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Capture Ele for Siege in P2


chrstgtr
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There has been a lot of talk about how we can make p2 more active. Separately, there has also been talk about introducing siege in p2. Also separately, there has been some discussion about allowing players to capture wild ele. 

I think it would be nice to allow players to capture wild ele in p2 to use those ele as siege. This obviously wouldn't be applicable on every map (or even every civ), but this would be a nice game feature that would add additional layers to the game (i.e., I will save ele for p2 to do siege attack vs. I will use ele early as hunting eco boost; I need to kill ele, so enemy doesn't get siege in p2) that aren't present now and would also make for possible knockout blows in p2. To balance this, I would make wild ele have less armour and be essentially naked

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I like this.

I remember in one of the alphas you could lure eles to an enemy cc and suicide the luring unit.  Then come by with a fast moving unit and have the CC arrows hit the elephants due to physics.  In effect, p1 gaia eles killing enemy CC's that aggroed them.  Was cool. 

Would be nice to have civs with a dynamic similar to this in P2 (Seleucids, Mauryas, and Kushites come into mind).

Edited by Dizaka
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20 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

but this would be a nice game feature that would add additional layers to the game (i.e., I will save ele for p2 to do siege attack vs. I will use ele early as hunting eco boost; I need to kill ele, so enemy doesn't get siege in p2) that aren't present now and would also make for possible knockout blows in p2. To balance this, I would make wild ele have less armour and be essentially naked

honestly, this is all very interesting. but I can imagine players discussing over biomes based on their civ. also, it seems like it could be somehow unintuitive an incoherent, depending on how it's implemented. how would do make it possible to do it, for players with the right civ?

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1 hour ago, alre said:

honestly, this is all very interesting. but I can imagine players discussing over biomes based on their civ.

Players already discuss civs based on biomes.  I wouldn't be surprised if hosts have selected biomes based on civs.

Can't do carthage merc rush on fauna-plentiful maps as by min 5-6 people already have a lot of cav.

Mauryas generally best for fauna maps.  Next come Rome/Macedonians.

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2 hours ago, alre said:

honestly, this is all very interesting. but I can imagine players discussing over biomes based on their civ. also, it seems like it could be somehow unintuitive an incoherent, depending on how it's implemented. how would do make it possible to do it, for players with the right civ?

What @Dizaka said. Also, many games are played on random, and it doesn't really matter that much so long as it is fair (i.e., everyone can choose an ele capturing civ just the same way that everyone can currently choose ptol on for low wood maps). 

Also, we already have capturing mechanics for relics and previously had capturing mechanics for siege (in a23 and before). I don't think it would be too difficult to co-opt what already exists or to pick up a slightly new mechanic.

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On 30/11/2021 at 11:42 AM, chrstgtr said:

There has been a lot of talk about how we can make p2 more active. Separately, there has also been talk about introducing siege in p2. Also separately, there has been some discussion about allowing players to capture wild ele. 

I think it would be nice to allow players to capture wild ele in p2 to use those ele as siege. This obviously wouldn't be applicable on every map (or even every civ), but this would be a nice game feature that would add additional layers to the game (i.e., I will save ele for p2 to do siege attack vs. I will use ele early as hunting eco boost; I need to kill ele, so enemy doesn't get siege in p2) that aren't present now and would also make for possible knockout blows in p2. To balance this, I would make wild ele have less armour and be essentially naked

First of all, which issue tries this to solve and does it solve it? Knock out blows are very possible in 1v1s, but not so much in team games.  It is true that in 1v1s dealing a know out blow against an equally skilled player is difficult, but that is because the opposing army is as strong as yours. For 1v1s, you do not need siege to deal knock out blows. The wild elephants do have mediocre stats, so it is not very helpful. So that lack of knock out blows is more a TG issue. So why does this issue mainly appear in TGs?

In team games, players can freely tribute resources to a weaker player which allows the weaker player to get have an easier time getting back in the game. I think that could be a major culprit for stopping knock out blows in TGs.

So I do not have any hopes that this will solve some issues, but it would neither harm if it were introduced.

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2 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

First of all, which issue tries this to solve and does it solve it? Knock out blows are very possible in 1v1s, but not so much in team games.  It is true that in 1v1s dealing a know out blow against an equally skilled player is difficult, but that is because the opposing army is as strong as yours. For 1v1s, you do not need siege to deal knock out blows. The wild elephants do have mediocre stats, so it is not very helpful. So that lack of knock out blows is more a TG issue. So why does this issue mainly appear in TGs?

In team games, players can freely tribute resources to a weaker player which allows the weaker player to get have an easier time getting back in the game. I think that could be a major culprit for stopping knock out blows in TGs.

So I do not have any hopes that this will solve some issues, but it would neither harm if it were introduced.

All the issues I referenced above (desire for p2 activity, desire to make ele capturable, and desire for p2 siege). The only less obvious one is making p2 more active. If you can get siege and actually finish someone in p2 then that will make p2 more active.
 

Just because knock out blows are possible that doesn’t mean they are likely. In fact they’re quite rare and even when a “knock out” does occur it is after one player has suffered large losses that can’t be made up for and that player only loses 5-10 minutes later when the attacker finally goes p3 and gets siege. Sometimes, a good initial rush is offset by the initial cost of investing in the rush and defender can survive that first push. Introducing siege in p1/p2 solves that.
 

Even if Gaia ele are weak, they would obviously be very strong if the total number of units is low (I.e. after a rush that kills most units). 

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Knock out blows are only consistently possible with Carthage Merc cav in team games.  At most I've knocked out 3/4 enemy players (of which 2 is  Rauls as Ptol) using merc cab.

Additionally, I've been penalized and knocked out for using merc cav as there is a handful of players who counter it well.

Edited by Dizaka
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