm guessing that's the book series you refer to.) I can try to come up with it. What are the criteria for gods? Do you have a list of specific things (like agriculture, armor, hunting) that must have minor gods? How many god powers, technologies, unique heroes, and myth units does each major or minor god need to have? I don't know how you are building these pantheons, so if you can give me a template, I'll come up with something to fill in the blanks.

By template, I mean something like this:

MAJOR GOOD GOD

>god power

>1st land myth unit

>2nd land myth unit

>water myth unit

>technology/thing it improves for the faction

MINOR GOD OF XYZ

>god power

>myth unit

>technology/thing it improves

MINOR GOD OF ABC

>god power

>myth unit

>technology/thing it improves

etc.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

Oh, OK, that would be fun too. I was imagining an army of fauns (with Roman buildings and ships) fighting a three-way battle against an army of werewolves (with Slavic buildings), and an army of vampires (with Greek ships and buildings) and similar scenarios. But humans forming alliances with mythical races could be fun as well.

yeah, this is pretty much what i had in mind. it would be for story purposes, mostly, but there could conceivably be multiplayer-type maps where players play as different mythical races as well as whatever faction and major god they chose

what i had actually intended was that the false factions would have new appearances for every ship, building, and unit, so that it wouldnt matter which faction they were applied to. they would still have all the same names as that faction(for instance, if there were greek vampires, the vampire spearman wouldnt have his own name, he'd still be called a hoplite). the only things that would be unchanged are heroes, possibly demigods(just for simplicity) and their gods, so during a game you would see something like "WEREWOLF CLAN has advanced to the CITY PHASE through ARES", something along those lines

You know, now that I think about the good, neutral, and evil division of major gods.... how do you do that with the Christians? I mean, you can interpret the New Testament God as good and make Jesus the good god, and interpret the Old Testament God as neutral, but maybe it'd be better to make all of the "gods" be angels and demons (and Lucifer is a fallen angel, so he still works) and just leave God and Jesus in the background.

i DO see where youre coming from with this. the christian faction is still subject to change, so i may decide to replace the major gods with archangels, but for the moment, im keeping them as they are. i also divided the old testament and new testament interpretations of God into seperate entities because of how different they are from one another: old testament God is actually pretty nasty, smiting people regilarly, whereas in the new testament he's more benevolent. maybe ill revise that later, too

I forgot that the Cro-Magnons include neolithic people living right before the bronze age. The name Cro-Magnons is throwing me off, I keep thinking they're only paleolithic. Yes the Titans can make sense for a Neolithic group. Prometheus is a minor god though, at least for the Greeks, so maybe you could make Rhea the "good" god and Gaia the "neutral" god. Sometimes Gaia helps the Titans, sometimes she helps the Olympians, sometimes she tries to overthrow whoever happens to be in power at the time. Kronos of course is the perfect evil major god, 'cause well, he's evil.

i made prometheus their good god because he created humanity and gave them fire, so it makes sense. i also wanted to differentiate from AOM's atlantean faction, which also used titans

oh, and as for Jesus being the neutral god instead of the good one, its because he was the really passive one. God is benevolent and everything, but he can still smite if he needs to. Jesus is the EPITOME of neutral

In any case, if using animal gods, it isn't necessary to base it on the Clan of the Cave Bear (I'm guessing that's the book series you refer to.) I can try to come up with it. What are the criteria for gods? Do you have a list of specific things (like agriculture, armor, hunting) that must have minor gods? How many god powers, technologies, unique heroes, and myth units does each major or minor god need to have? I don't know how you are building these pantheons, so if you can give me a template, I'll come up with something to fill in the blanks.

lol, yeah, thats what i was basing it on ill bring up a general template now:

i have each pantheon setup in a table on microsoft word, divided into rows and columns to designate which minor gods go to which major god and in which age. theres always two columns to each of the three major gods and one row for each age. there can ONLY be three minor gods to each age. often, itll be evenly divided so that no combination is repeated in the same age, but in other cases, a minor god will be available to all three major gods (for example, Hekate is available to all three of the Greek major gods). this also means that one of the major gods will get one god that neither of the other do. (again referencing the greek faction, Persephone is only available Hades)

following the pantheon setup is details on each of the major gods, listed first good, then neutral, then evil, like this:

(major god)

