AtlasMapper

@feneur: Well it is different parts in many messages, so lots of modification, complicated for me to explain, and for little benefits. And as Palaxin already added links between both topics, it is ok. @feneur, @sanderd17: About the map resizing, yes I know there is a tool in Atlas, but as it is said in Atlas, it is experimental.. And it resize indeed, messing everything apart. What I would like is to crop the map, just remove some tiles, ie. like a colomn of 100 tiles on a side of the whole map, without any other modification on the other tiles. So I was looking for some size informations in the .xml file, but then I suppose these informations are in the .pmp file instead ? Acting on the .pmp file then ? On what data/part the script would act ? Are you suggesting it would be too complicated for me, if I don't have the scripting knowledge ? Don't waste too much time explaining if the ratio benefit/complexity+dangerousness is too low. I just created a map that is too big, I want to improve its game speed for users. Yes I know it (I couldn't do some islands if I wouldn't). My explanation was confusing. What I meant is: I want to create a lake in the top of a mountain (you can see it on the first previous screenshot), so I can't fill it with real water (water that fill the oceans in my map). So I just put some water textures to simulate a lake.. But I find it ugly. I was wondering if there are any other tricky ways to create lakes or rivers on places higher than the water level. Thanks for the info about scenario/skirmish difference. It is clear now.

@mimo: Yes A19. I found it, thanks! That would be nice if you update the wiki accordingly. Oh nice. As the error messages contains "ai/petra", attackPlan etc. I was suspecting a bug in the code that might affect other players. So if you fixed it already, it is all good. I'll tell you if I have the same error with A20 on the same map. Many thanks, again.

I love the capturing system, it makes the game much more strategic, fun, and even realistic in a way. I love stuffs like Persian can have an upgrade that boost by +25% the capturing time. It makes bigger strategic differences and choices for factions. Having capture option by default is not a problem for me. Surely, some balancing could make more people happy, but it is not at all confusing for me. I disagree: no buildings should be immune to capture. But some should be harder to capture. Eg. a barracks is supposed to be generating units.. So when fully garrisoned, it should be much more hard to capture (so longer than the destroying time). But tower should still be captured easily. It is a mandatory in the A19 strategy, in my opinion. Also, I think when a building become captured, the garnison shouldn't be captured too, but moved out from the building.

Well you're quite impatient ! As I said, it was just a preview of the ongoing work : I improved it, it will more look like this: Global map: From UK, north Africa looks smaller: France, with Alps and Pyrenees: Deutschland wieder alles im der Zeit: Italy, Caspian see, Sicilia, Corse and Sardinia: Spain: Tunisia: I followed your schema, I did actually start from an area a bit more in the north than you (you'll see more Ireland, and even Denmark on my map) to make North Africa smaller. Moreover if I move the area more in the North, Ships won't be able to pass on the weast of Spain, or on the east of Italia to Caspian sea. Well actually, it is not so easy to do, it doesn't work like a frame that you move on a map.. If I would make "a bit smaller" that part, I need to redraw everything from start... That would be lots of work for a minor modification. I won't do that. Moreover, that part will be mostly some desert, so players won't move much there. It will be mostly an area in shadows. You could also use this specificity to make some interesting game features. For example you can create some oasis in the desert with some treasures, to reward players who explore this area. I'll try to add this example while texturing. As I said, it was an ongoing work.. There is one pass in the Alps now (I'll make it better a bit later), and you can pass in the north of the beach. It doesn't look like a terrace now. You'll see better with the right texture. If you flatten the beach, take care not to destroy the shore line... Modifying areas close to river or coast will be very dangerous if you're not experienced. It is easier to start on mountains and underwater areas. Haha don't worry, I won't do stuff if I don't have the time to do so. But as I am waiting for the A20 release, most of my other projects are sort of suspended for now. And I also like to make some pauses, by working on different things, to improve my creativity on projects. But ok, if you're not sure to work on the other one for now, I might wait before doing it. Or maybe I'll do it if I'm bored. We'll see. I should be able to post the playable map in the next few days. @wowgetoffyourcellphone: Guys, I don't think you understand how the heightmap tool works. I think you should try to import maps by yourself, and also try to create realistic maps with your own hands: this way you'll see how messy and how highly difficult it is. I need to draw everything by hand to get satisfactory results. It takes me hours to get some realistic map, only for the topography modeling. So my work is not a simple heightmap import, It is a full 3D model.

