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I'm glad gracian understood my point. Others too got the "general idea" behind proposal. And I also get iNcog's view (better put effort on coding more complex interesting aspects, rather than slight changes). Beyond my suggestion for Map food resources (+replenish rate over time), farms vs corrals macro gathering competence... There are LOTS of more important issues to re-view in 0AD. Many balance aspects are uneven between civilizations making some more preferrible than others, tech-tree is still under testing!, etc. Yes I'm thankful with the existence of the project and people/council behind it. I'm Not thankful with the direction the core designers took (traditional over-seen mechanics rather than breaking the mold). And who is in charge of the basic concepts of the game? It's not clear really (e.g. tech-tree not defined). Is there a story to follow of this project? Somewhere I read the original leaders of project abandoned it after discussions. I'm always interested in past internal conflicts.

Nice play incog... at first I thought Valar would make a fast push (after quick hunting his elephants)... but he sit on his side and lost the advantage gained (more soldiers than you at that moment of game). At middle point I realized Valar wasn't going to give you a challenge at all... specially when he set click to attack 1 of your cavalry and you just make them turn around your skirmishers who killed all his infantry (that was truly embarassing). Completed out-microed and out-macroed as you set forward CC... easy win for you. I saw from your channel some previous alphas games (A16 mostly) where you do 1v1 vs several guys... I do agree A16 was really behind in balance terms. Still a long road to walk... I'm a bit sad about it since I like 0 ad... looks like AoE 3 should have been.

@iNcog: Sorry I put words in your mouth. @ProdigalSon: My first post sums up my position for a Farm that keeps the macro, but farmers auto-seed (rebuild for free) after taking X low amount of food (300). The goal is to have a less cheesy food method... and my 2nd proposal was making Corrals more "macro", less "micro" (auto-sheep training in time gaps, up to max 4 per Corral) Doesn't sound legit to compete with farming in Macro vs Macro main food resource? @zzippy: I know the 10 corrals in 1 Control Group, would take 2 seconds... but each how many seconds? (1 time you screw the routine and you got to reorganize it) Besides, is it worth having tons of food this way (manually training sheeps) when you actually have with current farm system the same amazing amount? This method described by zzippy, reminds me of Tzar: Burden of the Crown tendency to make few farms on beginning and then switch to 100% cattle farms, cows spam (for milk and meat). If you have played Tzar, you know what I'm talking about. @Everyone: Sorry about my aggresivity. I'm very angry sometimes.

Corrals are not efficient as they need Manual handling, while Farms are Automatic... A player will not be moving his farmers into corrals in lategame. He will be focused in the fighting and expansion which takes LOTS of attention. So you think is wise to move into Corrals? Noone would ever do that. It's adding another manual action to your attention... training sheeps manually. IF you think Corrals are worth in the current state... I have no more words for you. Feels like talking to people who just talks from the "theory" and has never seen the "practise" of such statements. Jeez... Whatever.

Yes I did. We are actually in the same side. If it's possible to make food gathering different to general RTS, then proposing is nice. However we should consider developers intentions to "change anything at all". What I refer now... is that even if your or my or the other guy idea is interesting... our suggestions will stay in "nothing" if developers do not consider making food different to other RTS (extremely low priority for them)... So it's like being waiting maybe 2-3 years, and see nothing changed. Is it worth making a unique 0 AD food gathering? Yes. Is it necessary for today? Not really. So yeah... We will have the cheap extensive farmlands (usually 15-20) and no Corrals for the time being till Alpha +30... Age of Mythology has the same Farms that you pay initial cost (70 for most, 200 atlantean), and last forever (infinite gathering). There is no-rebuilding (which in Age of Empires 2, makes you pay same Wood cost: 60) I was thinking in my original suggestion that farms are only paid in the beginning... and need rebuilding, but this is automatically and doesn't take wood (which makes difference with AoE) The only way this works.. is that instead of giving lots of foods per charge, it gives very little -> 200 or 300, and then rebuilding time is of 100 or 150 secs. Sounds crazy, but is unique and works in the same way would work in real life. Farmers will be seeding lots of times, part of the real life with the different seasons/rotative cultives. You can build extensive farming again... but the idea is to compete against the extensive corrals choice (which generates sheeps between time gaps-> I explained my system idea) The current Corrals are not attractive at all, compared to the Farm system... so reworking Corrals in order to have that automatic sheep breeding, is what makes both main food branches balanced. I hope I didn't extend much about this issue... In a personal taste, I referred to food resources coming within MAP generation, to have replenish rates: berries, apples grow with time, and shoals of fishes reproduce as well (could also be applied to hunting, so if abusing this method, all animals are killed without leting them reproduce, etc) It's all just a innovative game "food system". If developers prefer to focus in other issues... I don't blame them. I perfectly understand.