-- god of... (whatever that god embodies, a basic description of their role, ie "god of weather")

-- Traits: (the inherent benefits of worshipping this god, which generally make a particular type of unit better, ex: infantry do more damage, ships are faster, buildings have more health)

-- Bonus: (each major god has a bonus that more radically affects gameplay, slightly bending the rules, ex: Hades has EREBUS, which makes dead soldiers occassionally return as Shades to fight again)

-- Technology: (each major god also has a unique technology which can typically be researched fromthe very beginning, and is usually relevent to their traits or to their mythology, ex: Poseidon's tech is LORD OF HORSES, which makes cavalry faster)

-- God Power: (finally, the godpower that the major god grants upon starting the game. these are generally less powerful than later godpowers because they are from the very beginning, but their uses vary, and should typically have something to do with the major god or what they embody, ex: Zeus' godpower is BOLT, which smites an enemy, but that one is more powerful than most other major god godpowers)

that's repeated two more times so theres one for each major god

then, in my own documents at least, theres another table that displays each phase and the three minor gods for each one: first Town Phase (Village Phase is what the game starts in), then City, Empire, and Legend. minor gods are displayed like this:

(minor god)

-- god of... (same as before, but roughly abbreviated)

-- Focus: (whatever portions of gameplay the minor god benefits, this actually doesnt have any influence on gameplay, but helps the player get an idea of what theyll be getting)

-- Technology: (technologies that can be researched that are unique to that minor god, there can be from 1-4 technologies to each minor god, approximately, and in some cases, at least one should improve the myth unit that they grant, ex: Demeter's PARTHENOGENESIS makes her Hamadryads train faster)

-- Myth Unit: (the mythological units that the minor god grants. these should ideally be relevent to what the god does, ex: Demeter's is Hamadryad, Ares' is Stymphalian Bird, but its not absolutely necessary. if it can be relevent to a major god they are specifically included for, it works that way, too)

-- God Power: (again, the godpower that the minor god grants upon advancement through them. these are also usually relevent to what the minor god is about, but also not absolutely necessary, ex: the Egyptian Anubis has the godpower Boils, which is relevent to egypt, but not to Anubis specifically)

-- Availability: (this is just for quick reference, referring to what major gods that minor god is available to)

remember, there are three minor gods to each phase, and four phases in which they come into play

id also like to say that technologies granted by gods dont necessarily have to be mythological in origin, they could also be relevent to that countries history. for instance, Athena could grant some kind of mathematics-related technology, and different norse gods could give technologies relevent to ships since the vikings specialized in attacks from the sea

[Aldandil]

Hmmm... what units do the Cro-magnons have? Do they have cavalry, for example? Boats?

Or feel free to tell me you don't want to give them animal totems, then I won't go to the trouble of making them up. The Titans actually work fine, Cro-Magnons is a just strange name to me.

[oshron]

cro-magnons are really just modern man in the prehistoric era; their scientific name is the same as ours, Homo sapiens (present-day humans are actually a subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens). and i wouldnt put a totem-based cro-magnon culture out of reach just yet, we should look into that at least, but for the time being, theyll remain titan-worshippers

as for cro-magnon units, here's what i have so far:

a currently unnamed spearman

a currently unnamed slinger

Mamutoi "Mammoth Hunter" (Javelinist)

Zealandonii (Cavalry Swordsman); technically armed with an axe

a currently unnamed hunting dog that serves as a cavalry spearman (this stems from a celtic cavalry unit that will be in for 0ad, which is also a hunting dog)

"Maharen" (Ram); i cant remember if this is the name i came up with for the cro-magnon's battering ram or if its leftover from a previous faction, the template of which i copied for the cro-magnons)

Ramudoi (Bireme); the only cro-magnon ship

Shamudoi Mut (Super Unit); war mastodon

and yes, those names are borrowed from Clan of teh Cave Bear, which i honestly havent read that much of yet

and their heroes are:

Chieftain (Sovereign-type unit)

Shaman or "Mog-ur" (Sovereign-type unit); this is one thing that helps differentiate the cro-magnons from other sovereign factions

in response to your actual question, yes, teh cro-magnons do have cavalry, siege, and boats just like other cultures, but they have far less and they would be less effective than other factions because theyre still very primitive. theyre a more infantry-oriented culture, and their mythological units are a bit more powerful to compensate for the rest of it. with the cultures that lack in a certain department, theyll get more or more powerful myth units to compensate

Edited April 14, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

I suggest not blatantly taking names from the books, especially since they don't really fit and there's no need. Every other faction will have special names for their units, so it should be fine to use mdoern English for just one faction.

