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Differentiating Civilizations: Sparta


borg-
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12 minutes ago, borg- said:

I thought of krypteia as a technology where young Spartans gain experience faster to actually become champions as we know in the current alpha but helots take longer to train. But I don't know how this works with hoplite tradition, it can be op. Instead of experience can gain attack. We can also remove hoplite tradition to affect champions.

Perhaps:

 

Agoge unlocks a tech pair: Pankration vs. Krypteia. Pankration adds health, while Krypteia adds attack speed. Must choose.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Perhaps:

 

Agoge unlocks a tech pair: Pankration vs. Krypteia. Pankration adds health, while Krypteia adds attack speed. Must choose.

How is the patch now, agoge is no longer a technology but an xp aura for young spartans. The young spartan with the necessary xp evolves into the spartan as we know it now. And we have a third "form" which is through upgrade, which is olimpian spartiate.

I preferred to upgrade to olimpian rather than a technology like Pankration, although they can exist together.

Edited by borg-
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About neodamodes, I thought about brasidas to be able to research a technology that allows helotas skmishers to be hoplites, anyway I don't know if this is just interesting for the current gameplay. What do we know about them, were they good soldiers? Did they have something special?

 

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35 minutes ago, borg- said:

About neodamodes, I thought about brasidas to be able to research a technology that allows helotas skmishers to be hoplites, anyway I don't know if this is just interesting for the current gameplay. What do we know about them, were they good soldiers? Did they have something special?

 

They did not have anything special, but since they achieve free status after serving in the military, they must be good enough soldiers to survive at least one campaign.

I think such a mechanic existed in DE @wowgetoffyourcellphone

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16 minutes ago, Outis said:

They did not have anything special, but since they achieve free status after serving in the military, they must be good enough soldiers to survive at least one campaign.

I think such a mechanic existed in DE @wowgetoffyourcellphone

Tnx!!

Maybe a rank 2 (advanced) hoplite might be historically correct.

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2 hours ago, borg- said:

About neodamodes, I thought about brasidas to be able to research a technology that allows helotas skmishers to be hoplites, anyway I don't know if this is just interesting for the current gameplay. What do we know about them, were they good soldiers? Did they have something special?

 

I don't think they were good soldiers. We know for sure that one of the challenges the young spartans had to face during their "training" for being hoplites was the "crypteia/κρυπτεία". They had to go out in the night and find helots, with the only task of killing them and stealing their food. They were literally used as meat for training, and that makes me think of a more or less null and void military preparation among them.
An ancient greek historian, Mirone di Priene, even said that the helots "too physically similar to a spartan in strength and vigor" were killed with no hesitation. 
As far as I remember, but I can't give a precise source, when called to the military duties helots were usually equipped with a pike but without armor (lol). Sometimes they were also slingers, or simply used to bring food to the soldiers in the battlefield.

Hope this can help, finally my 5 years of ancient greek classes in high school are showing some utility lmao

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I would support some way of upgrading spartan hoplites or some kind of training aura for surrounding units, but I don’t agree with the “young  Spartans” system. It seems overly complicated for the gameplay benefit it might deliver. I think this system is straying from the scope of 0ad and I think there are simpler and more elegant ways to incorporate Spartiates’ social and military roles into Sparta as a 0ad civ.

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Yeah I think the young spartan -> spartiate -> champion spartan progression with upgrades, different stats and costs is too complicated while not bringing very interesting gameplay to the table. I agree with @BreakfastBurrito_007 that more simple changes are best for differentiating sparta. We don't need to add unprecedented mechanics in the name of differentiation (AOE 4 style).

