Balancing the Han

[Stan`]

20 minutes ago, AIEND said:

4. Now the soldiers lack Chinese dubbing, I can find someone to record it, but I hope someone can provide a list of voices.

Should male and female, in ancient chinese if possible Audio_Voice_List – Wildfire Games

20 minutes ago, AIEND said:

2. I don't know why the citizen soldier swordsman was deleted, I thought it should be a combination of swordsman and JI.

Discussion should be there but I can't find specifics @borg- @maroder [Differential] D4713 [balance] Han unit roster restructure (wildfiregames.com)

20 minutes ago, AIEND said:

The names of the palace and the official hall should be reversed. In China, the palace means the central government, and the official hall is the local government.

Technically the wonder is the local governement iirc, so while it might be confusing the name is correct.

20 minutes ago, AIEND said:

. At the same time, the academy that can train soldiers does not exist in China. The academy should be abolished and the champion units and heroes should be placed in the palace. (Champion soldiers should also unlock training in stables and barracks).

Barracks, Blacksmith, Stables, and Arsenals, are buildings that also do not exist but are kept for gameplay, so it's not an issue. This can however and should be discussed in this mod once it launches. It is now too late to change balancing. We are now six months late into development.

 

 

[Carltonus]

4 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Should male and female, in ancient chinese if possible.

Does that mean Old Chinese? Consider using Wiktionary and/or the classics as reference(s) for greetings and vocabulary. 

[AIEND]

50 分钟前，斯坦` 说：

应该是男性还是女性，如果可能的话用古汉语 Audio_Voice_List – Wildfire Games

应该有讨论，但我找不到细节 @borg-@  maroder  [差异] D4713 [平衡] 汉单位名册重组（wildfiregames.com）

从技术上讲，奇迹是当地政府 iirc，因此虽然名称可能令人困惑，但名称是正确的。

兵营、铁匠铺、马厩和军械库都是不存在但为了游戏而保留的建筑物，所以这不是问题。 然而，一旦它启动，这可以并且应该在这个 mod 中讨论。 现在改变平衡为时已晚。 我们现在的开发晚了六个月。

 

 

Ancient Chinese is more difficult to pronounce, and I don't recommend it very much, because the names of buildings and units are all in modern Chinese, and I hope Chinese players can understand the meaning of pronunciation.

That's what's weird about me, I was involved in that discussion, and the result of that discussion didn't mention removing the swordsman, but now the swordsman isn't in the game.

I'm not talking about wonder, I'm talking about Guān Shǔ and Gōngdiàn should exchange names.

 

[Stan`]

3 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Ancient Chinese is more difficult to pronounce, and I don't recommend it very much, because the names of buildings and units are all in modern Chinese, and I hope Chinese players can understand the meaning of pronunciation.

Well then the name are wrong. Just like building names are written in ancient greek. 

4 minutes ago, AIEND said:

That's what's weird about me, I was involved in that discussion, and the result of that discussion didn't mention removing the swordsman, but now the swordsman isn't in the game.

I don't know then. @maroder

5 minutes ago, AIEND said:

I'm not talking about wonder, I'm talking about Guān Shǔ and Gōngdiàn should exchange names.

Ok. https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/27075 That was the last change. We are now in String freeze.

 

55 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

Does that mean Old Chinese? Consider using Wiktionary and/or the classics as reference(s) for greetings and vocabulary. 

If that's the language they spoke between -500 and 0, then yes.

[AIEND]

13 分钟前，斯坦` 说：

那么名字是错误的。 就像建筑物名称是用古希腊语写的一样。 

It's best to refer to terra magna, that mod uses nouns in Old Chinese.

[Stan`]

Too late now. For Alpha 27.

 

[AIEND]

20 分钟前，斯坦` 说：

现在太晚了。 对于阿尔法 27。

 

Will A27 join Xiongnu? For other problems in the Han Dynasty of A26, I will use the "mirror" to solve some of them.

[Stan`]

13 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Will A27 join Xiongnu

Depends if we can fix all the flaws of their current gameplay through code

 

[maroder]

4 hours ago, Stan` said:

4 hours ago, AIEND said:

2. I don't know why the citizen soldier swordsman was deleted, I thought it should be a combination of swordsman and JI.

Discussion should be there but I can't find specifics @borg- @maroder [Differential] D4713 [balance] Han unit roster restructure (wildfiregames.com)

Yes, it was a decision of gameplay over historical accuracy. If they also had the swordman, they would have had basically every type of unit which would make them extremely strong as they could easily counter everything.

If we see that they are not op in a26 we can see if we can integrate the swordsman, but I think they would need some kind of different nerf to balance out such a huge unit roster. (right now they also have a strong eco and siege unit availability so it would have just been too much imo)

 

[AIEND]

1 小时前，maroder 说：

是的，这是游戏玩法而非历史准确性的决定。 如果他们还有剑士的话，基本上每一种都能让他们变得非常强大的单位，他们可以轻松应对一切。

如果我们看到他们在 a26 中不可用，我们可以看看我们是否可以整合剑客，但我认为他们需要某种不同的 nerf 来平衡如此庞大的单位名单。 （现在他们也有强大的生态和攻城单位可用性，所以它只是太多了imo）

 

If you have to remove one, you can remove the spearman, and Huben can also be replaced by Ji instead of the spearman.

[AIEND]

Very interesting thing, Chinese players I know started discussing which dialects other than Mandarin can be used to dub Han Dynasty units, I think I can do a few mods for this.

[Lion.Kanzen]

17 hours ago, AIEND said:

Very interesting thing, Chinese players I know started discussing which dialects other than Mandarin can be used to dub Han Dynasty units, I think I can do a few mods for this.