I admit, I'm having trouble inventing an animal totem pantheon. I can try to help with god powers or technology (I doubt I'll be able to contribute many) if you tell me which gods in which pantheons are missing what. (unless the list of what you've already invented is shorter!). Otherwise, here're my animal gods ideas:

Tarpan

-- "good" god of fertility

Town: Sabreteooth, Shelk

City: Bear, Deer

Empire: Wheat, Wolf

Legend: Willow, Sturgeon

Improves speed of all units.

Aurochs

-- "neutral" god of hunting

Town: Mammoth, Shelk

City: Beaver, Bear

Empire: Bison, Wheat

Legend: Raven (or Eagle), Willow

Lion

-- "evil" god of war

Town : Mammoth, Sabreteooth

City: Beaver, Deer

Empire: Bison, Wolf

Legend: Raven (or Eagle), Sturgeon

Improves attack damage of all units.

Beaver

- god of building and engineering

- benefits buildings, making them faster to build

Bear

- improves the efficiency of your citizens in gathering wild food

- myth unit: cave bear

Sturgeon

- god of the waters

- improves the speed or strength of boats (they've got to have some boats, right?)

Deer

- god of magic

- benefit: something that makes your magic-wielding units more effective, maybe improving their speed

- myth unit: deer shapeshifter (or technology that lets the regular shamans/clerics/magicians shapeshift into deer)

http://www.museoorigini.it/pagina85.html

Mammoth

- myth unit: woolly mammoth

Sabretooth

- myth unit: sabretooth

Shelk

- myth unit: giant deer

Wheat

- god of agriculture

- improves the yield of crops and efficiency of your citizen farmers

Willow

- god of healing and medicine

- benefits healers by buffing how much they can heal, or allowing you to research a tech that gives them a stronger healing power

Wolf

- god of cooperation and community

- myth unit: pack of dire wolves

Edited April 14, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

see, thats the problem i came to when i tried to make totems, i didnt want to just make up, like, a mammoth god and then have their myth unit be "mammoth", i want to be a little more creative than that. dont get me wrong, i appreciate your content and will put those gods into consideration(maybe some of their ideas will either be reimplemented in new totems or transferred over to appropriate titans) but it would just seem a bit less creative and more contrived than the other factions, or something like that. it would also be a good idea to look into evidence of paleo- and neolithic religion for more ideas, and take cave paintings into account as well when looking for gods or myth units

and, though its technically incorrect, id personally like to include some dinosaurs as myth units for the cro-magnons. as i said, i know its incorrect, but who's to say the the titans couldnt bring prehistoric animals back to life? plus, fossils are often cited as the possible origins of dragon legends. i think ill try to keep dinosaurs to a minimum and try to use cryptids as bases for dinosaur myth units. here's some examples of dinosaurs that could be implemented for teh cro-magnons, and technically fit into their timeframe:

Churubusco: supposed giant snapping turtle

Emela-ntouka: semi-aquatic horned reptile

Kasai Rex: tyrannosaur or carcharodontosaur

Mbielu-mbielu-mbielu: semiaquatic stegosaur, possibly Kentrosaurus

Mokele-mbembe: semiaquatic brontosaur

Muhuru: jungle stegosaur

Ngoubou: ceratopsian (like triceratops)

Nguma-monene: ridge-backed giant lizard

Kongamato: giant pterosaur

Mahamba: giant crocodile

Ngoima: giant eagle

okay, so not all of them are dinosaurs, but they still fit the criteria

Edited April 14, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

The problem with trying to base it on evidence about real paleolithic religion is that there is too little information. No scholars actually know what the cave-paintings, plump woman/goddess/fertility scuptures, or lion-man figure represented or what they were for. People can make reasonable guesses that could be true, but there's no way to know. If you see some "theory" that claims to know, it's wise to be skeptical. Likewise, the religions of other non-writing cultures (like neolithic people, and the Minoans) are unknown. Hence, using Titans (or animal-gods) is still a better idea.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree about using dinosaurs as myth units. Or perhaps I can convince you that the "dinosaurian" editor-only faction could have dinosaurs and pterosaurs for all their myth units, and the Cro-Magnons could have just ice-age animals, a wizard/magician/sorcerer, a shapeshifting deer-man, a lion-headed man, cryptids (just European, North African, and West Asian, since the Titans are a Mediterranean pantheon) and... mammoth mahouts! In fact I thought of a few more extinct animals you could use:

Pygmy Hippo. An extinct animal of Cyprus. It's small, but it still has a nasty bite.