@sanderd17: Linux, no replay data in the mentioned folder.

Oh, and question 3: we can't change the level of water. So in order to place a lake in the top of one mountain, I had to add water textures... But I find it really horrible. Has anybody any hint or tips on how to set up nice lake or rivers on places higher than the water level ? Thanks. And (again) question 4: I would like to resize my map. There are some unused water areas, I think I could lower potential lag issue if the map is smaller. I believed I could do so by modifying the .xml file, but I don't see any information about the size of the map. Is it possible to manually trunk or change the map size ?

@feneur: well Palaxin already created a new topic, so I don't know if it will be easy for you to do it. Nevermind, I should have asked you before. Thanks anyway. So returning back (again) to the topic, here are some final screenshots from battles on the map. @wowgetoffyourcellphone: you'll see on these examples that you have lots of room to build big cities. I think the map is done now, ready for a beta test with other players (if any interested). I have two more questions, however: Using Atlas, I set up some custom limits in the starting resources, and max population. It is indicated on the .xml file of the map with informations such as "PopulationLimit": 250, "Resources": { "stone": 0 } But when I load the game, the limits are not applied. How does it works ? I could post the map file now, but as Alpha20 seems to be imminent, I think it is best to test it with the A20 before. I can't see when A20 will be out, and what will be included in it. Is there any information about it ? What important changes or features could imply some maps modifications ? Thanks.

So here we go! The map will actually look like this (just a shore prototype, still need some work, especially with mountains): So it should cover the area you are expecting. Size 512x512. About your schema, it's a bit surprising to imagine land unit coming by feet from morocco to spain, or from sicilia to italia, but well, it is up to you. Actually, these areas are very close to each other as you can see on the screenshot, so it will be easy to set up. Anyway if such very small areas doesn't fit your need, you'll be able to adjust them very easily, even after the 3D model will be done: lowering only a few squares to allow land units to pass is really easy. But I'll try to do it by myself. About the mountains, I will draw them from real maps, so it will be some natural walls to units. I just have to set up the right height for them. But there should be more passages ways than you think, if we respect the reality (eg. units should be able to pass from italia to france by the south of the alps), but again, it might be easily modified to fit your gameplay needs, if you find it relevant. About the swamps/forests, you'll put them by yourself. Setting the whole netherland, north germany, and south denmark under the swamps it a little bit rude for these countries but again, if you find it fun, it's up to you. There will still be natural rivers there. It should be easy to expand them into swamps. As you can see, the 3D models (boths west and east) should be ready when you'll be back, in one month. I have some important recommendations, however: You'll obviously start by completing texturing. But then don't head directly to put units and buildings everywhere. Even if you have a scenario in mind (whatever if you plan to use triggers or not), first complete the map in a skirmish mode. What I mean is just some CC from each factions, to easily test the playability of the map. I'll put some on the 3D model, and I'll deliver the map as a skirmish. You'll need to add and balance the resources, forests, etc. This way, you'll see the features of the map, in term of relief especially, if you need to improve some road, block some access, etc. You can even simulate battles with AI only. This way you'll realy realize how the game will go on this map. If you put already units everywhere, you won't be able to easily see issues, and if they comes from the land, resources, or units. Modifying textures and land will be a pain, too. From the skirmish file, you'll be able to easily resave it as a copy and work on it as a scenario without any problem. That's an important advice I should tell, because I did make this error. Proceed step by step, you'll gain some time in the end. But for now, think about your thesis

It did occur while testing one of the map I am creating. So if you don't have the map .xml file, it is useless to give you the command.txt because you won't be able to reproduce the error. Then, if the error occurs on a custom, user-specific map, I guess it is worthless to check it. It is, again, probably nothing more than an user-specific problem, don't waste your time with it. I was supposing the error might be related to a code mistake on the specified part, and it might affect other players, but I am probably wrong. I was just trying to help. I won't bother you anymore with my "bugs". Moreover, the GameDataPaths you mention frequently is not up to date, and there is no command.txt file in the directory mentioned in your wiki link.