Here is a list of changes (some of which are already mentioned) that would be straightfoward, yet bring significant gameplay changes:

  • infantry movement speed upgrade and/or hero aura
  • differentiate spartiate champs
    • training aura, upgrade to spartiate champion (sort of like silver sheilds) or single tech pair like @wowgetoffyourcellphone suggested.
  • Some straightforward eco bonus or addition
    • Ex. I liked the "helot worker" idea, with different gather rate stats. No upgrades, just another eco unit other than woman.
  • Some change in available buildings
    • p1 (p2 perhaps) syssition or bring stoa to the spartans. Perhaps the stoa could train helot workers among a couple civic upgrades.
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@BreakfastBurrito_007 & @real_tabasco_sauce fair enough about complicating without any added benefit. What do you (and everyone else) think about this:

- Sparta has Spartiatai in P2 in limited numbers (historically, they could create a champion army due to their social structure without creating a large state, or P3 in our case)

- Spartiatai become much stronger than champions of other factions in P3 through technology pairs suggested by @wowgetoffyourcellphone, still in limited numbers but more than in P2 (historically, they suffered from low population, due to being a small state and population decline a.k.a. Oliganthropia)

- As a further strategic choice, include Cleomenes III as a hero, instead of Agis III, who brings a technology, call it Land Reform (help me with a name please:D), which removes or relaxes the limit to Spartiatai in exchange for a slight decrease in stats or nullify the above techs (historically, Cleomenes III made a land reform to increase the number of Spartiatai, slight decrease in stats is my interpretation for a break in tradition. He also reformed Spartiatai to use sarissa rather than dory, we may include it as well)

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Posted (edited)

Spartiates must be trained in p1, they represent the spartan population. The fact that they are very expensive to train in phase 1. The young spartan is a slightly stronger soldier than the common hoplite, just with a little more health and faster movement speed. it's a lot cheaper than the current one too (like 50f 30m), that gives you a chance to train at p1, but you need fight to increase level or just wait XP boost (agoge aura), anyway it can still be very efficient level 1. No seems complicated to me, it works like an citizen soldier who can pass the level. When he is at level 2 he can no longer get level 3, just upgrade to olimpian. Anyway i can make the patch more simpler.

Edited by borg-
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55 minutes ago, borg- said:

Spartiates must be trained in p1, they represent the spartan population. The fact that they are very expensive to train in phase 1. The young spartan is a slightly stronger soldier than the common hoplite, just with a little more health and faster movement speed. it's a lot cheaper than the current one too (like 50f 30m), that gives you a chance to train at p1, but you need fight to increase level or just wait XP boost (agoge aura), anyway it can still be very efficient level 1. No seems complicated to me, it works like an citizen soldier who can pass the level. When he is at level 2 he can no longer get level 3, just upgrade to olimpian. Anyway i can make the patch more simpler

Ok this helps a lot, thanks for the clarification!

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11 hours ago, borg- said:

Spartiates must be trained in p1, they represent the spartan population. The fact that they are very expensive to train in phase 1.

I would say this is fine as is: ssysition and normal spartiates in p1.

Upgrading into olympic champion could be available in p3. 

The addition of a helot worker with better metal and stone gather speed than women could be a means of affording these in p1.

Then once you are in p3, you can get an upgrade just like silver shields to make olympic champions, or to allow them to rank into olympic champions.

no need for 3 different units running around, with very different stats.

 

going all in p1 spartiates means you are basically committed to stay in p1 (at least for much longer than other civs). This seems kind of accurate to be honest.

Also, @borg- I like a lot of your ideas, but I am afraid this one is like training horses from the corral to allow cavalry.

Edited by real_tabasco_sauce
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18 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I would say this is fine as is.

Upgrading into olympic champion could be available in p3. 

The addition of a helot worker with better metal and stone gather speed than women could be a means affording these in p1.

Then once you are in p3, you can get an upgrade just like silver shields to make olympic champions, or to allow them to rank into olympic champions.

no need for 3 different units running around, with very different stats.

Olympic champion can be trained instead of an upgrade. You can research pankration to unlock training for that unit. Powerful but expensive unit with number limited training.

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1 minute ago, borg- said:

Olympic champion can be trained instead of an upgrade. You can research pankration to unlock training for that unit. Powerful but expensive unit with number limited training.

if the upgrade allows them to rank up (by fighting, garrisoning) into olympic champion, then I see no need for a limit to be honest.

The way you described seems fine too.