Sivathere. A horned animal related to giraffes, but more resembling a moose.

Elasmothere. A huge rhinoceros the size of a mammoth, with a massive forehead horn several feet long. Also known as the "Giant Unicorn."

You could stretch it to include animals from the early Pleistocene, then you could also use giant hyenas, mastodons (Anancus, four-tuskers, and/or Gomphotheres), full-sized hippos, and giant wild dogs.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

i personally just REALLY want to include dinosaurs as cro-magnon myth units, but know that im doing so in moderation: all of the cryptids i listed are from regions where cro-magnons were present and were sighted in the modern period, which technically puts them into the timeframe of cro-magnons: if theyre around today, they must have been around then, and since theyre cryptids, they also fall into the category of fantastical/mythic creature, even if its not on the same level as creatures liek centaurs or trolls. but yeah, i think ill try to get more correct animals as most of their myth units, mostly plio-pleistocene animals

[Aldandil]

Yeah, I prefer the idea of using cryptids for dinosaurs. As you said, cryptids are a kind of mythical creature. The trouble to me is using cryptids that come from modern cultures, living today, that (given infinite time and resources) would actually be their own factions. For example, the Kongamato belongs to the myths of some modern African ethnic group who aren't any more prehistoric than the Greeks and their Centaurs.

Of course, the problem with using European cryptids is that they, too, are associated with more recent, historical ethnic groups. It's an issue for all cryptids.

It's kinda too bad that the European cave-painters were so dedicated to recognizable depictions of real animals. If they'd knocked themselves out with painting all sorts of fantastical monsters, none of this would be a problem. As it is, their art only features three fantastical beings that I know of: the "licorne," the deer-man "sorcerer," and the "lion man."

The Greeks did refer to the unknown prehistoric animals of Samos Island as Neades. (Neades is the plural -- I don't know what the singular is, maybe Neas). The fossils seem to be Miocene in age, and include Deinotheres (similar to elephants), Ancylotheres (a chalicothere genus), and/or Chilotheres (large, hornless rhinos with sharp teeth). The Deinotheres and Chilotheres are pretty similar to the mammoth and Pleistocene hippo, so personally I'd choose the Ancylothere, call it Neas, and give it the ability to cause a very small earthquake with its roar (based on the myths, based on the fossils!).

Or.... you could completely turn it around and make all the dinosaurs into Taniwha varieties, and give them all to the Polynesians. I don't know if dinosaurs lived in Polynesia (probably not) but it fits the Taniwha (though personally I'm fond of draconic Taniwha).

Edited April 15, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

i WAS planning to fill in some of the polynesian myth units with select prehistoric megafauna, but no dinosaurs. even then, it would only be one or two megafauna, like the megalania. actually, now that i think about it, theres a pretty cool giant pliocene shark called megalodon that would make a pretty good polynesian unit; its fossils have been found from east asia to south america, so its clearly a pacific animal and therefore fits into polynesian criteria

and, actually, cro-magnons(and other species of human) originated in africa, so the african cryptids technically fit them as well. but the real reason its mostly african cryptids is not only because theyre the ones that actually look like dinosaurs, but also because they already have authentic names and i dont have to make something up, and alot of them have cool traits that would serve as their abilities. kongamato, for instance, is known for attacking boats, so he would be an anti-boat unit and would probably have some kind of divebombing attack

im not gonna give up on including dinosaurs as cro-magnon myth units

[Aldandil]

I will convert you yet!

I understand the reason for using the African animals, and your argument does make sense. I guess it's the European-specific reference point of the name Cro-Magnon, and the European nature of the Titans, that makes me leery of using cryptids from far afield. But... you have a good point.

Must... not... be... persuaded.