That's good news. I hope that the Chinese community of 0 AD will grow and continue to grow.

[AIEND]

I forgot whether I said before, the Chinese don't actually use shields and spears at the same time, so the MaoBing (spearmen) of the Han army in the game does not exist in the history.

[Stan`]

57 minutes ago, AIEND said:

I forgot whether I said before, the Chinese don't actually use shields and spears at the same time, so the MaoBing (spearmen) of the Han army in the game does not exist in the history.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone can you fix it ?

[AIEND]

2 小时前，Stan` 说：

@wowgetoffyourcellphone 你能修好它吗？

This is also the reason why I emphasized keeping the swordsman before, because in the battle, the Chinese are accustomed to let the soldiers with swords stand in the first row with their shields, and the soldiers with spears and halberds stand behind the swordsmen. If the swordsmen were removed, the Han army would have no soldiers with shields.   

Edited September 3, 2022 by AIEND

[AIEND]

There is one more question, I was preparing to dub, but found that in the list of economic-related voices, the voices for collecting fruit, wood, stone, and metal are all one sentence, which makes us feel embarrassed, because there is no general-purpose " to collect" verbs to refer to so many different kinds of resources.

[hyperion]

8 minutes ago, AIEND said:

There is one more question, I was preparing to dub, but found that in the list of economic-related voices, the voices for collecting fruit, wood, stone, and metal are all one sentence, which makes us feel embarrassed, because there is no general-purpose " to collect" verbs to refer to so many different kinds of resources.

Maybe use "go to work on resources" or similar for now even if a somewhat poor fit, so there is a slim chance it makes it into a26 still and file a bug on trac with the commands needed to cover Chinese properly.

[Gurken Khan]

I didn't find the list, but isn't there also something like "I will obey"?

[AIEND]

18分钟前，古尔肯汗说：

我没有找到清单，但不是还有“我会服从”之类的吗？

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Audio_Voice_List

Action             	                    – English
order_build             	            – I will build.
order_walk                                  - I will walk.
order_repair                                - I will repair.
order_attack                                - I will attack! I will go out against them! I will march! I will retreat! Battle cry.
order_gather                                - I will gather. I will fish. I will hunt. I will work land. I will herd.
order_guard                                 - I will guard.
order_garrison                              - I will garrison.
order_patrol                                - I will patrol.
order_trade                                 - I will trade.
order_heal                                  - I will heal.
select             	                    – What is it? My lord?

This is the list. I dubbed the Chinese voice based on the content of the English voice.

[AIEND]

2 小时前，AIEND 说：

这也是我之前强调留剑士的原因，因为在战斗中，中国人习惯让持剑的士兵持盾站在第一排，持枪的士兵站在剑士的身后。 如果剑士被撤掉，汉军就没有带盾的士兵了。 

However, according to the materials I just found, there is actually another way, which is to let JiShou wear a shield, because in the Han Dynasty and earlier, the Chinese had two ways to use Ji, one is to use a shorter halberd. Shields are used, one is the longer Ji without a shield, and the images of the two can be seen on the lines of some pre-Han bronzes.
If you feel that the current data of Han soldiers are too unique and inconvenient to adjust, I suggest that you can change the P1 melee soldiers from Mao to Ji, and let the soldiers holding halberds hold shields. The data does not need to be different from that of ordinary spearmen. Changed the original P2 Ji to a swordsman, and changed the P3 HuBen at the Imperial Academy to a pikemen without a shield.

[AIEND]

Although I hope that the ships of the Han Dynasty can be remade, I don’t know if it’s too late, and the image restoration of early Chinese ships is not very good, and the same is true for Chinese ballistas, so I will find someone to draw a sketch that conforms to the basic historical facts. , to be reworked in the next alpha request.
But right now, I think at least remove this weird ship from the game, I have absolutely no idea what it is, or replace it with a fire ship.

 

[AIEND]

Another problem is that I found that foreigners' understanding of China often comes from the coastal South China in the past 100 years, and the Han Dynasty we want to make is actually a country with North China as its core. At that time, the population of North China accounted for the whole country. 80% of the total population, while only 20% in southern China.
Therefore, no matter the map or the architectural style, the main reference aspect should be North China in that era.
The content currently produced is very insufficient in awareness of this, leading to some problems, I will give a few examples:
1. The Han Dynasty did not use bamboo to build boats. Fishing boats should be wooden boats with swaying oars.
2. The Han Dynasty did not use bamboo to build walls or other buildings, but used wood, rammed earth and stone.
3. The main crops of the Han Dynasty were not rice, but wheat, millet, panicum miliaceum.
4. The main livestock in the Han Dynasty were cattle, pigs, and sheep, of which cattle were divided into buffalo and cattle, both of which can be used to pull plows, but generally cattle pull carts, and it should be noted that neither should appear in the corral In China, because the Han Dynasty positioned cattle as farm animals and prohibited slaughtering, Chinese pigs are black pigs that look a lot like wild boars but have no tusks, and goats are not much different from today's goats.

[Stan`]

We cannot change any templates strings any more nor any user facing strings (today was an exception) else translators won't have time to finish for the september release. We are already six months late which means lower morale and motivation so I will not make it longer.

[AIEND]

7 分钟前，斯坦` 说：

我们不能再更改任何模板字符串，也不能更改任何面向用户的字符串（今天是个例外），否则翻译人员将没有时间完成 9 月版本。 我们已经迟到了六个月，这意味着士气和动力下降，所以我不会再拖延了。

I hope these comments can be included in the plan, I know they should be addressed in Alpha 27.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, AIEND said:

no matter the map or the architectural style, the main reference aspect should

the maps for now it is easier to adapt subtropical biomes as we don't have everything that is needed to create maps of North China.

How is North China at the biome level?