Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[vinme]

Id advise, to remove 1 more armor from pikes, but add 30% dmg.
this was my original advice on pike fix, for a26 ie from 10 to -3 and +30% dmg.

dmg part is very important, as it is rn, i can snipe ranged inf, with my mele AND ranged inf togehter, totally ignoring pikes, this gives slight advnatage, to me as spear/sword civ, i believe, if i get mele dmg techs, especially.

pikes can be ignored, and because of collision circles being small, they really dont blockade much space, to deny access to ranged for my mele, without unreasonable numbers.

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yes, I think a ptol nerf is something we can experiment with in the mod.

I wanted to take aim at some tradeoff for the cheap houses, storehouses, farmsteads, but I am undecided.

 

Honestly, I agree with pikes, 1 hack, 1.5 pierce damage per second is almost negligible, (as seen in fights where you lose your slingers). I think pikes should have the armor/damage model of the halberdiers (ji) from Han, while the ji get even more damage, even less armor.

note that these are still quite different from spearmen, as the attack strength of pikemen is that many can attack the same unit at once.

[vinme]

no, halberds are too strong, you have to see the full picture when balancing, you are balancing a civ, not a unit, remember that.

For han they are a nice special unit, +40% dmg, -2armor(from original a25 pikes) pto is already packed to the brim and overflowing with all 3 parameters of op ness, Military Power, Eco and Versatility.

id say 7 pierce(-1 armor from current 8), 6.5 per 2 sec(vs 5 b4 , so 30% buff) is fair, keeps unit special, ie +2 armor, less dmg, 10% slower. Keep in mind, with this model, halberds would get 50-55% buff to dmg, not old 40, so would be just 20-25% more dmg, than pikes.

 

the thing is, with the way fights work, to keep things reasonably balanced, because in fights even slight advnatage will produce immense results in the end, we cant give crystal clear specialties/advantages to unit, so much so that any noob can tell that they are clearly winning, even outnumbered like 95 vs 100.

The advantages/specialties must be so tiny, that they only make a difference when things are really dead even, which makes them functionally irrelevant and invisible to anyone not high level.

so 20% more dmg, to a unit that has least relevant stat being dmg, ie pike, is fine.

I think having even more atack, for halberds, becoming like pike/spear hybrid, is fine also, but then what about range? what about movement speed? also inbetween? 

Also, why no hack nerf? 

 

[Norse_Harold]

On 07/10/2022 at 3:50 PM, alre said:

nerf p3 upgrades. third level upgrade alone is senselessly strong, making units 44% more effective if you combine attack and defence. if you combine all p3 forge upgrades you get a 74% increase in value of all your units.

This.

I think that either all of the forge upgrades should be (small) percentage increases, or none of them should be.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Norse_Harold

[real_tabasco_sauce]

9 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

https://gitlab.com/LetswaveaBook/0adtest2/-/tree/main

@LetswaveaBook I can't see ur repository. Did you make a fork of the main repository?

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/forks

[seeh]

idk how to get. do you have easy step to get it? i tried git clone and also downloaded the zip. i also switched to a branch. idk

"version": "0.26.2", <== thats what some using in the lobby now and some days before

i have

"version": "0.26.1",

 

==>now i have it. was offered to download and enable using the normal 0ad GUI (setting>mods>donwload)

Edited October 9, 2022 by seeh

[chrstgtr]

7 hours ago, vinme said:

Make ptol "cheaper buildings" have proportionally less caputre points, so 35% is the amount i think, the cheapness gives op broken eco boom, coupled with food trickle early on which is less relevant, at least this will give some logical/reasonable cost since hp is already affected.

so storehouses, farmsteads houses.

Id even strongly advise, to make this advantage smaller, to begin with, maybe halve it at least, to 10-15% cheaper.

It really is an overly unfair advantage.

Make mele dmg techs affect war elephants, since ele are soldiers, get affected by armor techs, so i dont see who not mele tehcs, also im 99.9% sure this is a bug to begin with.

 

Or revert to old system with longer build times. 
 

