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Just what the title says. I don't have an agenda, just think it's interesting to have some exchange with people from all walks of life and from all around the globe. If you could, please don't knowingly spam fakes.

To have a starter: Now that the US are collecting evidence for possible war crimes in Ukraine I think it would be a good time for the US to:

  • join the ICC
  • lift all sanctions against ICC officials
  • and of course repeal the "Hague Invasion Act"
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17 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Now that the US are collecting evidence for possible war crimes in Ukraine

Forty-five nations pledge to coordinate evidence of war crimes in Ukraine

On Thursday, 45 countries at the conference in The Hague - headquarters of the International Criminal Court (ICC) - signed a political declaration to work together on investigations into war crimes in Ukraine.

Those countries included European Union states as well as Britain, the United States, Canada, Mexico and Australia.

https://www.reuters.com/world/west-seeks-coordinate-evidence-war-crimes-ukraine-2022-07-14/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8ico5WCIAAgCn_?format=png&name=small

A poster made in 1944 by the political movement Nasjonal Samling in Norway. A good analogy for the continuous usage of the US as a scarecrow, a fallacious argument.

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10 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

A good analogy for the continuous usage of the US as a scarecrow

Feeble attempt of killing with a killer phrase? Are the US member of the ICC? Did they impose sanctions against ICC officials? Do they have that "Hague Invasion Act"?

From your source:

Quote

The European Union's justice commissioner, Didier Reynders, noted that war crimes and genocide suspects were still at large from conflicts dating back decades in places such as Rwanda, Darfur, Syria, Congo and the Balkans.

Iraq? Afghanistan? Yemen? (And unfortunately a whole lotta more places.)

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47 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Are the US member of the ICC? Did they impose sanctions against ICC officials? Do they have that "Hague Invasion Act"?

You can rename the title of the thread to "please leave me a place to rant about the US"

Seriously if you want to talk about the US and their dirty history, no issue with that. But don't use the current situation in Ukraine as a pretext to do it.

Go straight for it, without trying to justify it with the current situation in Ukraine.

I find it really awful to do that when it is part of a speech used to relieve a belligerent of responsibility. Your whataboutism really bothers me.

Edited by Genava55
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@Genava55 I didn't rant about the US, nor did I get into their dirty past or their dirty present; all I did was making a general statement about the US and the ICC. If I really wanted to rant or whatabout I could fill pages and supply plenty of specifics.

What really bothers is me is the friggin' double standards. From the US, "my" politicians, "our" media... And the Ukraine is currently a very present example.

That you interpret that little paragraph as "a speech used to relieve a belligerent of responsibility" is astounding. I didn't say anyone did or didn't do anything. Frankly, I consider all the leading personnel in Russia, Ukraine, the US and the rest of the West as*holes, and if anything, I would like everyone held accountable by the same standards.

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9 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

What really bothers is me is the friggin' double standards.

You are really misplaced for saying this. You barely objected to Lion claims, mostly when it was about the green policy. From the first page of the previous topic, you have written almost exclusively criticisms about the US. You never objected anything to AIEND when he was defending the CCP.

Furthermore I posted a video about an Exxon lobbyist being caught on camera, you liked/thanked the video. I edited the message to add another video, demonstrating how a youtuber has been used by the Chinese government to deny the Uyghur genocide. You removed your like.

So... you have double standards too.

I continue to think you only want a place to rant about the US.

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24 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

You barely objected to Lion claims, mostly when it was about the green policy.

Yeah, truth be told: a lot of times I didn't even know what he was on about. Hard to argue with that, and honestly most of those times I also didn't feel compelled to get into whatever topic just to object to it.

I don't have a clear-cut opinion regarding the CCP. (Yet?) I also never wrote anything favorable about them. What I immediately disliked was how you totally changed your post ~a week later. And I somehow didn't like that guy and his vid, that's why I removed my like.

 

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

I continue to think you only want a place to rant about the US.

