wolflance

2.1) Normal bowman would be good. Do note that Tang infantry archer use longbow (self bow). 3) I mean a non-champion cavalry... 4) Yes, MoDao is used pretty much like a ZhanmaJian, there are even some text that directly equate MoDao to ancient horse chopper. I suggest both , Ranged infantry upgrade and (Champion) MoDao troop. 5) Personally I won't 'assume' anything when dealing with historical subject, unless there is at least some evidence to support it. The Byzantines which had Greek fire did not employ it on land warfare either (AFAIK), except as siege defense or in the form of handheld flamethrower. After cross-checked with your link, I found the reference on that Sijiao trebuchet., it is from Tai Bai Yin Jing. The generic term seems to be ‘Pao Che (砲車)', SiJiao Pao seems to be one of the variant while Whirlwind trebuchet is another variant. Tang Dynasty did use multi-shot siege crossbow, but it was called Che Nu (車弩) if Tai Bai Yin Jing is to be believed. Shoot seven bolts, one large bolt with six smaller bolts. I agree that no one can be certain about the exact date on the use multi-bow arcuballista, that's why I only go for specific mention in the context of Tang Dynasty. So far I could only find one mention of two-bows arcuballista, so I suggest use two-bow version just to be on the safe side. The image link is broken though... 6) Wikipedia source on Langshan Jiang quoted Needham, but I need to take a closer look at the primary sources. This battle is virtually unheard of by the Chinese themselves (except serious historians and those who played AoEII: Forgotten), so it might be quite hard. Note:《资治通鉴》 did not mention dragon ship.《吴越备史》 mention the weapon, but not the ship.

There is a Chinese-made Tang Dynasty AOEII mod somewhere. I can post some picture if I have the time, for reference only, of course.

@Ayakashi I read your proposal. Mind if I give some opinion? 1) Heroes - Some participant of the Battle of Talas ought to be included. Like Li Siye. 2.1) Infantry - Tang Dynasty is probably the only Chinese Dynasty where bow is more prominent than crossbow. Having two unit of crossbow unit is over-representing it... That is probably because Tang Infantry are really geared for getting into face-smashing range. Tang archers and crossbowmen are trained, expected, and regularly ordered to charge into melee combat after one or two volleys. 2.2) I think by medieval period, dedicated swordsman unit no longer plays any central role on the battlefield (unlike antiquity). So Chinese faction can make do without one - unless, that put the whole faction at a big disadvantage. 3) Cavalry - Need a heavy cavalry unit. 4) Champion Unit Tang had so many Imperial Guard unit so either one is fine. Note that MoDao is primary used by 1) (ordinary) archers and crossbowmen 2) Barrier troops/Blocking units - Used for execution of deserters, etc, that sort of thing. Maybe give it a buff aura or something. 3) Specialist troop. 5) Siege Unit Flamethrower is mostly a Song Dynasty thing, AFAIK. Tang Arcuballista has only one or two bows (兩弓弩). Never heard of the 四腳弩, although traction trebuchet are indeed already in common use. Uncertain about the 連弩 6) Naval Unit I know about the Naval Flamethrower (and the ‘decorate with silver‘ part), not sure about the name though. Dragon ship seems to be a AOE invention.

I just found some new information about the Han Dynasty archery, apparently the ordinary "cylinder quiver" was used as well. Han Dynasty bow and quiver found at Niya Site at Tarim Basin. The bow was found together with this archery bracer, which become the national treasure of China. This reconstruction of hǔ bēn （虎贲）palace guard used a replica of the bracer. So apparently cylinder quiver (carried on hip) is used for arrow, while box quiver (mounted uptight on the back) is used for crossbow bolt. Could be useful as a distinguishing feature between archer and crossbowman too. I revised my post on the first page accordingly. Update：Horse Advanced Elite Han Dynasty horse decoration basically amounts to lots and lots of tassels. Yeah. More elite horse = more tassel, I guess. Updated all my first page's posts accordingly.

Forgive my English...I mean the "left cloth" for melee unit (swordsman, spearmen, cavalry swordsman, cavalry archer) and "right cloth" for ranged unit (bowmen, crossbow, ranged cavalry). Currently swordsman and sword cavalry are using the "right cloth". @niektb Oh...I think I start to understand now. Unit that is too uniform become hard to tell apart. I will try to compare with units from manila faction(s) before I make any more suggestion.

Sry for double post. Quick question: Is there any historical basis on the thick belt-like clothing on these units (middle) ? I don't recall seeing that on the Han Dynasty terracotta, but I could be wrong though. AFAIK, the pao du (袍肚), a sarong-like tube clothing commonly depicted on Chinese warriors are only found on Sui-Tang and later Dynasties. (If it is not overly complicated to implement) Is it possible to arrange so that melee unit has "teamcolor cloth" , while ranged unit has "white cloth + teamcolor trim" ? Not sure if this is the final version of Han Xin...but that sword should be on the left hip.

@stanislas69 I mean instead of "open-top helmet + hair", there could be another variation that is "open top helmet + leather hat". Speaking of helmet, I am really looking forward to this one Another thing is that I noticed a older version of the shield still lying around the barrack building. Instead of the usual cylinder or soft bag arrow container we usually associate with quiver, Han period Chinese make it into some sort of boxy shape. The quiver is usually carried on the right hip (see below), so that the archer can draw a new arrow (with his right hand) easily. Alternately, the quiver can be carried on the back, see below: @niektb May I suggest make it into a champion unit? A sudden color change on promotion may look out of place (haven't tried it in game yet)

Also, some very rough size comparison between a small Han shield, large Han shield and a Roman Scutum. The center picture is taken from a downward angle so the shield appears a bit smaller than it really,but average ancient Chinese might be shorter than an average modern male, so I guess that even out.

Quick review on the SVN: 1) Armour with circled part is ahistorical. 2) This armour with 'detached' sleeve should be replaced with other armour. 3) Quiver should be on the right hip (common practice), or on the back (found on some Han mural). Also chech #1 of this thread on the Han quiver design. Reference Reference 2 4) (If have time) This two types of hat and helmet can be combined into a new one, for added variation. 5) Some advanced swordsman infantry are unarmoured. 6) Refer to my first post, I don't think champron are used by the Han cavalry. Note: There are champron recorded in Western Han text, we just don't know what it look like... (Note to self) Maybe I should go looking for Han period horse halters/birdles/saddle design. 7) I always thought this outfit is for champion unit? 8) Older version of the halberds are still present on some unit. 9) Seemingly all cavalry are using halberd ? No spear? 10) Spear and halberd should be roughly the same length. 11) Lack of helmet even for (some) advanced and elite cavalry unit. 12) I believe this is still WIP...but why rounded farm?

I believe it is this nomenclature thread. http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19178 Yeah, “Horse-chopping swordsman” is definitely a kickass name for a champion unit. Not sure about it translating into anti-cavalry advantage though. It is still a sword after all.

Connection at my place is very bad, so it might take some time to finish download it. Can you give me a download link of the most current build?

Sorry I never imagined it would be that much work...current one is very good already, no need to waste productivity on some dots then.

Agreed. Because Han faction is balanced, any sort of champion unit might make them too powerful in that particular department. Could champion unit be balanced with price and/or build time?

Personally I would like to suggest: Two-handed swordsmen (there are many archaeological finds of two-handed Han swords, but sadly no specific textual record of their use that I know of, so I don't know how applicable/historical is this) Spear (or sword) + crossbow hybrid heavy infantryThen again the official "Imperial Guard" unit, the Yu Lin (羽林) and Hu Ben (虎賁) of the Han Dynasty are all mounted, I think there is a WIP Hu Ben model already.

I mean the ..."dot arrangement" . Dot could be either colour. Normally it would be "one dot top, two dots side-by-side middle, two dots bottom" per plates.

Haven't been active for a while , due to real life and Lunar new year. Happy Year of the Goat/Sheep/Ibex by the way @stanislas69 Are you referring to this picture when you updat the armor? If so, nicely done! I think the texture could be clean up a bit to better match the Han lamellar style. Specifically the 'white dots' on the armor.

Then again the Roman already has the Sibylline books tech, which is a (bunch of ) books about prophecies...

Exactly.

Some other tools: Two reconstructions of the Han Dynasty wheelbarrow. Reference from Han period murals: Also shown here is a biǎn dàn (扁担) or carrying pole, on the lower left side of this brick. Animal-drawn multiple-tube seed drill reconstruction. It was called "耧" or "耧车" ("lóu" or "lóu chē") in Chinese. Crappy quality photo of shovel, hoe, and sickle blade. From Museum of the Mausoleum of the Nanyue King. Not very different from the modern version. Wooden shovel (or spade?) with iron blade. I think the reconstruction above referred this particular shovel. Excavated from Mawangdui archaeological sites. More notable here are pickaxe blades and axe-head at the left side. From 大葆台西漢墓博物館, Beijing.

A wooden shovel or spade (head reinforced with iron blade).

Can't believe I missed this one: Eastern Han farmer clothing (male), reconstructed by the same person. I think Western Han period wouldn't differ too much (But I cannot be 100% certain). EDIT: Cross-checked with Western Han period mural:

I don't think elephant should be countered by pike though. Elephants beat anything in a straight-up melee fight, period. You could still win by drowning them with numbers though. I think Alexander managed to beat elephants with his pikemen (Battle of Hydaspes), but suffered heavy losses, his phalanx was under the covering fire from his ranged unit too. Chariots are outdated and terribly bad weapon. For all intent and purpose, they act like ranged cavalry, only slower and dumber. There's nothing a chariot can do that cavalry can't do better. Still good for faction(s) without other ranged cavalry option though. Scythed chariots should have enormous charge bonus, but in prolonged melee they are dead meat.

Archer Jones' schematic. The 'light' in this schematic implying ranged/skirmishing weapon, while 'heavy' implying melee/shock weapon. So a fully armoured cataphract shooting with his bow is still classified as light cavalry. The direction of arrow means advantage, or 'counter'. The 'A' means attacking and forcing enemy to engage, while 'D' means defending. Base off this schematic, Melee Cavalry > Ranged Infantry > Melee Infantry & Ranged Cavalry Ranged Anything > Melee Infantry > Melee Cavalry Ranged Infantry > Ranged Cavalry > Melee Anything Melee Infantry & Ranged Cavalry > Melee Cavalry > Ranged Infantry

Can't say a blog post is the most reliable source though, especially since I wrote that post like two years ago. Here's a better reference: http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/shields1.htm

Also, new pattern for the shield. Color are red-on-black or black-on-red. There are also plain shield colored in (dark) red.