The Polynesians can have the giant eagle, though. Not only did giant, moa-eating eagles live in New Zealand, but the Maori have myths about them.

On the subject of cryptids, there are a few more you haven't listed that may interest you: the Nandi Bear (aka Duba, Kerit, Chimisit, Kikambangwe, Vere, Sabrookoo) which resembles a giant, shaggy hyena (one of its names could simply be used for the prehistoric giant hyena, if you wanted); the Guiafairo (aka Kikiyaon, Soul Cannibal), a flying, pterodactyl-like creature supposedly summoned by witches; and the Sasabonsam, a bizarre flying humanoid cryptid.

Actually, most of those dinosaur-like cryptids I haven't heard of, and I'm quite curious to know more about them. Is there info about Churubusco, Kasai (Rex?), Mbielu-mbielu-mbielu, Muhuru, Ngoubou, Nguma-monene, and/or Ngoima online?

Edited April 15, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

I understand the reason for using the African animals, and your argument does make sense. I guess it's the European-specific reference point of the name Cro-Magnon, and the European nature of the Titans, that makes me leery of using cryptids from far afield. But... you have a good point.

maybe i SHOULD try to come up with a different name for them. in actuality, theyre only called cro-magnons because the first discoveries were in france; they were actually very spread out

The Polynesians can have the giant eagle, though. Not only did giant, moa-eating eagles live in New Zealand, but the Maori have myths about them.

yeah, i was planning to give the polynesians a haast's eagle-type unit. it would probably be a pretty early unit

On the subject of cryptids, there are a few more you haven't listed that may interest you: the Nandi Bear (aka Duba, Kerit, Chimisit, Kikambangwe, Vere, Sabrookoo) which resembles a giant, shaggy hyena (one of its names could simply be used for the prehistoric giant hyena, if you wanted); the Guiafairo (aka Kikiyaon, Soul Cannibal), a flying, pterodactyl-like creature supposedly summoned by witches; and the Sasabonsam, a bizarre flying humanoid cryptid.

ill look into those ones

Actually, most of those dinosaur-like cryptids I haven't heard of, and I'm quite curious to know more about them. Is there info about Churubusco, Kasai (Rex?), Mbielu-mbielu-mbielu, Muhuru, Ngoubou, Nguma-monene, and/or Ngoima online?

yeah, if you look them up on wikipedia there should be entire pages for them

[Aldandil]

ill look into those ones

I can post or PM the descriptions I have.

[oshron]

nah, ill do it myself

oh! i forgot to mention earlier, "Churubusco" itself isnt a cryptid, its a place; i just decided to shorten "Churubusco Turtle" to that

EDIT: oh, and another thing im actually trying to do is not necessarily include alot of later pleistocene animals under their actual names as myth units for the cro-magnons because i kinda want to save them as wildlife animals (another idea i had was to have a general setup of bestiary for each culture, like the celts would have animals endemic to britain and the aztecs would have animals from the southern regions of north america). here's some cro-magnon myth units i have down thus far:

War Rhinoceros (basically semi-tamed woolly rhinoceros with new wooden armor(no metal, so sturdy wood plus thick hair and hides)

Dire Wolf (semi-tamed dire wolf, perhaps with some kind of warpaint to further differentiate it from other wolfish myth units)

Kerit (this is apparently the native name of the nandi bear, but its otherwise the same as you suggested: a cave hyena)

Ngoubou (a sort-of scaled down triceratops, because ngoubou is reportedly smaller than triceratops but otherwise the same)

Mahamba (a giant crocodile, a naval myth unit)

Giant Lion (a cave lion)

Ennedi Tiger (just a saber-toothed cat, this is ALSO an african cryptid, supposedly from Chad and pretty much being a smilodon)

Gazeka ("devil pig" resembling a tapir or ground sloth, this one is actually from new guinea! i figure it could be a weak animal and maybe also be slaughtered for food if necessary)

Edited April 15, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

It is going to be difficult to have the wild animals resemble the myth units, you're right about that. Some species have two or mroe different names that can be used but even then, physically they'll still look the same. Also, I don't know how you'll find cryptid names for all of the animals. It's a sensible concern, I just don't know if you'll be able to get it the way you want using that method.

