Paper, Rock and scissors?

[Mabuse]

btw, i would nevertheless make the caalry strong, btw.

or better said appropriate to their strengh it had.

That the french knights were slaughtered at agincourt in muddy terrain with their heavy armored Horses and men was an exception and does not mean that hvy cavalry was weak in the middle ages. Maybe some Terrain will be more difficult for Cavalry

And the armor was superb. Not the bow or crossbow ended the knight area, the gun-power weapons which did damage through heaviest armor made the hvyknights (but not cavalry) useless.

now i don`t know much about the time around 0.a.d. perhaps the cavalry in these days was usually more or less LIGHT acvalry, not very armored and vulnerable to many things

[Belisarivs]

IMHO, cavalry was pretty weak in these days (except Persian Cataphract of course) ae stirrup was not invented yet and horses in these days were far from destriers in middle ages. But Ibelieve, that it wasn't gunpowder which ended time of cavalry but (swiss) pikes as cavaroy couldn't charge wall of pikes. Gunpowder unit weren't so powerful for some time. It rather scared enemy than kill him.

[Maher]

Hey Maybe This Has Been Said But I Got A Good Idea About This Spearman Vs Horseman Thing.

Give Spearman A "Piercing" Attack Bonus, And Make Horses Take More Damage When Attakced By "Piercing" Damage. And other untis with "Piercing" will also be affected. And units with Heavy Armour Won't.

Hope That Made Sense

[zabuza]

I couldn’t stand it anymore! I made an account specifically for this topic (although I may complain in other topics).

Cavalry Information: Belisarivs was right in the fact that heavy cavalry were the Gods of the battlefield. Any battalion of soldiers would fall victim to the charge of them, somehow this big rumor started that pike men

were the perfect counter to cavalry, it’s not as true as most people believe. Sure it will be more difficult to break through the lines with long pikes but really, it’s the same as holding a sword in front of you with just a little length. The heavy armor that was worn by the Cataphract could easily withstand the hit and break through the line, and any well trained war horse would not be forced to stop by the sight of them. With heavy cavalry there really was nothing you could do besides let them run through you on a charge (side note: there were two formations used to counter a cavalry charge, one of them was to just let the cavalry run through and have everybody avoid them; the most orderly way was to form a box formation which was actually developed by the Romans, it involved infantry making a box facing outward on all sides with archers behind them making it impossible to flank while only giving ¼ of the arches the ability to fire). Now that was the heavy cavalry; the more common cavalry that was used was much lighter. These were rarely used for charging; while the infantry advanced the light cavalry would run to the sides or around back to flank the enemy.

Adaption to game play: The Persians should be able to rule the battlefield with heavy cavalry, that is id they can afford them. Such greatness would not come cheap, to afford the training and armor of a Cataphract would be extremely expensive (in game terms, it would be well after early skirmishes have been fought). If the Persians managed to live this long and get a fair amount of Cataphracts than they would earn the chance to see them crush the enemy (the best counter would be archers or better yet walls if in 0 AD). As for the light cavalry, it would be essential for them to be very fast, and essential for them to be very weak. They would need to take the opportunities for a maneuver around the enemy and flank. The bonus(es) would become in effect, the cavalry would rip through the backs of infantry, and when the infantry get reorganized they would fight and the cavalry would die. If there aren’t any flank bonuses than the whole point of non-heavy cavalry is basically gone, you could just do what AOE1-3 + Cossacks + Warcraft 1-3 + etc. did and make them just another unit (but how boring is that, there is so much potential in cavalry but so many games ignore it).

Good examples of Cavalry in games: 1. The Medieval Total War wedge formation: this is a perfect example of the importance and strength of heavy cavalry (in medieval times most cavalry was heavy at least in Europe) 2. The Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle Earth: Finally a game where they show the true strength of cavalry. Sure they may overdue it a little bit but it is really a good example of how important them can be to a battle 3. It’s really sad that I can’t think of anymore

Titus Ultor’s Agincourt: You could find an example of any rarity, Alexander lead an army across a river and up a hill against an army twice the size and one: should there be a bonus for river crossing, 300 Spartans held position against countless (over a few hundred thousand I believe) for days: should we give a bonus for outnumbered troops, the Germans marched an army of tanks and cars through a forest that in nearly any other year would have been impossible (if it had rained just a little the tanks would have gotten stuck in mud): should there be a bonus for doing the unbelievable?

Phalanx formation: one final thing I would like to add. The phalanx formation was not anti-cavalry. It was an infantry fighting formation much like the shield wall. First row would put their shield up while they (and a few rows back) would lower their spears or spear like weapons. Then slowly marching forward they would try to spear the lines of infantry in front of them. If two battalions of spear men were both in a phalanx formation against each other (which was really common) they would be there for hours pushing back and forth. 95% of these would end with the victor having started with the deeper lines. Now hopefully the images of this in your mind will explain why this isn’t counter cavalry. If not: this is a very tight formation with people pushing against each other, they have no room; if one guy got on a horse he could quickly move around and just start hacking at the people in the back, with them so close and with big spears they wouldn’t be able to do anything (this also works with infantry flanking).

Sorry about all this, it’s break and I don’t have any papers to write.

--Zabuza

[Belisarivs]

I couldn’t stand it anymore! I made an account specifically for this topic (although I may complain in other topics).

Cavalry Information: Belisarivs was right in the fact that heavy cavalry were the Gods of the battlefield. Any battalion of soldiers would fall victim to the charge of them, somehow this big rumor started that pike men were the perfect counter to cavalry, it’s not as true as most people believe.

