Friedrich123

I personally think that the problem we are talking about is rooted deeper than just champion cavalry: cavalry units in general. More specifically their mobility paired with their higher popefficiency Lets ignore their mobility for a second and just look at the raw stats compared to infantry. Take citizen javelineers as an example: 50 food cost more for a unit that has: 110hp vs 50 3, 1, 15 vs 1, 1, 10 resistance 18 vs 16 dmg Now granted you need a separate building (which costs funnily 50 stone (or wood depending on civ) less than a barrack) to train them and you need to click 2 upgrades. But still, in TGs going lategame youd be actually throwing the game if you wouldnt build cavalry from minute 16 on onwards. The 12.5% damage alone justifies its cost in scenarios where food and wood isnt a limiting factor Now lets state the obvious: Cavalry is faster than infantry 17.82 vs 11.4 speed, if we use the above example And this is not a problem per se. It is the lack of obstructions that limit that mobility. It already got mentioned briefly in this thread by breakfastbourrito_007. I do agree with most of his ideas. What i would like to add though: pallisades should be build quicker and easier placable, I am not entirely sure about the cost too. Why is that even relevant? If only one side cavalry in a game, the side with cavalry is far more likely to win. Not only due to the discussed popefficiency above, but due to mapcontrol. Let me elaborate: When players attack they usually dont attack with all their units. They anticipate having to rebuild lost troops and as you need at least some eco for that, they have their 40-50 women on food and another 15-20 citizen soldiers on wood. Well these are prime raiding targets for an oponent with 10-15 citizen cavalry to attack. Or he will just take your barracks while you are away with the main force of your troops. Or hell catch some stragglers or the units you reproduced on their way. but most likely he will raid your eco with it. His is untouched. As long as he doesnt decisively loses the fight or in a teamgame has another player to aliviate for his disadvantage (which is unlikely, since he has more popefficient units and defenders advantage), he will just be able to outproduce his opponent. Now this raiding gets especially rough when he sends in like 5 champs or even better 5 champs+cav hero. Well @#$%. if you leave your base you will most likely be outproduced and lose the game. Walling is in 95% of the cases not an options or doesnt work, due to walls/palisades are. Building towers or defensive structures? They cant kill anything. Ok so what is your realistic option? If you cant beat them, join them: Build cavalry yourself. Now that also puts you at a disadvantage: You need to build buildings, click technologies, switch up your eco, losing the initiative and completely lose map control. And when your enemy decides to take the initiative and attack with 30 champion cavalry while the tech to unlock them for you just went through, youll lose the fight. Now of course this scenario is a bit stylized. But I played and witnessed many games where that happened: You have no cav? you are doomed to sit in your base. One thing I would like to add is that building cavalry usually takes a bit of more time than just booming. So there is a small sweetspot around minute 13-14 where an all out infantry attack with is possible and has good chances. But especially in TGs where people tend to play more defensively that rarely happens and after minute 15 that opportunity has passed. Having 50-60 FU champs by minute 16 is possible and well then the game is over if no enemy did that. Now not to dwell about my hatred for cavalry entirely, i do like cavalry in one scenario: early/mid game rushes Cavalry being an above average unit is necessary if you try to rush someone. You not focussing on eco and having to disrupt your enemies eco at least to the same amount with your units is a risk. But it can pay off, if you execute it correctly. And if you build the right units. Dont get me wrong, I think you can absolutely rush someone with normal units like archers. But it is far riskier, because they either dont have the mobility or/and arent strong enough to win against an enemy with equal numbers. Such as cavalry or naked fanatics. But the factors that make these rushes possible are exactly the same ones that make cavalry just so opressive in the late game. So I myself I am not so sure how to fix that issue. cavalry costing more pop would be one solution, but I dont think its an be all-end all fix. In conclusion: In my opinion most of the issues people and myself have with champion cavalry are just extremes of other (in my eyes) unbalanced and problematic issues. Raiding should be a valid strat, you should be able to express your skill with the micro of fast units, etc. But you should to be able to defend just as good against it, which is sadly at the moment not the case

thanks for the fast reply and the list of course. Sadly my c++ isnt very good, but ill look into it maybe