Ptol plays the same as every other civ except it is easier. There is zero trade off, which makes it broken. 

[chrstgtr]

On 18/06/2022 at 2:58 AM, wraitii said:

Hello everyone,

LINK: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26

Following recent & less recent discussions on the forum, the team has a proposal on how to improve balancing that seems viable in the short term. This post will explain the 'what' and 'why'.

What

We will make a copy of the files relevant to balancing (templates, civ data, techs, ...) as of A26's release, and create a new repository on Gitlab. This repository will be bundled as a 'A26 community balance' mod, and regularly signed & uploaded on mod.io by the 0 A.D. team. The mod will also be easily downloadable directly from gitlab.

Community members will be granted commit access to this repository, on a voluntary basis, by 0 A.D. team members. This commit access is subject to the expected rules, such as not trying to mess everyone's work and generally behave productively.
More generally, the mod will be public and anyone can easily make PRs using GitHub/gitlab's interface, and people with commit access will be able to merge PRs.

This mod can then evolve on its own after A26's release, independently of 0 A.D.'s work towards A27.

Why

We agree with you that balancing is a sore point for 0 A.D. The issue is complex, and the team lacks time to fix it. Previous efforts, such as the balancing PM or the balancing subforum, did not work well enough. Furthermore, we receive a lot of feedback from the community on gameplay and would like to give the community a more hands-on approach. There are far more players than team members, and we hope that having more people with commit access will speed things up.

We understand that Phabricator is a little unwieldy. Using a better known tool will also make it easier for people to make changes.
We cannot currently give commit access to the whole SVN repo, nor can we easily split the 0 A.D. mod to make balancing its own repository.
Making more regular releases seems unrealistic at the moment.
Migration to gitlab is also a work in progress.

Therefore, we think this is an easy way to make strides forward while not increasing the workload of the team too much.

By making it a mod that can easily be downloaded, and that's provided by the 0 A.D. team, we can somewhat ensure that the mod will be played, and thus a better product. This also relieves the team of some of the pressure of balancing the release right away, since we know unbalanced units (which are somewhat inevitably discovered after release) can be fixed.

What happens with A27?

This balance mod's scope will not follow potential engine changes in A27, and may not be immediately portable when the time to release comes around. Our hope is that, by comparing the mod with A26, the 0 A.D. team can understand the direction that things should go in and port relevant changes in a coherent manner. This will almost necessarily lead to some changes not being ported, or to some work being necessary to do so.

To summarise: we'll give you the keys to the car to make A26 a more fun game. By the time A27 comes, we can hopefully use your work (and our own) as a good template for a better game out of the box.

If this experiment is a success, we may reproduce it after A27, but time will tell.

---

The repository will be shared around the A26 actual release, to make sure the files are indeed those from A26. In the meantime, feel free to share feedback on the idea and indicate what you'd consider a fitting role for yourself.

Just a suggestion that maybe that OP should list what changes were made to each version of the mod. Something like the below. This will allow players to see what actually changes and help determine whether a change is actually desirable. 

 

Changes Made

• 0.26.1
  • Fixed Han field upgrades by...
• 0.26.2
  • [Fill]

[Stan`]

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/issues/3

Only the garrison fix for now

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/commits/main

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 hours ago, vinme said:

think having even more atack, for halberds, becoming like pike/spear hybrid, is fine also, but then what about range? what about movement speed? also inbetween? 

it would have to be like a sword and a pike.

There should be cut damage.

[chrstgtr]

13 minutes ago, Stan&#x60; said:

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/issues/3

Only the garrison fix for now

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/commits/main

Ok, thanks--this is helpful. But I spent a few minutes looking and wasn't able to easily find it. I now see where it was at, but it not intuitively evident. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Which are the changes? it would be nice to post a track of the changes.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[wraitii]

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

Just a suggestion that maybe that OP should list what changes were made to each version of the mod. Something like the below. This will allow players to see what actually changes and help determine whether a change is actually desirable. 

I'll look into that at some point, but I don't believe you can see it from inside the game anyways ?

[chrstgtr]

22 minutes ago, wraitii said:

I'll look into that at some point, but I don't believe you can see it from inside the game anyways ?

You’re right. Maybe an in game “recent changes” viewer would be best. 
 

My last few points are just to say: it should be readily apparent what changes were made by the mod. I don’t know if that is easiest is in a forum stickied post or in an in-game option.
 

The mod is a great idea, but right now it takes a bit of digging to figure out what the mod actually does, which undercuts any goals beyond serving as a hot-fix for Han farming upgrades (which itself is really important)

[guerringuerrin]

4 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

You’re right. Maybe an in game “recent changes” viewer would be best. 
 

My last few points are just to say: it should be readily apparent what changes were made by the mod. I don’t know if that is easiest is in a forum stickied post or in an in-game option.
 

The mod is a great idea, but right now it takes a bit of digging to figure out what the mod actually does, which undercuts any goals beyond serving as a hot-fix for Han farming upgrades (which itself is really important)

Changes Made

• 0.26.1
  • Fixed Han field upgrades 1 and 3 not working
• 0.26.2
  • Fix the victory conditions infinite loop bug with A27 files

One easy step could be update lobby subject in order to show this changes? 

[Stan`]

9 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

One easy step could be update lobby subject in order to show this changes? 

Could be done  I'd like to have actual balancing changes before making more noise.

@Freagarach changed some stuff today, maybe it could be integrated. Dunno.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

40 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Could be done  I'd like to have actual balancing changes before making more noise.

well there are 5 already, but I wonder if we should also do a ptol nerf like @chrstgtr and @vinme suggest. I think we can increase build time for houses, storehouses, farmsteads and give pikes -2 hack armor and some additional pierce damage.

the 5 existing merge requests:

details here: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests

feedback anyone? @chrstgtr, @BreakfastBurrito_007, @vinme, @LetswaveaBook

• Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units

  improve ram pathing/usability
• Pericles and Themistocles update

  see aforementioned auras and screenshots.
• Rebalance healers by making them cheaper

  100 food, 25 metal cost

  temple techs cheaper
• Move tier 2 blacksmith technologies to Town Phase

  self explanatory
• Nerf heroes Iphicrates and Ptolemy
  Iphicrates gives +2 armor of all types instead of +3, and ptolemy -35% merc cost to -35% merc train time.

^ I think if the ptol hero is changed to train time, it should be a massive difference. Something like 60 to 75 percent faster.

Edited October 10, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[vinme]

difficulty of using rams/ele is part of their balance at this point, theyll get stronger if easier to use.

I cant understand what the pericles/themistocles changes are, only thing that link shows is "reduce bonus by 10%" or something, id what bonus, etc.

but id say fixing useless heroes would be the easiest and most effective way to improve civs.

healers, good idea, 100 food 25 metal still seems too expensive, try 75/25.

I think moving second blacksmith techs to p2 is a very bad idea, for exactly the reason novax explained, as justification for doing it.

It is good that people can gain balcksmith tech resarch initiative thru p3 ing, theres barely any incentive to p3 early, its too expensive otherwise, and the value of p3 eco techs comes very late, one can p3>make siege>atack and get way better value through it.

Dont nerf iphricates, horrible idea, it is only thing keeping athen somewhat viable as civ.

pto merc cost hero change to -35% train time will make it 100% useless.Considering its huge cost+ training from castle.

Even if its 70% less traintime, will not be that strong, maybe equivlanet to 7.5% dmg hero in value, after its made but you basically save lets say 1000-2000 res at 250-300 pop from traintime cost reduction as mercs already train fast(not many baracs needed), so you save some barac cost/colony cost. But castle cost+buildtime AND hero cost + maketime remove any value from it.

honestly i dont see it as very broken, if merc inf just get increased cost of 10-15 food, this gives the merc hero op ness by making already op mercs.