For the sake of it I just scrolled through the entire "previous thread" and can't confirm your claim of me being mono-thematic. But seeing how you got triggered by me just generally putting "US" and "ICC" in one sentence one shouldn't expect too much of your impartiality and "critical thinking".

Anyone got a take on the gov't of Hamburg? Germany? EU? Australia? Could be worth a rant... :)

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6 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

But seeing how you got triggered by me just generally putting "US" and "ICC" in one sentence one shouldn't expect too much of your impartiality and "critical thinking".

I actually don't mind criticizing the US for their hypocrisy on human rights. You can add their stance on the UDHR to the stack.

I am not pro-US. But I also don't follow most of the Left wing views on the US. Especially their obsession on the US, putting them responsible for everything bad happening in the world.

And your multiple messages gave me the feeling you have similar views to far-left politicians like Jean-Luc Mélenchon (France) and Pablo Iglesias (Spain). People I abhor because they use the US as a scarecrow to defend dictatorships and authoritarian regimes.

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Ofc I read about Mélenchon and Iglesias, but I don't really have an opinion yet about either.

12 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

People I abhor because they use the US as a scarecrow to defend dictatorships and authoritarian regimes.

I'm not defending any dictatorship or authoritarian regime. I'm just a "vaterlandsloser Geselle & Lumpenpazifist", meaning that I'm not a nationalist, think that wars should be avoided, and if there is a war ways to resolve it peacefully ought to be considered.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 months later...
Quote

On 7th December, the German newspaper Die Zeit published an interview with Angela Merkel in which she discussed her political legacy, including the Minsk agreements. These were peace deals between Ukraine the Russian-backed separatists brokered by herself and Francois Hollande in 2014/2015.

In the interview, Merkel said something that has attracted widespread attention, prompting responses from several world leaders: “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time.”

This, along with some of her other comments, has been interpreted as meaning that Merkel never intended to make peace between Ukraine and the Russian-backed separatists; she only wanted to give Ukraine time to build up its armed forces and prepare for a larger conflict.   [Emphasis by me]

https://dailysceptic.org/2022/12/14/merkel-and-minsk/

 

How Boris Johnson Sabotaged Ukraine Russia Peace Deal In April

 

I'm so sick and tired of our war propaganda that I just wanted to share two sources that highlight what BS we (in the West) are being fed.

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"Sabotaged a peace deal" vs "saved Ukraine from capitulating to a belligerent invader"...
What's the difference?

Make no mistake, the West has been expecting a confrontation like this against Russia for a LONG time. (I live in DC, and people talk. It's not news here.)
IMO the real end goal at this point is very much the dissolution of Putin's government and Russian empire, by any means short of nuclear war. So you are right that we do not want peace. There are multiple good reasons for that policy, aimed at preventing much suffering in the long run. Russia being a leaky keg of plutonium-nitro-glycerin, teetering on the edge of an economic/demographic cliff, and bordering several unstable parts of the world, is one reason. Another's the fact that subduing China's rival imperial ambitions will be much easier without Russia waiting behind the curtain to play king maker.

That's the secret. In a multipolar world with WMDs and a prisoner's alliance global economy, we are all under constant existential threat, which automatically legitimizes any extremity. Ukraine has been in check since February and desperately trying to avoid mate the only way it can, by becoming a Western puppet. Russia looks 2 moves ahead and sees itself checkmated unless it absorbs Ukraine (and the rest of the Eastern Europe). The US, China, and EU all see their own ruins in 3-5 moves.

But the fact that everyone's hands are equally dirty does not change the rules of the game.

Russia has invaded Ukraine twice in the last decade. The second time was an entirely naked land grab with genocidal undertones, that launched with the primary strategic aim of decapitating the legal government in Kiev. There is nothing to negotiate until Russia returns to within its own borders, and then we should accept their unconditional surrender (like in 1945). That's the rules, because we've seen where rewarding that kind of bellicosity in the European Peninsula and Asian Pacific takes us to: World Wars. If Ukraine can't finish off Russia on its own it might be too late already to stop WWIII, but the people in change in the west are betting they can still head off IV, V, and VI. And 3 World Wars is much better than 6.