Gazeka is from New Guinea? That's completely outside the range of the Pleistocene Cro-Magnons, and how can something look like a tapir and a ground sloth at the same time? Those two animals are nothing alike.

A Neas/Ancylotherium would be pretty similar to a ground sloth. For that matter, a Neas/Chilotherium would be similar to a tapir, being semi-aquatic with sharp teeth. Perhaps you could even have three Neades: Lesser Neas (Ancylothere), Water Neas (Chilothere), and Greater Neas (Deinothere), which would cover three different prehistoric animals.

Some other names that could work:

Mammut = mammoth, and not necessarily a woolly mammoth, any species will do (the woolly species would look out of place next to the African dinosaurs and Greek Titans, IMO) or it could even apply to a mastodon such as Anancus

Shelk or Giant Stag = Megaloceros

Giant Unicorn = Elasmotherium

I can't think of a good name to replace Sivathere, but not all of them need to be wildlife.

Just so you know, dire wolves weren't actually any larger than grey wolves -- it's a common misconception, perpetuated by inaccurate depictions. If you want giant wolves, I think Giant Wolf is a fine name, though they might be overly similar to other dog or wolf units. Please tell me the Celts are going to get Red-eared White Hounds of the Wild Hunt as a myth unit? That would be cool.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

It is going to be difficult to have the wild animals resemble the myth units, you're right about that. Some species have two or mroe different names that can be used but even then, physically they'll still look the same. Also, I don't know how you'll find cryptid names for all of the animals. It's a sensible concern, I just don't know if you'll be able to get it the way you want using that method.

there will need to be some stretches, but i think im doing pretty good so far

Gazeka is from New Guinea? That's completely outside the range of the Pleistocene Cro-Magnons, and how can something look like a tapir and a ground sloth at the same time? Those two animals are nothing alike.

yeah, i was starting to have second thoughts about it, too. maybe Mapinguari would be a better choice (basically just a ground sloth, dont know what it'd do, though)

A Neas/Ancylotherium would be pretty similar to a ground sloth. For that matter, a Neas/Chilotherium would be similar to a tapir, being semi-aquatic with sharp teeth. Perhaps you could even have three Neades: Lesser Neas (Ancylothere), Water Neas (Chilothere), and Greater Neas (Deinothere), which would cover three different prehistoric animals.

yeah, im familiar with alot of those guys; im actually a prehistory buff, and thats one of the reasons i wanted to have cro-magnons in the first place

Mammut = mammoth, and not necessarily a woolly mammoth, any species will do (the woolly species would look out of place next to the African dinosaurs and Greek Titans, IMO) or it could even apply to a mastodon such as Anancus

Shelk or Giant Stag = Megaloceros

Giant Unicorn = Elasmotherium

i had thought of having a "Unicorn Rhino" type myth unit, but i decided i would just replace it with "war rhinoceros" which is just an armored rhinoceros. perhaps Elasmotherium could be represented as the christian myth unit "unicorn" (theres rumors that the animal has existed for longer than previously thought, and it would also make it a good early myth unit)

im not too sure about having megaloceros as a myth unit, i was kinda planning to have it as a wild animal instead

anancus, however, looks like a pretty good idea. those long tusks look like they would make a great anti-cavalry unit, or maybe even a living siege unit (the cro-magnons will DEFINITELY need some of those)

Just so you know, dire wolves weren't actually any larger than grey wolves -- it's a common misconception, perpetuated by inaccurate depictions. If you want giant wolves, I think Giant Wolf is a fine name, though they might be overly similar to other dog or wolf units. Please tell me the Celts are going to get Red-eared White Hounds of the Wild Hunt as a myth unit? That would be cool.

according to my research, dire wolves ARE larger. maybe not terribly significantly, but they will be. i think ill give them the special ability of the fenris wolf brood from AOM, where they become more powerful in packs

i hadnt thought of or even HEARD of those "red-eared white hounds of the wild hunt", but maybe that could work. yeah, they could! belenus doesnt have a myth unit yet! ill put that down right now!

...uhm, where could i find some information on them?

EDIT: also, ideally, the cro-magnons should have two myth units to each god, a land one and a naval one, though i could probably let one god per phase go by without a naval myth unit

Edited April 15, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Cwn_Annwn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C5%B5n_Annwn

There ya go.