I know every "just words idea" is an amount of work for a developer. The only way to get this approved by them is that is attractive enough... AND, I also mentioned that I'm ignorant respect their original master plan. Even so, I'd suggest something to make 0 AD more unique. But yes... Everything is coding as long as we are in ALPHA. If an idea is satisfactory attractive, why not trying it and get 1 step ahead of traditional RTS? Practically all reknown RTS, have berries that deplete in time, and all urban plannings look like "FarmLand" in lategame. 0 AD can distinguish in much more other ways than simply technical section or history accuracy. What about the ingame mechanics to obtain food? One of the things to make FARMS not such an obligation is having these alternative food resources viable along with it. Do you choose Main Food between extensive farming or many corral sheeps? Each civilization may have bonus that favour slightly 1 or other route. Farms and Corrals will tend to compete each other in Mechanics... so the Corrals sheep/time gap should be accurate as to have max 4 working per Corral. Wood/Metal/Stone: You already have to micro them, specially woodcutters to move them into virgin forests or build forward drop sites closer to the "working area". I also think it could work, making everything in game with a fixed regeneration/replenish rate (if you achieve coding one, the rest is easier I suppose). After all my suggestion for Corrals is exactly that but in blocks of sheeps 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 In current game, you get the classic AoM (mythology) set. Also to consider... the realistic world 0 AD wants to recreate. Abusing 1 food source and move into next one is very classical system... now distributing your gatherers in order to be as efficient as possible is something new. iNcog is right that in the end... is just another way to get the same... food gathering. My answer is that is not the end, but the how, what gives identity to a game.

Be nicer please zzippy. First of all, I do detect your childish "sarcasm"... pretty obvious. Second, he has done great changes to A16, reading descriptions... he took the job to DO something, and yes it's "better" now in A17. But there is so much to arrange that he has overlooked some aspects. We are humans after all. In a positive comment towards the add-ons to A17, I praise the special wonder technology +50 pop cap because redefines its purpose in standard games (not wonder victory). I'm always building wonders now in A17 lobby games, and NEVER ever saw any other player consider this (not even the top 10 guys from ranking). Okay... unpolite mode OFF. Now let's talk seriously, shall we? I like this game being historically accurate, but I'd like it more if has more interesting features like the special wonder tech. Well, not everything has to be tech-innovating, but we can do something regarding Food branches in order to have multiple ways to gather this vital resource. When I think something, I like to make it symmetric... so Farming main antagonist is Breeding (sheeps). Take note these values are just to give an overall idea of the "FOOD rework" I have in mind. Numeric values are always open to discussion (specially when testing). FARM (1 to 4 gatherers) Build time: 150 Wood cost: 150 Food amount: 300 (basic, can get +75 and +75 with new granary techs) The idea is to have farms depleted fast, and then farmers re-seed it for free. You only pay 150 wood in the beginning. So it wil be working in cycles... seed-recollect-seed-recollect -> the more farmers (max 4) faster the process. RANCH (sheeps) Process: After building 1 Ranch, sheeps come out 1 by 1 with time gaps till reaching a max of 4 sheeps x Ranch. These sheeps come out and stay in front of the building choosen direction... waiting to be slaughtered by your citizens or horse skirmishers. Ranch itself is a food deposit (like granary), and has its own economic techs (faster sheep breeding or +food per sheep). Build time: 100 Wood cost: 200 Food amount: 100 by sheep (basic, can get +25, and +25) Sheep auto-breed: 1 quick after Ranch is finished, then each 50 secs (basic, can get -10 secs, and -10 secs) Starting from a basic [100 food x sheep each 50 secs] it can be upgraded to end having in the Urban 3rd phase -> [150 food x sheep each 30 secs] ---------------------- I have other ideas in mind for food resources that in general deplete and we don't see them again. They all got a Regeneration value, meaning they can replenish their food, always at same rate. The issue here is to micro your gatherers... let's say you collect OK a bush with 5 gatherers, BUT while you get recollection or capacity techs, those 5 gatherers will start consuming the bush faster than its regeneration rate. If you overlook this and bush reaches 0 HP, then you lose that food resource... and your gatherers may start a chain effect, going to neighbour's bushes with "ideal amount of gatherers" and that way screw that FREE food resource. If you pay attention in time to micro your fruits gatherers, you don't lose the resource AND you liberate at least 2 gatherers to give them other activities (you still take same food rate but with now 3 citizens instead of 5, due the continues tech researchs that improve their performance). Bushes 200 hp Apple tree 400 hp Fish shoal 1000 hp Whale shoal 2000 hp So yes, I intend that "regeneration value" is also applied in water resources, tough obviously each shoal will be able to hold more fisher boats (than the land counter-parts). These resources regenerate... but can be totally depleted if you misscalculate/neglect that new techs boost your gatherers capacities. --------------------- It's much to read, but you wanted some opinion and less complaining. I hope some suggestion could make it into the next alphas.

I know my "post tone" wasn't polite. It was intentional to bump the topic. Now I see who is alive/active. Good answers. I surely respect those who have been day after day working on this game... I even commented 0 AD is growing in technical aspects... but overall Balance left much to desire. I haven't played Alpha 16 (from what I read here, it's a even more discouraging), but I played Alpha 17 and mastered it in 1 week (played all civs, tried all land possible tactics, performed best timing persian chariot rush, etc). Let's say I tested it on my way, because lobby players were really under my power (No fun with less skilled people). So I noticed many issues that can be improved, some are mathematical (elements values), other are systemic (better variety for food gathering branches). You want some constructive idea... that's easy to do. The main issue is... since idea is coming from ME... I repeat ME , I don't want to be argued with statements such as "oh you want to impose your arrogant views". I want my any ideas to be considered objectively, not subjectively. It's NOT about ME, it's about the abstract ideas that could make a positive difference to the 0 AD game. Just a little warm up -> FARMS in 0 AD. The current system is equal to Age of Mythology. You pay initial resources, and gives you infinite food. If the intention is to look similar to any of the widely known RTS, then no suggestion I make will surt effect. That's why talking of changing for the best some core mechanic, while being ignorant of game designers crew real wishes, ends discouraging me. Let's say now you are open to new ideas (possibilty of re-coding for a new farming system), of course after approval of people with authority regarding ingame mechanics. I will explain further my suggestion. Next post.

Thanks! I knew my ears were right!

We face 3 big branch problems, regarding game's structure. I wrote them in importance order. 1) Code inefficieny: Serious LAG when many objects/orders ingame that makes +4 players matches unplayable -> most common complaint from lobby/ingame chatting. 2) Ingame mechanics: Main aspects of game. We could point these issues: Auto-Aim with ranged cavalry (only available for AI Petra), and Farming system (new idea needed). 3) Bad balance: Numeric relationship between elements (an element is a unit, a house, a technology, etc.. every single thing with a portrait/icon is an ingame element). I have many ideas, but 1 thing that discourages me... is not knowing how is composed the developer/testing crew. ->Developers: Which skilled active players you take notes from? Who are the main testers that adresses what is good/wrong with (2) and (3)? Sometimes, a single high skilled competitive player that takes notes from everyone, is better than a bunch of disoriented opinions here (which many topics give the impression). It's like you read balance topics... and everyone wants to impose his point of view. Most of their POV's are really good I admit, but very variated which could lead to dozens of 0 AD prototypes (mods). So what 0 AD Development Crew is lacking referring my points (2) and (3), is a person with Leadership (open-minded and able to handle bunch of opinions) and Experience (knowledge coming from long life true competitive gaming). It could be a duo or trio of these sort of persons, but no more... No real need of more. SO yeah, I'm questioning the organization of the crew... because I see in Alpha 17... A17! that there are still very basic balance mistakes that should have been noticed and fixed right immediatly by a simple keen tester. If these "balance flaws" have passed unseen to these days... I doubt about the reception my constructive critics will receive. It's like... hmm... IF i suggest a good solution to something... What answer can I expect from the "balance responsible", that gave and still retains ridiculously high costs to useless technologies? It has discouraged me to read about "scythe's surprise balance" in another thread. Is that the way the general game's BALANCE is handled in this promising game? I don't know how good player scythe is... because from my past experiences in other games forums... the strongest player has the strongest perspective. Feels like 0 AD mostly grows in technical aspects, but cannot reach an holistic equilibrium because lacks of persons with wide balance perspective (which believe me, is not a minor Ability). Sorry if anyone gets touched with my words, specially scythe. PS: Why I wrote this here? Because I understood what [Main Poster] Organix meant beyond his game suggestions... The metacritic of his post targets the testing (if any?) crew.

Hello. First of all... I want to say I love this game. One of the things that has captured my attention is the Menu epic soundtrack. I have tried to find that theme on internet... there is one version of Honor Bound but seems to be old/outdated... My ears can tell that the theme in current SVN Alpha 17, "Honor Bound" sounds better. Is there a way to get this alter Honor Bound? (seems rearranged to me)