Hello guys, During a game I did face a bug, while using the in-game action/task queue feature (shift + action): at some point, a lots of errors and messages did appear, and the units did seem to be lost for a while. I did set another action for my units, and they did go to other tasks, but the error messages did keep displaying in an infinite loop. Here is the content (transcribed) of the error messages: JavaScriptError: simulation/ai/petra/attackPlan.js line 394 Type Error: this.queue is undefined m.AttackPlan.prototype.update Preparation@simulation/ai/petra/attackPlan.js 394:4 ~attackManager.js:137:8 ~headquarters.js:2057:3 ~petrabot.js:123:3 ~common-api/baseAI.js:81:2 I hope it will help.

@wackyserious: Yes, it is exactly why I find this map fun to play It is also naval but not messy (because only 3 islands, and limited shores/docking options), very strategic because of the landform and the need of resources. You can also create several little cities on each island, then create markets and merchants traveling on your island. It is actually the first time I could make this important use of merchants, I don't really have the time or opportunity on other maps (it actually breaks the resource issue a bit too much to me, but then, targeting enemy's market and merchants is a very important strategy). About the environment settings: thanks for this tip. I am aware of these options, and already set the water (color and waviness, notably). But about the fog, it might be beautiful, but I avoid using it: it doesn't look so good and useful on my islands, and it tends to slow the map (it is quite big). I am afraid it induces lags on other computers too. I would like playability should be a priority over the nice look of the map. But I'll follow your advice and I'll try to make it better in the end.

@Palaxin: Oh I see. Actually I had the opposite in mind, with zoomed in areas. Actually, I tend to do the opposite, for several reasons: When you create maps based on a huge area, there is a big scale shift between units, and battles are less realistic to me. Because of that scale problem, some area might look strange. Some shores are reduced to the minimum. Another point: eg. on the west map, the Corsica island would be so tiny that when texturing, you can only add beach texturing, but the area is much more complex, including mountains, etc. But almost no room for texturing on this complex island on big maps. The maps should also be as huge a possible to allow enough details, and very long to draw. Texturing, especially, would take me ages, because these map would include lots of different biomes. I draw Mediterranean Islands also because I am now quite familiar with this biome textures. But even with this (starting skill), it takes me lots of time to texture it. So switching between temperate, mediteranean, alpine, etc etc texures would be very long for somebody that texture like me. For technical reasons, it would be quite difficult for me, if even possible, to test huge maps with lots of factions. So I could create them, but couldn't really balance these maps. But I understand why you would like to set up wars on such "total" maps. Even if it is not the kind of battles I am looking for, I understand your idea and I would like to help you. So here is my proposal: I can take in charge the 3D modeling for these maps, draw some basic texturing (then deliver the two very realistic, yet unfinished maps, it will look like the first screenshots on this post). I could also add some basic resources, to make a minimum playable map. You could then complete the maps by finishing texturing and adding resources, balancing. Then you should test the map with multiple AI. For now, I can't do that. Just tell me if this proposal sounds ok for you, especially if you're familiar with texturing. I already have the area to draw with your images. I suppose that I should draw them in the biggest map size format available ? Or would you like a smaller map ? Question for any moderator, how is that possible to split any conversation to another new post ? Just to keep the conversation stuck to the main topic ?

@sanderd17: Thanks. Well if it is really necessary, I'll try go on irc someday. You already know why I'm more on the forum, however. @Palaxin: Thank you for your support and nice comments! Yes, but you know how important it is to have some other people advice with a kind of beta testing. I more or less have the same kind of playing style, so in my tests even if I try to do efforts by using creative attacks and exotic strategies, testing it all by myself is always less efficient than others advices. And apparently, you already know how frustrating it might be to upload things without much feedback . It is not a problem of popularity checking, but rather a problem of efficient improvement and validation of our hard work. Haha nice, so I hope you'll give me advices on how to balance well the resources-based gameplay, I'll try to post very soon the first beta version of the Aeolian map. Nice ! About your first proposal, western Mediterranean, I was thinking about creating the Balearic islands (http://osm.org/go/xRff5p--) for my next project (I love to map islands so much..). Probably Mallorca alone, because the island is quite big. It should be a nice place to setup battles between Iberians, Gauls, Romans and Carthaginians (however, I don't know if there are know historic battles between these factions, it is probably because of the location of the island). Or do you have any other specific idea of some areas where the battles could happen ? Around Spain ? There are already some map in the south of France. About east Mediteranean, (and especially the battle of Thermopylae), there is already a nice map available in the game, the ancient Greek map. This is the right place to set up such battles I guess. So it might be a pity to redraw this map. Or maybe do you think about a "zoom" on a part of the Greece where the battle happened ? To complete my answer, I am also creating the Crete map (https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/20554-new-map-crete/), and as described, I have some scenario ideas (and even campaigns ideas) on this map. I don't know if it might fits what you have in mind ? But I am just at the beginning of the scripting stuff. I just started to script some attack on Malta Islands. It is working, but it is far from what I have in mind for a scenario. I don't know if you're already very familiar with scripting/using triggers ?