Hello, So I wanted to make an own mod for 0ad, focussing on balancing and palying around with some ideas. I ran into a problem trying to modify the "UnitMotion/Acceleration" of a unit using the { "value": "UnitMotion/Acceleration", "multiply": 1.25 } in a technology I added, as it didnt change the value of the unit. But the same tech was possible to modify the UnitMotion/WalkSpeed and Attack/Ranged/PrepareTime. So I wonder if there are values that cant be changed with the "modifications" tool or if I just made a mistake. { "genericName": "Steppe Tactics", "description": "High manouverability and more practical bows are essential for cavalry archer combat.", "cost": {"food": 150,"wood": 200,"metal": 200}, "requirements": { "tech": "phase_town" }, "requirementsTooltip": "Unlocked in Town Phase.", "icon": "recurved_bow.png", "researchTime": 10, "autoResearch": false, "tooltip": "Cavalry archer acceleration +25% and -30% prepare time.", "modifications": [ { "value": "UnitMotion/Acceleration", "multiply": 1.25 }, { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.2 }, { "value": "Attack/Ranged/PrepareTime", "multiply": 0.70 } ], "affects": ["Cavalry Archer"], "soundComplete": "interface/alarm/alarm_upgradearmory.xml" } Another thing I had a problem with is the buildingai. I wanted to make chariots shoot while moving, so I applied the same method used in the siege tower and just set the base arrows to 1. Now the problem is: The modified chariots cant capture buildings, as they have the building flag. Is there another way to implement the same change? I either thought about making an exception for chariots blocking the buildingai or making a bypass at the flag that disallows dealing dmg and moving, although I dont know where Id find that. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> <Entity parent="template_unit_champion_cavalry_archer"> <Attack> <Ranged> <AttackName>Bow</AttackName> <Damage> <Pierce op="add">-5</Pierce> </Damage> <MaxRange op="add">-10</MaxRange> <PrepareTime>800</PrepareTime> <RepeatTime op="add">250</RepeatTime> <PreferredClasses datatype="tokens">Human</PreferredClasses> </Ranged> </Attack> <BuildingAI> <DefaultArrowCount>1</DefaultArrowCount> <GarrisonArrowMultiplier>1</GarrisonArrowMultiplier> <MaxArrowCount>10</MaxArrowCount> <GarrisonArrowClasses>Infantry</GarrisonArrowClasses> </BuildingAI> <Footprint replace=""> <Square width="8.0" depth="11.0"/> <Height>6.0</Height> </Footprint> <Identity> <Civ>maur</Civ> <GenericName>War Chariot</GenericName> <SpecificName>Rath</SpecificName> <SelectionGroupName>units/maur/champion_chariot</SelectionGroupName> <VisibleClasses datatype="tokens">Chariot</VisibleClasses> <Icon>units/maur_champion_chariot.png</Icon> <RequiredTechnology>unlock_champion_chariots</RequiredTechnology> </Identity> <VisualActor> <Actor>units/mauryas/chariot_archer_c_m.xml</Actor> </VisualActor> </Entity> Thx for replies in advance

Proposed changes for the fortress, additional techs and champions: For most civs there is only one technology in the fortress to research: will to fight. On top of that, some may build their heroes there too. But with the upcoming changes and the effort to move hero recruitment to special buildings (i.e. ptol in alpha27), there should be another use for the fortress apart from its poor defensive capability. Therefore I propose a number of unique technologies that should be researchable inside the fortress: These techs would be in a similar fashion like the ones in the imperial ministery (han). You will get to choose one from two mutually exclusive available techs: One has a more offensive character, the other one a defensive; i.e. Siege weapons deal 15% more damage or buildings have 25% more hp Another set of possible technologies are: one that give a small buff in general or a big buff for a certain building/unit type; i.e. Group training time -5% for all military units or +2 pierce armour for slingers Making these late game technologies mutually exclusive will add another layer of decision making and planning to the late game. Do I want to specialise in one unit type and risk being countered by the enemy? Do I focus on the defense as a flank in a TG or do I try doing an all out attack? Additionally there should be a change to the requirements for training champions: Some are trained in barracks others in special buildings. Take as an example the Briton Argos (swordsman) in comparison to the Maurya Visha Kanya. Both cost exactly the same, have the same training time and the same base stats. But the big difference is how you access these units: As a Briton you just click a tech for 600 food and are able to produce your champion out of as many barracks as you like, making it cheap and easy to mass the unit. In comparison as a Maurya you have to build a separate building costing 200 stone and 200 iron each. You have no way of effectively massing up your champions in the same way as the Briton without having to expense a small fortune. It is normal to have 8 to 10 or even 12 barracks in the late game. Therefore to have the same production capacities as a Maurya you would have to pay between 1600 and 2400 stone and iron, being the equivalent of 2 to 3 fortresses and 20 to 30 champions worth of material (ignoring food and wood cost, as they become less important late game). That is why I propose the implementation of one of these 3 different approaches to even out the disparity: 1. Champions can only be build in a special building like the Harmya or Syssition 2. Make all Champions be build in the fortress, with reduced base training time 3. Allow Civs to upgrade their barracks or stables for a price of 150 stone and iron. There they may build champions at the cost of having double the training time for civil soldiers in that barrack

@user1 Raffut1969 quit a rated 1v1 game against me (username: FriedrichDerGrosse). He left without resigning, which is kinda sad. Thanks in advance for your effort commands.txt