Geopolitics sucks. The only winning move was not to play, but it's a little late for that now. :(

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2 hours ago, ChronA said:

Make no mistake, the West has been expecting a confrontation like this against Russia for a LONG time.

The West has been working towards a confrontation like this against Russia for a LONG time. As analogy to the Afghan trap I call it the Ukrainian trap.

Of course it serves mainly US goals, the rest of the western politicians don't count much and have their heads too far up the butt of the US. The main goal is to keep Russia separated from the rest of Europe; this is to ensure the hegemony of the US. That Europe is taking a nice hit and it strengthens the economy of the US is a nice bonus. If Russia can be crushed and turned into a docile supplier of natural resources the better.

Equally the West (the US) is working on a confrontation with China. Imho it won't stop China from overtaking the US, it will only cause much grief.

 

2 hours ago, ChronA said:

Geopolitics sucks. The only winning move was not to play, but it's a little late for that now. :(

Let's hope some new people change the game, without a catastrophe being the reason.

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This is hard to read ChronA. All about this is sad. People get absorbt, hurt and even killed in this power strugle. Nobody should involve, get roped in this power strugle. People like to live a love based live (like god intendet) not fester in a power strugle (like the devil seduce/entrap). People live and are not (play-) things. If u get attack oc u defend if necessary and flee if possible so u dont become a ill, lost dead soul. If u meet a ill person (or nation) go away and let time pass to heal. In life one has abundance.d

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

"Sabotaged a peace deal" vs "saved Ukraine from capitulating to a belligerent invader"...
What's the difference?

Death count

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

IMO the real end goal at this point is very much the dissolution of Putin's government and Russian empire, by any means short of nuclear war. So you are right that we do not want peace.

sad. The usa empire makes war to end russian empire not understanding live only the way of killing, the devils path. At the end of that path is death and only death. Power based "live" will not work. Instad of living u have end goals, plans, "living" a fantasy not seeing the day or any light and steady rotting from the inside compensated by drugs. Peace is good for all and not a bad thing.

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

 There are multiple good reasons for that policy,

No there is never a good reason for violence and yes violence is never a reason for violence. A is A und B is B, one thing, Action, moment stance for it self. Logic forms chains and that is a "mistake".

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

subduing China's

Subduing is not defending it is attacking. What for? Because u can see the future? Or because you are in your head and put logical chains to a hellish horror scenario. "Ambush them first before they ambush you". Fortunately, not everyone thinks that way. It would be hell.

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

we are all under constant existential threat, which automatically legitimizes any extremity.

No, if I cross someone's personal line, there is a danger of conflict. Then better run away and let time pass.

No, no extreme measure is ever necessary and everything is always allowed except devilish stuff which should never occur.

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

becoming a Western puppet.

Sad. Should not be. Either one gives and takes away or drives a devilish trade. Even in this situation I see Ukraine as independent. Only the government decides to play a puppet. Hopefully they will wake up from this illusion. It is not true.

 

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

Russia has invaded Ukraine twice in the last decade.

Sad and distant from life. Just fatal, deadly actions. Not ok.

 

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

and then we should accept their unconditional surrender (like in 1945). That's the rules,

Who is this we? How much better is this us? How high is this feeling of superiority? Power based life knows bottom and top being in constant struggle,constantly changing. Imposing something on others is far from life because it comes from the power struggle. It can never work. Only life is and devilish ends constantly, is in constant rotting and dying. Peace comes from life because at least one gives up the power struggle and is therefore possible at any time. It takes at least two sick people with dead souls for a power struggle.

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

because we've seen where rewarding that kind of bellicosity

Rewarding like dogs that you want to train, program like (dead) machines. You can't reward living creatures, only addict them. Sick and dead souls take things violently. The taking does not make them sick only the violence pushes the rotting ahead.