Sure it will be more difficult to break through the lines with long pikes but really, it’s the same as holding a sword in front of you with just a little length. The heavy armor that was worn by the Cataphract could easily withstand the hit and break through the line, and any well trained war horse would not be forced to stop by the sight of them. With heavy cavalry there really was nothing you could do besides let them run through you on a charge (side note: there were two formations used to counter a cavalry charge, one of them was to just let the cavalry run through and have everybody avoid them; the most orderly way was to form a box formation which was actually developed by the Romans, it involved infantry making a box facing outward on all sides with archers behind them making it impossible to flank while only giving ¼ of the arches the ability to fire). Now that was the heavy cavalry; the more common cavalry that was used was much lighter. These were rarely used for charging; while the infantry advanced the light cavalry would run to the sides or around back to flank the enemy.

Well, have you seen Braveheart? You could see here, that wall of pikes is pretty efficient in stopping cavalry charge. At Taginae were troops of Narses also able to hold their position against Ostrogothic heavy cavalry pretty well. It wasn't exception. Swiss were also exellent warriors and none cavalry could pass their lines from front (of course they could be outflanked, but they were still formidable force). And if we speak about Narses, we couldn't forget his marvellous victory over Franks. Their tight formation was impossible to deffeat by any horsemen, so he used horse archers and wiped them out.

Adaption to game play: The Persians should be able to rule the battlefield with heavy cavalry, that is id they can afford them. Such greatness would not come cheap, to afford the training and armor of a Cataphract would be extremely expensive (in game terms, it would be well after early skirmishes have been fought). If the Persians managed to live this long and get a fair amount of Cataphracts than they would earn the chance to see them crush the enemy (the best counter would be archers or better yet walls if in 0 AD). As for the light cavalry, it would be essential for them to be very fast, and essential for them to be very weak. They would need to take the opportunities for a maneuver around the enemy and flank. The bonus(es) would become in effect, the cavalry would rip through the backs of infantry, and when the infantry get reorganized they would fight and the cavalry would die. If there aren’t any flank bonuses than the whole point of non-heavy cavalry is basically gone, you could just do what AOE1-3 + Cossacks + Warcraft 1-3 + etc. did and make them just another unit (but how boring is that, there is so much potential in cavalry but so many games ignore it).

Cataphracts were really great soldiers, but I think, that they didn't use stirrupu still, so this would significantly reduce their stats. Personaly, In AoK I dislike, that Paladin is by far best unit with almost none usefull counter (halberdiear couldn't defeat Paladin and Camel sometimes, too). I know, that they were strong, but it turns game to the "train as much Paldins as possible and you are vistorious" style.

Light Cavalry should be in game really better, I agree.

Good examples of Cavalry in games: 1. The Medieval Total War wedge formation: this is a perfect example of the importance and strength of heavy cavalry (in medieval times most cavalry was heavy at least in Europe) 2. The Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle Earth: Finally a game where they show the true strength of cavalry. Sure they may overdue it a little bit but it is really a good example of how important them can be to a battle 3. It’s really sad that I can’t think of anymore.

IN Medieval, wedge isn't that exellent formation, as it increases attack by 3 but decreases defence by same amount. But I agree with you. MTW is exellent example of how tactics should be implemented.

Titus Ultor’s Agincourt: You could find an example of any rarity, Alexander lead an army across a river and up a hill against an army twice the size and one: should there be a bonus for river crossing, 300 Spartans held position against countless (over a few hundred thousand I believe) for days: should we give a bonus for outnumbered troops, the Germans marched an army of tanks and cars through a forest that in nearly any other year would have been impossible (if it had rained just a little the tanks would have gotten stuck in mud): should there be a bonus for doing the unbelievable?

It isn't example in rarity. It is about quality of troops and their commanders. Spartns were true elite and I've read, that one battle against Persians was won because Commander of allied armies managed to manouver Spartans in front line to still face enemy.

alexander himself could be outnumbered, but he was exellent commander, while his opponent wasn't at all and we could say the same about his soldiers.

Germans had also exellent commanders and their tanks were good, too, Czechoslovaks developed manouverable tanks perfectly suitable or such terrain and they fell to the German hands after occupation of Bohemia and Moravia.

Also at Agincourt was English army and their commanders incomparably better. It was pretty example of ineffectiveness of feudal fighting style. While English had perfectly trained and disciplined army af professionals who fought as one man, French had army of knights, who fought on their own ignoring orders of commander and charging as undisciplined horde. This was also reason why Mongolians were undeffeatable. Because in Feudal armies it was nearly impossible to gain total contol over army, but when some commander managed to do so and also used some basic tactics, he became famous and almost undeffeateble.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention Hussite armies. When hussite commander Jan Zizka z Trocnova managed to deffeat any crusade launched against Hussite (one crusade even ran in fear before battle) and whe he managed to deffeat 12000 Royal Heavy Cavalrymen winth 800 people including women and children, it is also exllent example representing fact, that to be on horse and armoured yet doesn't mean to be invincible.

Phalanx formation: one final thing I would like to add. The phalanx formation was not anti-cavalry. It was an infantry fighting formation much like the shield wall. First row would put their shield up while they (and a few rows back) would lower their spears or spear like weapons. Then slowly marching forward they would try to spear the lines of infantry in front of them. If two battalions of spear men were both in a phalanx formation against each other (which was really common) they would be there for hours pushing back and forth. 95% of these would end with the victor having started with the deeper lines. Now hopefully the images of this in your mind will explain why this isn’t counter cavalry. If not: this is a very tight formation with people pushing against each other, they have no room; if one guy got on a horse he could quickly move around and just start hacking at the people in the back, with them so close and with big spears they wouldn’t be able to do anything (this also works with infantry flanking).

Right you are. Phalanx weren't anticavalry. They were intended to stop advance of enemy, so Companions usually led by Alexander himself could charge his flanks or rear. That is why were Macedonians conquered, they stopped using cavalry and used only Phalanx.