@Leyto: Really ? I'm surprised Asian and African species are in the main task list, because of the existing factions. And we don't even have cows for now ! But if asian and african species are in the list, there should be a reason. Anyway, I'm glad you're following the track list!

I just wanted to be sure: I'm trying to balance the resources, but I always seem to underestimates the resources I add. Sometimes I even wonder where the bot takes its resources from... So I wanted to check if I was missing something. It takes a lot of time to balance/test it. But I think I am close now. I wrote my detailed gameplay comments to show how much gameplay and fun is important for me when I create maps. In this specific case, aeolian islands, the topography is also an important part of the fun. The specific resource lack in some islands is the other part. But I have always fun, balance and gameplay in mind when I create my maps. Surely, I am still learning how to build them efficiently, and I am always trying to improve them. To evaluate the playability of my maps, you can have a try playing one of the other one I created, Cyprus Island (now beta1.3). You'll see you will not be limited in the creation of buildings because any lack of room there. And I hope you also will see the strict adherence to real world can match a suitable gameplay: the funny thing is that petra bot will naturally build cities on Cyprus where they really exist in the world, because there is some room and access to resources there, and as in the real world they are nice natural spot to place buildings. That is why I draw real world map: I believe the natural topography naturally gives fun gameplay opportunities. Yes I understand. I assure you have lot of room to develop your cities in the aeolian islands. You can see on the Lipari screenshot for example that you have way too much room than necessary. It is a weakness actually. On Vulcano and Salina, there is enough room too, and the places are naturally protected by hills and mountains, this is actually an advantage toward Lipari. No problem, any comment or advice is always welcome . You're invited to play on the Cyprus map. I am not really hurried to post the other maps for now, first because I am not satisfied enough on the gameplay, and secondly, because not much people seems to be interested by my maps. I mostly post my ongoing work to have a track of my work, and to help/motivate other people to create their own maps for the game. Also as I said, comments are always welcome. But I understand your doubts and comments. Don't worry, when I create a map, I want it to be fun to play, not only realistic. I find this one really fun so far!

The map is really fun! But I'm still balancing the resources on my map. I have some questions to fix it more easily. -Are they any formulas designed to define the "normal" and/or "minimum" amount of resources on map ? I see that in the random map scripts, resources amounts are defined, but it seems that different choices have been made depending on the script author. Is there any general purposes formulas that have been defined by developers ? It could help me to balance the map. -About the blacksmith upgrades on extracting resources: does the upgrades improve the extraction rates only, as I think, or does they also expand the available amount on a resource site (eg. one small stone spot = 1000 S.U., if stone extraction +20% -> small stone spot = 1200 S.U. ?). -Finally, since petra bot has a market on his territory, it should be able to convert resources as any other player (bartering ?). But can it really do it in games, or is this feature not implemented yet ? About the final game results, about resources exchanged, are they accurate, even for the bot ? In advance, thanks for the information.

So if everything is bundled with 0AD, there is nothing to check. Aren't they any dependencies that could be the origin of the problem ?

