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Ships!


Gurken Khan
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I suggest we only increase the arrow of ships when it is garrisoned by ranged units. If it is garrisoned by melee units or siege or elephants then its arrow count does not increase. Let the default arrow count be 0 so you got to garrison it with ranged units to make the ship any good. 

We can give ships a negative bonus against units so that it cannot deny eco near the beach completely. 

Furthermore we might limit ships to only attack other ships, as that would make more sense. Right now a ship next to a dock at Sicilly can destroy Carthaginian buildings on the opposite side of the Meditarranean Sea, which is preposterous! It makes  naval maps a race to build the first dock and go 2 P2 first so that you can use ships to deny the eco of other players, which is not fun. 

Furthermore, Carthaginian archers can shoot down ships in a Roman port... ships shouldn't be so susceptible to arrow fire, right? Perhaps we can make ship garrisons similar to wall garrisons where the units inside are susceptible but not the wooden bit of the ship. 

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3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Right now a ship next to a dock at Sicilly can destroy Carthaginian buildings on the opposite side of the Meditarranean Sea, which is preposterous!

The Mediterranean Sea in 'Mediterranean' is a joke. 'Nice' that the map goes up to the polar region and includes the British Isles etc., but you can't access large portions of the Mediterranean with ships, water straights like at Gibraltar are not passable... In short, that shallow puddle can't be an argument for anything imho.

 

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

I suggest we only increase the arrow of ships when it is garrisoned by ranged units.

 

I support this idea. I don't know about the other ideas for nerfing though. AFAIK the ships' weapons were used to a good degree against enemies' deck crews, so it would make sense that they can also target units at land. Finally I think that making the ships less susceptible to arrows is a bit contradictory when the complaint is that one can't get rid of ships without own ships.

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4 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Perhaps we can make ship garrisons similar to wall garrisons where the units inside are susceptible but not the wooden bit of the ship. 

I support this idea very much. However, how should ships fight other ships?

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Hello,

We need to make the naval games more interesting and fair.

Easy balance and more fun naval. 

Several adjustments together :

1-Ships no longer fire arrows without garnison. Force people to garnison some guys with adjustement 2. Less spam boat.

2-Max 5 arrows but boost garnison(now it 10 units). It a nerf of boat dammage but more dommage to orther ships to compensate(maybe damage multiplier only vs boat? X2 or X3 let's see? ). This is to help the noobs who do not know sea battles, it is so unfair for newbies they have no chance of winning a sea battle and reduce the dammage against units on land.The boat should not be a castle that moves on the water.

3-We cheat on the hitbox of boats, reduce it. For an artificially better maneuver and less annoying. Easier to garrison troops as well.

@Yekaterinawhat do you think about this easy proposition? 

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For later with more development. Not easy to implement cuz it creates 'usable land" or by defaut a garnison system like stone wall.

Change the naval battle system. this is an unusual idea.

A trained military ship does not belong to you, it is an object. You can only control it if you assign a crew to it (1 units is enough for playability). All player can assign crew. So if your crew die, orther player can come control the ship if he want (or just control ship then sabotage the boat (delete)). The boat once emptied of its crew belongs to no one.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyone can take control of it, it is a terrain object in the service of the crew. Would give an interesting axis if the "boarding" and "spurs" were to appear one day.

The ships serve only as a carrier if not more than 1 crew member (the unit that allows you to have control of the boat). The units are garrisoned like garnison on a wall, they can attack if they are ranged units. Siege weapons included. 

 If you want to go further it would be good to be able to move your units on the deck of the boat. If two boats are stuck we right click on the boat so that the units pass.

In this way it would be necessary that the boats could not be destroyed only by flaming arrows, rocks, deliberate suppression of the crew (sabotage) or iberian boats. Single shots would do absolutely no damage to ships. If you want to destroy the boat you will have to stick to the other boat and ungarnison (or right click to move according to the system used) on the boat in question. The ideal would be to be able to move your units on the deck of the boat.
To be able to make boats in shipyards on land and then push them to the sea.

Image you can make a bridge cuz 2 or 3 ships stucked..can be fun.

:)
 


 

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29 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

rams?

The arrows are just due to the units garrisoned. The mechanical part of the ship can ram each other. 

this proposition poses one big problem, which is that many civs don't have ramming vessels.

Also, I don't know how satisfactory could be a combat system for 0AD ships that revolves completely around ramming. Not to mention the problem of implementing it.

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Thank you Dakara for your propositions. I think I can make a mod for this and you can play against an AI using the mod and tell me what you think. 

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

Ships no longer fire arrows without garnison. Force people to garnison some guys with adjustement 2. Less spam boat.

I agree with this. Easy to make. 

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

2-Max 5 arrows but boost garnison(now it 10 units). It a nerf of boat dammage but more dommage to orther ships to compensate(maybe damage multiplier only vs boat? X2 or X3 let's see? ). This is to help the noobs who do not know sea battles, it is so unfair for newbies they have no chance of winning a sea battle and reduce the dammage against units on land.The boat should not be a castle that moves on the water.

I can give the ships x3 or x5 damage against other ships but maybe a x0.5 multiplier for land units, or even ban them from attacking land units completely. 

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

We cheat on the hitbox of boats, reduce it. For an artificially better maneuver and less annoying. Easier to garrison troops as well.

I am not sure what you mean by this. 

 

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I must clarify the mechanic of garrisoning on walls: instead of putting units inside a structure, the wall defines some garrison points near it, and the 'garrisoned' units stand on their garrison points completely unprotected. Then the wall offers an aura that increases the pierce resistance of garrisoned units, which makes them harder to kill. 

This isn't so difficult to apply to ships but it will look quite strange when you have 30 units garrisoned in it... 

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8 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I must clarify the mechanic of garrisoning on walls: instead of putting units inside a structure, the wall defines some garrison points near it, and the 'garrisoned' units stand on their garrison points completely unprotected. Then the wall offers an aura that increases the pierce resistance of garrisoned units, which makes them harder to kill. 

This isn't so difficult to apply to ships but it will look quite strange when you have 30 units garrisoned in it... 

that's it. very nice.

of course a limit is necessary, like 5 spots for a trireme, 10-15 for a quinquireme. if a siege engine is to be considered too, that would make it a lot more interesting, but I don't know if it's currently doable.

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I gave the ship 6.7 crush attack (previously it was 35 pierce!), 3x bonus against other ships, 0.125x bonus against buildings. I feel like they are still too weak against other ships and maybe a little bit overnerfed. 

Each ship has 35 pierce armour now, so they are quite invulnerable against ranged units. Since most infantry and cavalry have quite high crush armour the ships can't kill land units as easily now, but can hurt them a little. 

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