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Posted (edited)

About krypteia, some sources say it is as a special police or as a reconnaissance force, on the other hand we have sources claiming to be part of the agoge, where the best were part of the krypteia, whose objective was to kill the potential helots of revolts. On that note, what kind of technologies would fit in here? Attack speed increase / attack speed increase but increase helot training speed, any other suggestions?

Remembering that it already includes a technology to increase gather in farms for helots but decreasing their attack and also a technology to increase movement speed for champions (tyrtean paeans)

Edited by borg-
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Here is the first version of patch.
I'm happy with the results so far, I think it's fun, different and more historically realistic than the current situation.


Changes:

- Syssitia available in phase 1

- Champions can be trained on p1

They are young Spartans, have not yet completed the agoge training. They are barefoot and without armor, just their shield and spear. Its power is equal to a hoplite citizen, but with 100 health. Training time of 12 seconds. Requires 120 xp to be a traditional champion (nivel 2) as we know it. Hoplite tradition tech also affects young spartan, creating an interesting synergy.

- Syssitia has an agoge aura, which provides xp trickle to nearby spartan young

- Agoge tech removed

- Champion nivel 2 can upgrade by 40 metal to champion olimpian

- Gerusia back to the game available in phase 1

Now heroes are trained in gerusia. Gerusia has special technology apophora, available phase 1. Infantry skirmishers can gather grain 100% faster (same as women), but -20% attack. I want put two more technologies

- Two new technologies

Tyrtean paeans: champions +10 attack. Available phase 3

Krypteia: champions +20% movement speed. Available phase 2

sparta0.1.zip

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13 hours ago, borg- said:

Krypteia: champions +20% movement speed. Available phase 2

@borg- since there is only one champion, wouldn't it be ideal if the bonus affected all melee infantry.

The value could be brought down to 15% in that case.

 

13 hours ago, borg- said:

They are young Spartans, have not yet completed the agoge training. They are barefoot and without armor, just their shield and spear. Its power is equal to a hoplite citizen, but with 100 health. Training time of 12 seconds. Requires 120 xp to be a traditional champion (nivel 2) as we know it. Hoplite tradition tech also affects young spartan, creating an interesting synergy.

- Syssitia has an agoge aura, which provides xp trickle to nearby spartan young

- Agoge tech removed

by the way, I am still against this.

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Well we can work the agoge in another way. Instead of xp tricke, he can give champions more attack/health or other atribute with each passing age. In this model, the young soldier is removed.

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11 hours ago, borg- said:

Well we can work the agoge in another way. Instead of xp tricke, he can give champions more attack/health or other atribute with each passing age. In this model, the young soldier is removed.

I think the young spartan part doesn't really belong in 0ad.

My complete suggestion:

syssition available in p1 with a build limit of 1. Normal spear champs may be trained there (might need train time nerf in the future).

apophora is available from the CC in phase 1 (replacing Hoplite tradition spot in the CC).

Gerusia is available in p2 with 2-3 upgrades, and heroes in p3.

The Gerusia upgrades should be:

  • Hoplite tradition, and Krypteia: melee infantry +15% movement speed. (Available phase 2)
  • Tyrtean paeans: champions +10% attack. Available phase 3

P3 upgrade in the syssition or fort: allows spartiates to rank up into olympic champions.

As for the agoge, I am a little unsure:

Perhaps it remains an upgrade (expensive one, but maybe available p2): something like -30% train time +10% HP. It would make more sense to decrease train time, since the training was standardized for all spartan males.

alternatively, it could be left as is.

 

I dislike the idea of the xp aura because this could be used to make an entire woodline rank 3. Also, olympic champions should be best obtained by fighting, not by sitting next to or inside a building.

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12 hours ago, borg- said:

he can give champions more attack/health or other atribute with each passing age

I should have mentioned it earlier, and I think this is now the best option:

CIV BONUS: "Agora"

Champions -15% train time (maybe also +10 HP) in the next phase.

p1: 100% train time, 200 health

p2: 85% train time, 210 health

p3: 72.25% train time, 220 health

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