Returning back to the topic, the map is almost done! I am now testing it for balancing. Here are the final teasers, and some gameplay informations. Aeolian Islands: There are 3 differents islands on the map, each one showing some very different topography and resources availability. 1. Vulcano: Specs: Huge amount of wood, average metal, very low stone. The island is quite easy to manage in term of defense. There are a few docking spots, but the natural topography allow to set up some nice defenses. The resources are perfect to build wooden palisades and towers, as well as lots of low-stats units, war ships ans siege weapons. 2. Lipari: Specs: Huge amount of stone, high wood, very low metal. The island is the biggest, and as it is in the middle of the archipelago, it is the most obvious target to both others factions. Because of its topography, it is also more complex to build an effective defense. But the huge amount of stone on the island allows to build strong stone walls and towers everywhere. Because of the defect in metal, it might also be wise to focus on a high number of weak units (stage I-II), rather than fully upgraded, metal consuming units. Salina: Specs: Huge amount of metal, lots of stone, low wood. This island is a tank. Because of natural mountains and relief, and the very few dock spots it is really easy to build an fortress on it. There is also a completely protected place to set up an emergency bunker place. The low amount of wood will limit the amount of units/ships to be created, and some wise choices should be made before creating them. But the huge amount of metal allows to upgrade to stage III and produce upgraded units with metal armors. Basically, low number of units, but with the best stats! For any player, it should be very wise to build a market early in the gale, to try to balance and compensate the defect in particular resources. So each island offers a very different gameplay and strategies should be adapted accordingly. Of course, it would be better played multi, especially if people build diplomatic alliances and commercial partnerships. But even played alone, the map should have a very good replayability, by switching between islands and factions on it. I am now playing and balancing the map. I spent a lot of time to calculate the amount of resources, but I'll need lots of testing. Any comment or suggestions are welcome!

Yes, I see the post is 1.5 years old. Thanks anyway.

@niektb:Oh, I inderstand. I had a different timeframe in mind for 0AD (0 +/- 500, see 0AD homepage: “0 A.D.” is a time period that never actually existed: In the usual calendar, one goes from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. and skips zero. This reflects the historical fiction in the game: Who would have won if all the factions were pitted against each other when each of them was at its prime? We intend to portray some of the major civilizations over the millennium of 500 B.C. to 500 A.D. (Hence the midpoint, zero.) That is an ambitious prospect, so in the first edition of 0 A.D. we focus on the last five centuries B.C. Perhaps in future expansion packs, more civilizations will be added, along with additional gameplay features.). I thought development efforts would be mostly on 500BC-0. So if I read you well, 0-500 AD is actually totally skipped for now. I also saw a project about 1000AD, then there is a huge gap between both projects. I had in mind 0-500AD would have been already in development if people started working on factions after 1000AD. But it shouldn't be linked in any way with the main game development. I understand.

@Leyto: Oh fine, these models are interesting. I hope you'll eventually work on the textures of animals on european biomes too. I say that because most of the available factions are from Europe, and Mediterranean area. But it is also an "interested" comment, as I am creating Mediterranean islands maps. More goats and rabbits than gorillas and cobras there . Anyway, it is just a personal comment. The most important thing is that you should have some fun while doing your textures. Keep going with good work!

@aeonios:That's an interesting comment, thanks. I'll check is everything is fine on the JS side in my system.

Texturing almost done, just need to complete Salina. Vulcano + Lipari: Teasers on Lipari: Canneto bay + Pale Pomice Valle Muria: Teasers on Vulcano: There is also a complex history on the Island, with lots of battles such as Carthaginians against Rome, and - again, like for my Crete map - battles involving Vandals. I have a question, are north factions, such as Vandals, Visigoths, or Ostrogoths, planned ? They are involved in a number of wars against factions already exisiting in 0AD, from Rome and Greeks to Gauls. I would love to have a Vandal faction to set up some scenario on my Aeolian Islands, Crete and Cyprus maps.

New ongoing work, Aeolian islands, in the north of Sicilia. Here are 3 of these Islands, from north to south, Salina, Lipari, Vulcano. And here is my map (ongoing work): 3D modeling is complete (will be some little adjustments), work in progress on texturing and adding entities. Salina: Lipari: Vulcano: I have some fun gameplay ideas with this map. The different islands allow to imagine nice games.

@heyalex: I don't understand what deliveries are. But it is too early for me to give you so much details about the whole scenarii, if it is what you're asking. I need to (1) finish designing the map (including textures), (2) play on the map skirmishes to test the possibilities of the map - map design comes from reality, I must adapt the gameplay - balance resources and adjust the land accordingly (3) create and design towns according to the scenario I have in mind. Then I will need to set up scripts to control the game. If I understand well, I can't give you the information you're looking for. I'm still between steps (1) and (2).