Dire wolves and ground sloths are both American animals, so like the Gazeka, they're out of the general range of Ice Age people. That's why I suggested Ancylotherium and early Pleistocene giant wild dogs.

If you do decide to include American animals, ground sloths had thin armor under their fur, and their claws were nasty.

I don't know if Anancus would work as a seige unit. For cavalry they'd be great, even if their faction don't have any metal sharp enough to tip their tusks. They might be able to attack wooden doors, I don't know how much force an elephant's tusks can take. But I can't imagine them being helpful against stone buildings, except as crude ladders.

I don't know what to do about naval myth units. I think you already gave krakens and sea serpents to other factions, right? I guess that since they have the Titans for gods, and the Ophitauros was involved in the Titanomakhia in some way, you could use it, but that's a stretch since it's Greek, and unlike the Neades it isn't prehistoric.

[oshron]

what i was planning for cro-magnon naval myth units are, again, prehistoric marine animals. if nothing else, they could have simple sharks, maybe a hammerhead (which, incidentally, has been around since before humans, iirc, like the pliocene). but some that i had in mind would probably be like some of the prehistoric creatures seen in the sega arcade game Ocean Hunter; in the second to last level, all of the enemies are prehistoric: mosasaurs, dunkleosteus, pterygotus, a basilosaurus miniboss, anomalocarids, and ammonites. speaking of which, there was actually an idea for a hittite myth unit on another board called "Predammonite" which is essentially just a kracken with an ammonite shell, maybe something could be made of that.

ive actually already got a few naval myth units for teh cro-magnons down, so that already slims down the list a bit:

Mbielu-mbielu-mbielu (an amphibious kentrosaur-type stegosaur, maybe it could have a similar effect to the lambton knight because of all its spikes)

Mahamba (a giant crocodile, i figured this one could be classified as a relict deinosuchus, which was a giant crocodile from the cretaceous, or, to be more correct since its from africa, maybe sarcosuchus, or maybe just a plain old giant crocodile)

Churubusco (this guy would fill the same role as the Egyptian War Turtle from AOM, having a sort of aquatic bucking attack and otherwise biting, since its a snapping turtle)

Mokele-mbembe (fictionalized version of a stereotypical brontosaur, entirely aquatic for balance)

[Aldandil]

You could perhaps also give them a lake serpent with somewhat different stats from the sea serpents in the game (to keep it unique). I don't really know what else to add. I guess I'm not very familiar with prehistoric marine mammals.

There is a Odobenocetops (dolphin with walrus-like tusks), and desmostylians. That's two animals, and more recent than Basilosaurus. However, Odobenocetops is only from South America, and desmostylians are only from the north Pacific.

Megalodon you mentioned, and since the Polynesians will have several naval units and have numerous types of Taniwha to use for naval myth units, I recommend giving the Megalodon to the Cro-Magnons. According to Wikipedia at least, they lived all over the world and survived at least somewhere until the Pliocene or maybe even the Pleistocene. If you still want the Polynesians to have a shark myth unit, you could give them weresharks: they wouldn't turn into such huge sharks, but they'd double as infantry units on land.

speaking of which, there was actually an idea for a hittite myth unit on another board called "Predammonite" which is essentially just a kracken with an ammonite shell, maybe something could be made of that.

Did they base it on a myth? Because it just looks like predator + ammonite, and ammonite isn't a mythical creature at all. It was named by scientists.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Aldandil

[oshron]

well i think it was supposed to be like the creature that killed the trojan man--i forget his name--who tried to warn priam that the trojan horse was a trick

yeah, i know about odobenocetops; i saw Chased by Sea Monsters, too its not necessarily marine mammals that im going for, ill probably try/need to include some mesozoic marine reptiles or more ancient creatures. oh! i know! Predator X! supposedly the largest pliosaur ever, it could probably make a decent late game myth unit. ive got a name and everything: Cronus Monster, in reference to kronosaurus

Edited April 16, 2010 by oshron

[Aldandil]

well i think it was supposed to be like the creature that killed the trojan man--i forget his name--who tried to warn priam that the trojan horse was a trick

Laocoon, I think. But it was sent by the Olympians, so the Hittites shouldn't have it. It's just a Ketos.

[oshron]

(shrug) whatever. i decided to put "Giant Ammonite" down as a myth unit for teh cro-magnons, anyway