One sacrifices abiltiy to have stronger army by standard 20% hero, so even if units are cheaper, its ok as youll lose about as much, if not bit more advantage, by fighting 100 vs 100, while enemy has 20% more dmg, causing decisive loss for you, even tho your units cost less, and even tho you repop easier.

this is considering, castle sourced hero, slows hero arrival considerably, so theres not as much time rn, as from cc(fastest hero train source). It was broken b4 hand, you could early p3, get hero in 30-50 sec, and mass cheap af mercs starting rly early, compounding the advantage.

what does need nerf, i strongly believe, is 40% hp pike hero, very op i dont get why +3 armor hero should get nerfed for otherwise useless/very weak civ like athen with weak eco, weak versatility, weak/empty everything, while op pto gets to keep 40% hp pike hero.

reduce 40% by 10% at least, maybe 15%. so 25-30%.

 

[chrstgtr]

5 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

well there are 5 already, but I wonder if we should also do a ptol nerf like @chrstgtr and @vinme suggest. I think we can increase build time for houses, storehouses, farmsteads and give pikes -2 hack armor and some additional pierce damage.

the 5 existing merge requests:

details here: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests

feedback anyone? @chrstgtr, @BreakfastBurrito_007, @vinme, @LetswaveaBook

• Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units

  improve ram pathing/usability
• Pericles and Themistocles update

  see aforementioned auras and screenshots.
• Rebalance healers by making them cheaper

  100 food, 25 metal cost

  temple techs cheaper
• Move tier 2 blacksmith technologies to Town Phase

  self explanatory
• Nerf heroes Iphicrates and Ptolemy
  Iphicrates gives +2 armor of all types instead of +3, and ptolemy -35% merc cost to -35% merc train time.

^ I think if the ptol hero is changed to train time, it should be a massive difference. Something like 60 to 75 percent faster.

I would go slow. This alpha isn't fully understood yet. And introducing a bunch of new changes will make understanding this alpha and the new changes very difficult.

 

With that said there are a few universal changes that impact all civs equally. My thoughts below:

• Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units

  Good
• Pericles and Themistocles update

  Not needed--no one makes these heroes 
• Rebalance healers by making them cheaper
  Yes to healer cost. 
  No, to healer upgrades--should do one at a time. Healers were often used in a23. I could see this making a civ like Athens with Iphicrates and healers OP. 
• Move tier 2 blacksmith technologies to Town Phase

  Yes. P2 is currently a transition phase with little actual fighting. P3 incentive still exists for eco/final blacksmith reasons
• Nerf heroes Iphicrates and Ptolemy
  No for now. Need to see how this alpha plays out. It's been discussed elsewhere, but Iphicates should become a distance aura instead of a formation aura. With that said, I will likely agree with this for Iphicates. I don't like the Ptol change

[Stan`]

16 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units

Good

@vinmeany objections to that one?

[Dizaka]

I like this mod.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Pericles and Themistocles update

Not needed--no one makes these heroes 

I understand with your point on understanding the alpha first (ie letting the "meta" settle), but these heroes have been and remain awful with, as you said, nobody using them.

The idea is to make them useful, which is content. Why not add these? I could understand not changing mercenaries yet for example, as its not clear yet how effective the nerf was, but the heroes seem harmless to add.

Edited October 11, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 08/10/2022 at 1:43 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/8

fixed merge request XD.

 

5 hours ago, vinme said:

I cant understand what the pericles/themistocles changes are, only thing that link shows is "reduce bonus by 10%" or something, id what bonus, etc.

see above

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I understand with your point on understanding the alpha first (ie letting the "meta" settle), but these heroes have been and remain awful with, as you said, nobody using them.

The idea is to make them useful, which is content. Why not add these? I could understand not changing mercenaries yet for example, as its not clear yet how effective the nerf was, but the heroes seem harmless to add.

The Athens heroes proposal is largely a nerf. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

17 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

The Athens heroes proposal is largely a nerf. 

u mean this? How is this worse than what they have?

Spoiler

Maybe it's just not obvious that Pericles's loot aura also applies to xp (a kind of loot), so enemy soldiers do not promote. I could amend the description.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce