FeXoR
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Posts posted by FeXoR
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This wall won't work for some of the random maps. The ones with "natural" barriers like bodies of sea and cliffs (e.g. archipelago, cantabrian highlands, etc.). For those maps, some towers would suffice. Or it'd be a pain to create different shapes of walls for every random map.
I'm at it though I have to agree it's not that easy...
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Anyway, I trust Quantumstate will come up with sth nice
Agreed.
But keep in mind even if the civil soldiers have arms equipped they can die and the resources they are carrying will be lost. So returning them before fighting would be good and after fighting send them back to whatever they where doing without having to figure out what they where doing would be even better. I guess that's a part of what Quantumstate meant.
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This should be fixed now since Mythos transferred the units from internal to public. (The resource warning is still there.)
Confirmed
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Since there have been no objections I'll start editing http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Rmgen_Library
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War elephants will end up being one of the rare meat units that can attack buildings. (The Iberian Devotio cavalry with their flaming javelins are another.)
Those units might get overpowered, but we'll see. IMO both are already overpowered and if they are the only non-siege units able to attack buildings they'll get even better in comparison to other units...
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Right, we hope to alter the basic unit AI so that soldiers will not attack walls. You'll need siege weapons for that. Right now to kind of encourage this behavior I made walls bloody difficult to kill with swords and arrows, so you wouldn't want to attack them with your soldiers even though you can.
There are some units that can raze walls well like war elephants. Most heroes with hack attack only do fine as well.
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Hello, I've only recently discovered 0 AD and I've got to say, i love it! Really feels like a trip back to the games I used to love when i was younger, but in a new and awesome way. Keep up the good work!
So i've been playing the alpha 9 release and I have a few comments and suggestions for the team. Keep in mind im new here, so i might not be aware that some idea might have already been thoroughly discussed or that some feature might already be on its way
- I feel like rotating buildings could be easier. The current system is fine, but often causes problems as you cant really move the building anymore after you've been rotating it! that is, when you're done rotating the building, it gets placed right there. What if, now that I've rotated the building to the direction I want it, I notice i also wanna move it a bit? I know this isn't a major issue, but somehow it makes the game feel less ... fluid? I think it would be nice, while you're placing a building, if you could for example hold down some key (Ctrl maybe?) and use the mouse wheel to rotate the building before you need to left click to place it.
- I dont know is it just me, but i can't seem to build walls at all! All i can get is poorly aligned blocks that hardly look like a wall. still, from what I gather, a new wall system is already on its way, so great
- The ground textures are great! Sometimes they kinda look like real photographs have been used as the base for some textures, which I'm curious about. Still, some (few) textures such as mediterranean dirt B look a bit ... too white? They remind me of overexposed photographs, and they kind of break the nice look of the ground. I mean, the ground can't be that shiny!
- The water looks great. I feel like ships should have some idle animations, like for example just sligtly swinging from side to side in the moving water. But that's probably already on its way. I also think some waves on the shores would be nice! I remember back in the day how great it looked when AoM featured waves on its coasts.
- Are there to be 6 civilizations, or will you add more?
- One thing I've never liked in strategy games is just how bare the soil looks once you've chopped down trees in an area. No matter how green and lush a grass texture is, land always tends to look really bare. Same happens to your towns. Im thinking of more eye candy: shrubs and bushes, tree stumps, shoreline animals like turtles and swans, fallen trees, rocks and what not. I'm aware that this might be detrimental to the performance of the game for many players, and there might be players who dont even care for all that eye candy anyway, so maybe there could be an option to turn eye candy on/off? All those little details would help the game feel more real.
- This kind of relates to my previous point as well, but have you thought of including neutral factions? Not full fledged factions of course, but just some inhabitants of the region that aren't affiliated with any player. You wouldn't necessarily even have to be able to interact with them (not saying no to that either though), because even just being able to SEE for example a little greek temple with a couple priests going about their business or a small encampment of huts with children running around and so on would make the region feel alive. Or maybe you could have neutral markets you could trade with, or neutral inns you could capture that would grant some mercenary troops depending on the map. I just think that the maps could have features that give the illusion of these places existing even beyond your attempt to destroy your opposing players. People live here, people who have nothing to do with your armies or towns!
- Love the idea of soldier citizens. That is perhaps the single idea I love the most in the whole game. Only one thing to point out: I think the "town center", or whatever it was called, should have a "town bell" function, which would essentially signal to all female citizens in that town center's area to take cover and garrison in the nearest garrisonable building. When I get attacked and I have to organize my troops for the defence, I find myself wishing my people would have the common sense of running away instead of carrying on gathering berries while a battle rages on right next to them
- Farms! Aside from how i think farms could use with a few eye-candy props, i think farms could either have infinite food or be automatically replanted when they run out of food. What sounds the best to me is that the farm structure itself wouldn't ever actually disappear (because in reality, farms dont just disappear), but it still CAN run out of food (it becomes an "exhausted farm") and when it does, you need to task a citizen to replant it. select a citizen and right click the exhausted farm. Replanting would of course cost some wood, so I'm not talking about gratis food for the rest of the game. I just don't like how the whole farm structure disappears entirely, when the whole harvest has been collected.
- Fish could respawn every now and then. In this historical period they didn't exactly have the problem of entirely exhausting the fish supplies of a region, so I don't think it should be happening in the game either. I know that infinite resources are bad for gameplay, but food is the most basic resource, I don't think that having a way of being able to collect food for however long you want would break gameplay. It also makes no sense for a region to run out of food entirely, if a game lasts a long time.
- I liked in AoE3 the treasures you had to fight for. Like the native americans imprisoned by criminals: you'd see the criminals laughing and messing around a fire in their camp, and you could choose to attack them to free their prisoner who'd join your cause. Im not saying it has to be units, but I think this type of treasure would be neat and add some depth to early gameplay.
- I read that units on walls will probably be pushed back to 0AD part II, but what about units on ships? Will they be a part of 0AD?
- Im also thinking of the possibility of an outpost function. Your main towns are built around the "town center" buildings. I'm thinking of the possibility of constructing a "military outpost center" kind of building that would extend your control over a smaller territory than town centers do, and not allow the construction of advanced structures (such as fortresses, stone walls, and for example hellenistic gymnasiums or theatres). These outposts would be cheap and quick to build and would serve the single purpose of gathering resources in an area or controlling a key area by simply gaining military control of it, rather than starting a new town there.
- A couple things about resource collection, it would be cool if the animation for carrying a huge block of stone would be different than the one for carrying wood. I noticed a bunch of workers carrying HUGE blocks of stone with two arms and i did not get the feeling those blocks were heavy at all. Carrying the blocks on their back and wobbling a bit under its weight while walking would look neat and certainly give you the feeling that these people really are working hard for you
- Siege units could have a couple humans a part of the unit. I'm talking of a purely visual matter now, I've never been able to work with magical wooden machines that move by themselves in the middle of the wilderness
- This might go a bit overboard in terms of how hard it might be to implement over the actual value of the idea, bu have you thought of a day/night cycle? It would certainly be very cool, but I do wonder even myself would it just look bad, suddenly making building construction times look really bad (waiting 60 seconds for a house to be ready isn't bad, but when you can actually see that those 60 seconds equalled to less than an hour in the day/night cycle, it might suddenly look bad, i dont know).
There! I know that's a huge list of suggestions, I hope no one will be shocked by it. I also want to say that these are all suggestions for DETAILS, and that the game overall is absolutely great!
- Rotating buildings in-game: Fixed. After selecting a bunch of units that can build and clicked a build button the building is attached to the cursor. When holding down the left mouse button the buildings location is fixed and and it can be rotated with the mouse. If you right-click in any part of this action the placement is canceled.
- Wall placement: It's on it's way:
- Textures: Yes, I think some textures are not fitting well. Don't know what the art department thinks about that though. BTW: Real ground/stones can be quite shiny white:
http://mkeamy.typepa...6327c970c-800wi
http://www.ithakabou...Cliff-Beach.jpg
http://images.volcan...milos_g6685.jpg
http://static.design...fs-of-dover.jpg
http://images.world6..._do_galleryfull
- Water shore wave animation/Ship idle animation: AFAIK both in discussion (not sure though)
- Civilizations: AFAIK 6 civilizations are planed for 0AD Part 1, those already in the game. For part 2 others are planned.
- Waste land: There are many stuff available for decoration. The usage depends mainly on the designer map designer. Feel free to design maps with tons of decorative stuff
- Neutral faction: There is one: Gaia. She attacks everyone else (wild animals are an example). If you start a scenario with a player unassigned all it's units/structures are given to her and they'll attack everyone coming near. I don't know how far and when an AI is in discussion for her.
- Town bell: Hot discussions about this are burning here.
- Farms: Auto rebuild is in discussion. No idea concerning the model. Further info in the next post by wraitii.
- Fish: See the next post by wraitii.
- Treasures: Treasure are available too. The units as treasure are not planed as far as I know but 'capturing'/converting units and/or buildings is planned AFAIK.
- Outposts: There are some buildings that can be placed anywhere on the map (not on cliffs/water ofc.). The outpost/watchtower (mainly to get visual on the surroundings) and the roman army camp for defensive/siege purpose. Further info in the next post by wraitii.
- Carrying stone: Visuals, visuals, visuals... I don't get it. Well, I'd say the artists/animators are heavily on it doing a great job. Adding different animations for everything is time consuming. But if you can inspire them...
- Siege units: I totally agree. Don't know if it's planned though.
- Day/night cycle: If it's to fast it's annoying, if it's to slow it's a bit unreal as you said. I don't think it's worth it.
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You need everything that you have and you also need to make sure that fbotAI inherits from baseAI. Here is the relevant qBot section.
function QBotAI(settings) {
BaseAI.call(this, settings);
...
}
QBotAI.prototype = new BaseAI();Your other question is quite a big one, I will try and answer it later, I don't have time right now.
Thx already! Though I don't know what "settings" is for right now but it works without errors. It seams that communication without importing the API is not that easy (because I already need it to avoid the error).
I will read more code to get used to the common-api-v2 and look forward to some explanation of yours. Do I get it right that in the AI API rotation is again like in the engine but height isn't really needed? ^^
However, I look forward for some explanation and thx for your patience with me.
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I like the drag-and-drop wall system but it makes me wonder: those 'towers' between the walls ought to have their attack removed. Maybe make them upgradeable (like in BFME 1 & 2)?
Also: I hope that walls will be expensive and will take a while to build, unlike in the age of series, where it was easier and faster to build a new wall than to repair your damaged walls...
When stone walls take a while to build, it will give palissades a lot more of importance, even in later phases of a game.
I don't think a wall without any attack has much of a worth in game. It might not be realistic but the costs of a wall should be low to match the actual advantage in game.
The time to build a structure and the time to repair a structure should indeed be the same I think. In fact it should depend on the materials needed to build an entity IMO so the build time would be something like (0.7*foodCost + 0.9*woodCost + 1.2*stoneCost + 1.5*mettalCost)/2 seconds. Same with the maximum hitpoints (structural points/life). It could be something like (1.3*foodCost + 0.7*woodCost + 1.5*stoneCost + 0.5*metalCost)/2. Same with the armor. It could be (0.1*foodCost + 0.5*woodCost + 0.9*stoneCost + 1.9*metalCost)/10 and distributed with another function as seen fit for this unit type. This would allow to balance things easily but I think I run into great opposition with that...
In this case palisades would indeed be build faster.
However, the advantage of walls in the age series didn't match the worth. I never build one because a fortress had a much better price/effect ratio and stone was the most limited resource (at least in AoE II - AoK/AoQ).
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What do I need to write a new AI from scratch?
I have:
data.json
{
"name": "FeXoR Bot",
"description": "A simple AI by FeXoR.",
"constructor": "fbotAI"
}fbot.js
function fbotAI()
{
}When starting a game in Atlas it claims:
"ERROR: AI script Serialize call failed"
"ERROR: AI script Deserialize call failed"
It's the same when I add:
_init.js
Engine.IncludeModule("common-api-v2");So what do I need in addition to avoid errors?
In addition I would like to know how the connection to the engine works.
It would be nice if someone would explain it to me first without any API usage (so just what the engine does) and then how the common-api-v2 achieves communication with the engine.
I know this is very basic and so might not be that easy to explain but I'm not very good at reading and understanding code especially when something appears like "Engine.xyz" and "Engine" is not defined in the API, sorry for that
Thx in advance
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The problem with walls is actually two-folds: walls that pre-exist must be "discovered", I'm thinking of the Iberians now in scenarios... In that case, the AI must learn there are walls.
Doesn't the AI get all entities it owns at the start including all it's props (like position, placement angle etc.)?
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I have a professional microphone but that has to be amplified before plugging into a PC. I only got a guitar amplifier and the frequencies to adjust doesn't fit voice frequencies. I bought an amplifier construction kit that was really cheap (~15 $/12 €) but has very good stats (indeed the price of a ready to use amplifier greatly depends on the casing and its style, not the electronics). A microphone of cause is not that cheep (Shure offers decent microphones for 100 € /130 $ for example). The according environment is an other issue.
Since I don't think my English pronunciation wouldn't pass any kind of quality test I'm out for English tutorials
...but later in game development I could do the German ones. -
which comes back to my second point: being aware of the wall is harder than actually building it
You could do that with an abstract alignment saved in the AI. I did something similar to this in the rmgen wall_builder lib in getWallAlignment. In my case I needed it to determine the center (center of mass) of a given fortress to place it right. It simply does the same as a place function would do but instead of placing each wall element it puts everything needed for placement into a data structure and returns it. If you'd save such an alignment you could check if a part of the wall is missing and rebuild it correctly. Of cause the AI API have to support rotation for building placement...
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I didn't fix the no resources warning. I left that because it needs fixing properly, currently running out a resource type will cause the queues to start getting blocked and the AI won't play well.
I still can't get that Sicilia error, I just tried on a clean svn. Can you get the whole of interestinglog.html and see if there are any other errors? Also if you could put warn(uneval(type)); in gamestate.js at line 41 that would be helpful I think.
Added the additional warning and it's indeed the problem:
Still in atlas there are no warnings but no unit is moved by qbot and he don't seam to produce anything as well.
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Can you test this again. I can't reproduce it, I think my recent changes have fixed it.
I did with SVN revision 11547.
Still the no resource warnings tested on new_rms_test (game and atlas):
...and the Sicilia errors:
In Atlas the Sicilia scenario seams to run fine though.
There where no custom content accessible to the game while I tested and both where tested with default settings (but reveal map and small size for new_rms_test).
I have Alpha 9 installed as well but I don't think it interacts with the SVN version and I made sure I user the SVN version ofc
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What a button like this should do really depends on many other things suggested here. I like this idea:
I think a "Call to Arm" button should work like the militia button in Warcraft 3, except that it'll work on every citizen soldiers on-screen that were gathering. The player can use it in conjunction with the town bell button to get every female citizen to garrison inside buildings for better defense against raids.
...but only for citizen soldiers actually gathering. The radius that would make sense however is harder to determine. I should include all gathering citizen soldiers nearer to the civil center the button was clicked than to any other gathering building able to garrison. When they have returned there resources they carried they should guard the civil center in a current distance depending on the number of units reacting to the alarm so other units can still pass through them but they are still tight enough packed to have decent fighting efficiency. Non-attack citizens should garrison in the nearest building that can be garrisoned and has an attack at the same time so you don't need to click 2 buttons.
Some things might collide/contradict with this behavior though like stances since citizen soldiers when returning to secure there carried resources might break the command when attacked. I already said in other topics that this is a very bad idea in general but it might be OK if an order priority system is implemented.
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While were at it there's another issue. I don't think I need to add another topic for it though.
If there's no stone left on the map QBot or the common-api-v2 warns that no stone is found on the map. Since that is not unnatural to appear I think a bot should be able to deal with that even if there's no stone or other resource present at the beginning.
Another thing is that QBot spams warnings on the scenario sicilia: http://fexor.dyndns....a_walrnings.jpg
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I want to add the wall_builder.js rmgen lib documentation to the wiki.
While reading it again I found some things that could be improved but I don't want to change things before others agree especially the original authors.
I think that are mainly Spahbod and historic_bruno is that right?
Map Coordinate System
I think it would be better to tell it uses 2D placement (x/y plane including the default rotation) and the third coordinate is set automatically (cannot be set). When given to the game engine it is converted to 3D with the x/z plane (with opposite rotation) as the map's surface. The later thing doesn't matter to random map scripting at all but is just an information for rmgen script designers that may also work on the game engine with different conventions for example.
Placing terrain and units
Before explaining area placement and unit group placement it would be good to note that there are simple placement methods for terrain and units (setTexture and placeObject).
There might be other things but I think I'll ask before I change things.
When I add the wall_builder.js documentation I'll put it after the unit group placement description I think.
Any thoughts about that?
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I need someone with some time on their hands and who has an up-to-date SVN copy of the game top help out with some map design stuff. It might be tedious or it might not be. Point is though you help add something to the game.
Basically, we might be giving the Iberians an interesting bonus: Essentially, the Iberians would start every match with a prefab circuit of walls as one of their civ bonuses. So, what I need is someone to go through the maps in SVN and add a circuit of walls around the Iberian starting point. I have already done about 3 different maps, but there are a bunch more. All you'd have to do is look at the maps I've already done and do all the other maps where applicable (for the Iberians only). The circuits should be organic looking, not a big square or circle. Just approximate what I've already done on the other maps.Anyone up for the challenge? Could let multiple people claim different maps.
Attached are a few examples of that I'm talking about to make things clearer.
If the starting walls are a civ bonus then all the random maps would need that to to be consistent.
I could add the walls to the default starting entity placement function createStartingPlayerEntities for iberians if that is wanted.
I think some other changes like cut some trees around the start locations would be needed then too though.
BTW Mythos_Ruler, I send you a map in a PM that had this functionality. Guess it's outdated now though.
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That page basically says Atlas doesn't have proper mod support yet (which is true), what it doesn't say is that releases often store data in an unwritable location (like a .zip archive or outside the user's home directory). There are technical reasons why it fails and why the files end up in cache instead, it has to do with the inner workings of the VFS. The cache is actually intended for files that are loaded from other sources (like textures from PNGs), they get converted and stored in cache to reduce load time on the next use. The cache will never ever be officially intended for doing what you're doing, it's a temporary hack because of some missing VFS functionality and mod support
This changed according to the discussion we had here. Cache should go in local app data instead of roaming, which is a useful distinction for users on domains. It's pretty standard behavior for modern Windows apps. See the link for details.
#1145 was only intended to shuffle existing data paths, not fix the broken VFS
However the description in the ticket is slightly outdated, as the comments explain, the original planned locations were changed due to feedback from others. I just forgot to update the description for Windows.Fixing mod support in Atlas and generally is a problem for another ticket (#889 is somewhat of a placeholder for that).
Understand the VFS as a means to translate a game path like maps/scenarios to a real system path on your computer. Actually there can be multiple real paths per a single VFS path, such as if you have multiple mods installed. Now for reading files that is OK, you can have different priorities and pick the file from the mod with highest priority. But for writing files, as Atlas does, there should only be a single real path which is known to be writable. The VFS lacks that currently, but in the future we will have a single "user mod" directory in a standard location, and Atlas will always save maps there.
I'm not sure why hotloading of random maps is broken for SVN versions, I think it's a separate issue from the above.
Thx much for explaining
I think those issues should be fixed soon. I already send a false patch to be reviewed because I couldn't see the false behavior in Atlas. I will try to remember to restart Atlas ofc. but it's not my work practice to close and reopen programs over and over again. At least it's an annoyance. Since i had problems with broken patches too I think I will work as follows:
- Modify files in cache (if possible for all my desired changes) to be able to see the results in Atlas without reopening it until I'm done.
- SVN update
- Copy modified files to the SVN tree
- Rename cache folder
- Test
- Generate patch
- Revert SVN and delete all added files
- Apply patch to see if everything works fine
- Test
- Send patch to be reviewed
Will that likely lead to problems or will it work fine (until the real custom content folders are implemented ofc.)?
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That's not really a custom content path, it's the cache path. I suspect when you modify those files you're working around a bug in the hotloading system (I don't know which bug or why what you're doing is working).
What you are saying is similar to what Philip said in Ticket #631 and your previous answer agreeing with Ykkrosh in this post.
Atlas Tricks (Page seams a little hidden for me) says %appdata%\0ad\cache\mods\public\maps\scenarios would be the default directory for saving maps in Atlas but it changed to %localappdata% as I stated in this post. The above is true for Alpha 9 (not sure about %localappdata% or %appdata%) but for the SVN version the default save path is \binaries\data\mods\public\map\scenarios in the SVN directory. Atlas and the game itself search for files in %localappdata% as well though (SVN version).
Ticket #1145 sais it would be fixed but I cannot find out where in My Documents the files have to be placed (and so doubt that it works at all). It provides a link to this list and some other useful related stuff.
Now I'm quite confused and don't understand:
- Why you say %appdata%/0ad\cache\mods\public\maps is not the custom map folder though it behaves exactly like I would think a custom map folder would?
- Why was it changed from %localappdata% to %appdata% (indicating it can be changed) but not to My Documents/0ad/maps as suggest in this list?
- In witch way the virtual file system is broken and how you 'lost control' of the paths like said in this post?
- Why is Ticket #1145 set to fixed though it doesn't appear to be fixed?
BTW: It works for AI as well: %appdata%\0ad\cache\mods\public\simulation\ai
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Random maps are loaded from different paths in Atlas and the game itself.
- The sub path '\binaries\data\mods\public\maps\random' in the svn directory
- The custom content path '%localappdata%/0ad\cache\mods\public\maps\random' (for windows I'm working on)
If I have atlas opened and edit a file in the custom map folder and then generate the map (again) the changes are applied.
If I do the same in the svn path the changes are NOT applied. In some cases it raises an javascript error stating a syntax error in the last line of the file (no matter if something near the last line was modified). Atlas needs to be reloaded to see the changes.That should be the same for the game itself I think.
I don't know if this is a known issue or how it works with Alpha 9.
I'm using Vista (longhorn, home premium), tortoiseSVN and the current SVN version.
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Seasons: I never really cared to have such a feature, but some people really want this, so we'll probably try to make it happen in Part 2.
Weather: Not all weather, we might try to come up with some rain and snow for Part 1, but that's a low priority "If Time Permits" kind of thing, or if someone had the gumption to throw it in on a whim, which stranger things have happened.
Naval Stuff: Perhaps boarding and capturing of ships. Garrisoned troops standing on deck and fighting from the top deck.
Walls: Scaling walls. Troops standing on top of walls and fighting from the walls. Things like that.
Triggers and Narrative Campaigns: We're pretty much 95% sure we'll go with some kind of Strategic Campaign (like Rome:Total War or Battle for Middle Earth 2's "War of the Ring") for single-player in Part 1. Narrative campaigns (those that use triggers to tell a story line) will have to wait for Part 2. This is the one I think that upsets people the most, but I think we can do some cool stuff with Strategic Campaigns that people will like and will make up for it.
I have nothing against any of the features and think they all are 'nice to have' and for most people they might have a well higher priority.
For me the priority of them is not that high because they mainly effect the look of the game an (for me) less the feel of the game.
I'm more concerned about easy to add existing custom content as I think it makes a game growing far beyond it's release quality (mainly variety) after it's published.
For me that includes:
- Scenarios: Implemented ok already. Custom map folder should be somewhere like 'my documents/my games/0ad/maps/scenarios'
- Skirmish maps: see skirmish concept. Not implemented yet
- Random maps: Implemented ok already, Custom map folder should be somewhere like 'my documents/my games/0ad/maps/random'
- Triggers: Not planned before 0ad2 AFAIK. I still think they are important because they can have a big impact on how the game feels.
- Entities: I'm not well into this...
- Civilizations: As far as I know you have to change a lot of files to add further civilizations so far. Adding different civs from different designers/programmers is only possible by fusing code manually AFAIK. So for the average guy it seams not possible to add custom civilizations at all.
- Player AIs: I don't know if there is a folder for custom AIs but anyway it's not that hard to add a custom AI. I think there should be a separated folder for that.
And how easy it is to generate custom content ofc. But I don't think that is such a big problem since it's an open source game and should attract a community more into coding.
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Perhaps a tutorial video might be a mix. You don't have to read and everything is explained but since no in-game triggers are implemented yet it's much easier to provide.
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Wall build tool for RMGs
in Scenario Design/Map making
Posted
Testmap for Spahbod: fortress_test.zip