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

If Ukraine can't finish off Russia on its own it might be too late already to stop WWIII

It is not Ukraine and Russia it is Ukrainians and Russians, more precisely many individual people, not all. In the process, those people who have foolishly allowed themselves to be drawn into this conflict and those who have not allowed themselves to be drawn into it are being injured or even killed. Terrible. Not ok. Hopefully this madness will not continue. Violence is never a solution. The solution is always that everyone decides for himself not to join the power struggle and start living.  Finish off Russia is a vague sentence. Who is this Russia? Russia is here only a collective term for people who do something that is not pleasing. The not pleasing is crossing the borders and violence. The solution, reaction should be then crossing the borders and violence. Typical logic of the power struggle to repay like with like. An eternal vicious circle. Far from life without any love. Pure logic leads to ruin because logic works for dead not for life. Living beings function on the basis of love and use logic as a tool for dead material.

5 hours ago, ChronA said:

The only winning move was not to play, but it's a little late for that now.

Winning and chess moves are for dead things and dead souls not for living people. Living simply live. It is never too late not to murder and it is never too late to let go of a power cap and start living. It is everyone's own decision to participate in a power cap and not to participate again. Decisions can make everyone for itself at any time immediately and implement. Simply walk away and the power cap is over. It is an illusion to have to do something as long as there is some space and time for distance.

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2 小时前,wowgetoffyourcellphone 说:

如果俄罗斯不是由法西斯寡头统治呢?

Russia is now also a democratically elected government, and in fact, even if the government falls now, it is likely to pave the way for the rise of extreme right-wing parties to power. Do not imagine that the population is "moderate", extreme and aggressive is also a manifestation of democracy.

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5 小时前,Gurken Khan 说:

长期以来,西方一直致力于与俄罗斯进行这样的对抗。

主要目标是使俄罗斯与欧洲其他国家分离; 这是为了确保美国的霸权。

I think the main purpose is to maintain the influence of the United States in Europe, which requires an imaginary enemy like the Russian Federation.
If the Russian Federation is not an enemy, then why does NATO exist? If there is no enemy from Europe, NATO can only become a military alliance for the West to "conquer Asia and Africa" again.

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10 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

How about if Russia isn't run by a fascist oligarch?

Sure. Although I'm not sure if Putin qualifies as a fascist. (Not that I'm fond of him in any way.) But the US geostrategists have been talking about Ukraine for thirty years, and I think that the question about the current leader was negligible.

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I mean, I call them war criminals, but 11 million is a ridiculous number used to justify certain actions. Putin is not an anti-imperialist and Russia isn't the glorious people's commune anymore.  I opposed the Iraq War, et al., for the same reason I oppose Putin's Ukraine invasion. It's imperialist and prosecuted by a fascist dictator. Any leftist should oppose fascism in its many forms. Russia gets no pass just because they oppose the West.

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2 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Sure. Although I'm not sure if Putin qualifies as a fascist. (Not that I'm fond of him in any way.) But the US geostrategists have been talking about Ukraine for thirty years, and I think that the question about the current leader was negligible.

Putin surely qualifies as a fascist. He's just not a Nazi.

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I tend to find a lot of talking past one another in these debates. I mean, if one side says "Putin is an authoritarian dictator running a semi-failed oil state who committed war crimes by invading another nation" and the other side says "the U.S. commits more war crimes and has been heightening tension and conflict with Russia for decades," then both sides are correct.

Edited by thephilosopher
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19 minutes ago, thephilosopher said:

I tend to find a lot of talking past one another in these debates. I mean, if one side says "Putin is an authoritarian dictator running a semi-failed oil state who committed war crimes by invading another nation" and the other side says "the U.S. commits more war crimes and has been heightening tension and conflict with Russia for decades," then both sides are correct.

No argument here. 

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