[Gameplay A26] Hyrcanian Cavalry balancing - patch and mod (balancing advisors)

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I guys I made a quick mod to make these cavalry more interesting.

Currently, they are basically bad, with much less dps and armor than swordcav.

firstly: All axecav get +1 pierce, swordcav hack dps, a little less crush dps, and slower repeat time for differentiation (could be better for quickly dealing damage)

This mod makes the hyrcanian cav a unique raiding unit, with a cost profile similar to skiritai commandos, only instead of the armor increase of training at rank 3, they receive a speed increase.

They also drop more loot, have more hp.

I kept acceleration the same as all melee cav.

hyrcanian stats in the mod and patch: 160hp, 3 hack armor, 2 pierce armor, 100 food, 40 wood, 35 metal, 18.7 hack, 5 crush per 1.5 seconds, 20 m/s walk speed.

also 22 second train time.

 

To apply this mod, add it to your mods folder in application support (Application\ Support/0ad/mods/ ).

I would love it if balancing people gave me feedback, preferably with some in game testing.

axecav_overhaul_mod_v0.1.3.zip

Edited June 3, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce
update mod version

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Ok it has been raised to my attention that these are busted XD.

Here are changes for version 0.1.2:

Axe cav parent -1 pierce, reverting the +1 pierce armor increase, hyrcanian cav now have 3 hack 2 pierce.

Health bonus for rank 3 is removed, reverting HP back to rank 1 level (160).

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

OK, after testing, this last version is pretty ideal. They are weak units with lots of hack and a little crush, they move quite fast but it doesn't look unnatural. They lose (close) to spearcav with a25 values, lose to spearmen. They beat javelin cav but not by much, especially considering the cost.

They can break palisades with ease and deal lots of damage to unattended eco, but they fall fairly quickly to building arrows.

This unit will not make pers OP like carth swordcav made carthage OP, but rather provide a unique and fun tool to punish undefended eco.

@chrstgtr @ValihrAnt @BreakfastBurrito_007  @Dizaka @Philip the Swaggerless @Edwarf

if people like it, I could make a patch really quick, although it is a bit of a hack job.

Edited May 30, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Cool! I tried out the mod and the unit seems useful, formidable, but also counterable in a variety of ways!

I think this would be a nice change for hyrcanian cavalry.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

ok made a patch just like the mod above.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4674

[LetswaveaBook]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

ok made a patch just like the mod above.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4674

Congratulations on making your first differential. I think it is reasonable to change Hyrcanian cavalry.

However I see a disadvantage of the proposed patch. The unit in game currently uses 3 different art models for rank 1, rank 2 and rank 3. In your patch only 1 art model will be used in game. So regardless of whether it is a balance improvement, for me it seems a downgrade from an artistic point of view.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 minute ago, LetswaveaBook said:

However I see a disadvantage of the proposed patch. The unit in game currently uses 3 different art models for rank 1, rank 2 and rank 3. In your patch only 1 art model will be used in game. So regardless of whether it is a balance improvement, for me it seems a downgrade from an artistic point of view.

yes, you are right. But at least they may now make an appearance on the battlefield. Thoughts on balance?

[LetswaveaBook]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Thoughts on balance?

My idea would be to reduce the experience to promote to rank 2 to 50. That means that if you put the unit in a barracks/stable for 50 seconds, you have a unit that is better than the sword cavalry in combat and has the crush damage to take out buildings.

That would also give people a chance to think about the experience gain that barracks and stable provide. So it introduces a new way of thinking.

Also I think they could benefit from having +1 hack armor

Edited May 31, 2022 by LetswaveaBook

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@LetswaveaBook, I was talking about the mod/patch being balanced. What I envisioned in the above was sort of a glass cannon raiding unit. It is as unique as skiritai are for sparta.

[LetswaveaBook]

22 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I was talking about the mod/patch being balanced. What I envisioned in the above was sort of a glass cannon raiding unit. It is as unique as skiritai are for sparta.

I would suppose that it would be fairly balanced. Against (ranged) units it deals about 55% more damage than sword cavalry, but it has -2 pierce armor. So that would mean it would deal about 1,55*-0.9^2=1.26 times as much damage before dying (or losing a set amount of HP) against range units while it costs +25 metal. Using that same method, we would expect mercenary swordsmen to deal 1.2*1.25/0.9=1.67 times as much damage before dying (compared to a CS sword cav). The proposed axe cav moves faster than the sword cavalry and is better at eliminating buildings, but it has the disadvantage that it can't serve that well as a meat shield and it can't promote. Furthermore, since it is a rank 3 cavalry unit, your opponents units will promote fairly quickly when they are fighting against it.

So I would suppose it is balanced better than A25 sword merc cav.

[Fabius]

I like the idea, go for it  

[real_tabasco_sauce]

ok everyone, new version of the mod (i expect this to be the last version):

In this version, the base crush dps (for all axe cav) was returned to the pre-existing rate.

axecav_overhaul_mod_v0.1.3.zip

Edited June 2, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

go crazy:

This is option 2 in the poll.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4683

Edited June 3, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

if I could get like 4 to 6 more votes here that would be great!

Edited June 4, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Yekaterina]

@real_tabasco_sauce what is it about the axe cav that made you want to change it? Currently I find them quite handy as a fast moving siege option (to capture garrisoned enemy CC with pure cavalry)  and somewhat decent as a frontline meatshield against enemy infantry. 

Your version of the axe cavalry does the same hack damage as a champion swordsman infantry, which might be problematic given they have siege capabilities, although your idea is interesting. 

A suggestion: let Persians have a sword cavalry and Hyrcanian Axe cavalry at the same time, so the players get a choice. (similar to Mauryan champion swordsman vs Yoddha)

[chrstgtr]

46 minutes ago, Sevda said:

A suggestion: let Persians have a sword cavalry and Hyrcanian Axe cavalry at the same time, so the players get a choice. (similar to Mauryan champion swordsman vs Yoddha)

This should happen regardless. Persia was always meant to be a “cav” civ with the full array of options. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

55 minutes ago, Sevda said:

what is it about the axe cav that made you want to change it? Currently I find them quite handy as a fast moving siege option (to capture garrisoned enemy CC with pure cavalry) 

Well they are basically one of the worst units in the game at the moment. You need like 40+ axe cav to chop down the enemy CC as is. Usually this is trolling. They do much less hack damage than swords and they are much weaker. The mobile siege without any other skills (other than antiram) makes a25 axecav rather gimmicky. In contrast, the axecav I modded make more sense, they are an elite raiding unit, minimally armored but very fast.

55 minutes ago, Sevda said:

somewhat decent as a frontline meatshield against enemy infantry.

this doesn't make sense, since they are so weak. Currently, just use spearcav as they have more armor, don't cost metal.

55 minutes ago, Sevda said:

Your version of the axe cavalry does the same hack damage as a champion swordsman infantry

make note of the 1.5 second attack repeat time (compared to 0.75 for swords). They do ~5 hack/second less than champ swordsman and ~8 less then champ swordcav.

Crucially: hyrcanian cav hack damage per second (dps) is the same as rank three citizen soldier swordcav, but they also get some crush damage. This is the main difference that makes them not nearly as strong as swordcavs: axe cav armor: 3 hack 2 pierce;  swordcav armor: 3 hack 4 pierce. At rank two, swordcav are 4 and 5 (explaining in part why merc cav are so OP)

what this amounts to is that the axe cav in my mod are not able to tank damage like swordcav: if you want to use them well, you will use their speed to your advantage and carefully choose fights you can survive.

As for the crush values, I have them set exactly as they were for the axe cav template. Hyrcanian cav (rank 3 axecav) get a damage increase for crush just like all rank 3 melee units. This bonus brings crush up to 5.0, but I am a little flexible on the crush values. If they are OP in release candidates, then it will be easy to lower the value a little.

@Sevda I encourage you to try downloading the mod. You seem to have made up your mind without testing. In fact, I only have had 4 downloads of the mod.

Edited June 5, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

This should happen regardless. Persia was always meant to be a “cav” civ with the full array of options. 

im fine with this. It is just sad to see super weak units, especially the unique ones. Thats really why I made this mod, to make them interesting and relevant to gameplay.

@chrstgtr you voted yet or no? I would like 10 or so.

Edited June 5, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

5 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

im fine with this. It is just sad to see super weak units, especially the unique ones. Thats really why I made this mod, to make them interesting and relevant to gameplay.

@chrstgtr you voted yet or no? I would like 10 or so.

I haven't had a chance to play a game with the mod. I'll abstain until I get a chance to play

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I haven't had a chance to play a game with the mod. I'll abstain until I get a chance to play

yeah it would be great if we could organize a high level 1v1 with the mod.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Ok, the 2v2 played today seemed to go quite well with @LetswaveaBook,@BreakfastBurrito_007, and @Sevda and I.

here is the replay. You will need the mod to watch the replay

metadata.jsoncommands.txt

Edited June 5, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

This is just a reminder to please vote in the poll I attached, especially if you have downloaded the mod! If you don't want to set up a lobby game with the mod, you also have the option of reviewing the replay I shared above.

There are only 6 votes in right now, so go ahead and vote!

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Any more votes? 9 people have the mod but only 7 vote...

Anyone here can vote.

[chrstgtr]

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea. I like the idea of a roving siege unit that can be a CC killer.

 

But I'm really unsure if the values are right--in particular, I am concerned it can't be countered by other cav. But I'd like to test it out in a game if anyone else is willing. 

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

But I'm really unsure if the values are right--in particular, I am concerned it can't be countered by other cav. But I'd like to test it out in a game if anyone else is willing. 

In practice, It is countered mainly by ranged units, because ranged units kill them much faster than swordcav for example. In other words, they cannot tank damage. If spearcav trap them, then they are done for (with a26 spearcav). I have to finish my final exam today, but maybe I could host a couple games tonight using the mod (I am in GMT - 7).

If you have the mod, you can at least look at the replay I included.

Edited June 9, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce