Mauryas are OP not because of Archers.

[Dizaka]

Currently, Mauryas are the sole top-of-the-pack civ for any map.  Additionally, Mauryas are extremely competitive in no-archer games (using only spearmen).

Why is this?  It is the following four reasons:

• mobile resource depot (please do not gimp this)  [Note:  If you aren't using the elephant to guard a unit to follow you are using the elephant wrong.]
• phase 2 elephant stable that builds in p3 allowing for fast eles once in p3
• 75 wood houses (makes fertility festival extremely strong - when quietly booming if you can't get 100 pop with Mauryas at min 6 you aren't maximizing Mauryas advantages)
• priest hero (-20% cost and -50% research time for technologies)

Just performing damage-balancing WILL NOT weaken Mauryas.  Actually, I think it will honestly strengthen them.

The solutions that I believe will address Mauryas as a top civ will be:

• mobile resource depots for all civs
• civs having 2-types of houses (75 (changed to 80/90) & 150 wood ones - would enable for scouting and seeing if enemy is going for a fertility boom which can be countered with rushing)
• certain civs (britons/iberians/gauls/spartans) with phase 2 access to arsenal/rams whereas, to add uniqueness, make Macedonians have phase 2 access to siege tower (There's mods available for this.  Siege towers are ~300 metal so building them prevents p3 likely). 
• rams being able to hit units and farms (Eles are able to.  Additionally, a ram could hit a person in RL.  Why not IG?)

 

 

Note:  Just because Mauryas are OP not b/c of archers does not mean there shouldn't be some balancing done as there is an issue with archers in relation to skirmishers/slingers.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[Lion.Kanzen]

I don't know why their infantry is OP, they wear almost no armor.

[Player of 0AD]

Alternative Suggestions:

- remove the free starting elephant
- double production speed of women in big houses (10 pop houses)

- remove the 10% pop bonus, also from persians - it's too much

[Dizaka]

Their infantry is standard spearmen.  All spearmen have the same stats.  I think that is fine.

Additionally, when you add swordsmen to the mix you mow through infantry fairly easily.

[Player of 0AD]

5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I don't know why their infantry is OP, they wear almost no armor.

Because they have maidens. Don't mess with them ; )

[Dizaka]

  

21 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

- remove the free starting elephant

  Personally not happy about this one ;/.  I think as long as Mauryas have it in p1 whereas other civs can get it in p2 and/or build one in p1 it still gives Mauryas uniqueness.

21 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

- double production speed of women in big houses (10 pop houses)

  This is an idea I like.

21 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

- remove the 10% pop bonus, also from persians - it's too much

Another idea I'm not too happy about.  I'm generally against ideas that make every civ the same.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Because they have maidens. Don't mess with them ; )

I  experiment with them against the Spartans, hahaha.

 

The poison idea was mine.

[Lion.Kanzen]

12 minutes ago, Dizaka said:

Their infantry is standard spearmen.  All spearmen have the same stats.  I think that is fine.

Additionally, when you add swordsmen to the mix you mow through infantry fairly easily.

It's okay at the beginning not the whole the match.

[Dizaka]

16 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It's okay at the beginning not the whole the match.

It's sort of like that right now.  Spartans have "The Agoge" upgrade.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[alre]

elephants are being nerfed, right? 

[Dizaka]

If they nerf elephants then making defensive structures weaker and palisades less impactful should be also considered.  Otherwise, it's going to be really long and unenjoyable games.  Currently, you can only push with eles.  With catapults not doing AOE and being snipeable by archers eles are the only solution tbh.

[Dizaka]

.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[LetswaveaBook]

37 minutes ago, alre said:

elephants are being nerfed, right? 

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/25721

Also I did some 11 minute boom tests and I compared my Seleucid vs maurya boom. Maurya has of course the advantage, but it was not as large as I expected. I don't think there is one thing that makes Maurya OP, but there are several conveniences that all add up.

Anyways, Ptolemies might be as dangerous in 1v1s.

Edited June 12, 2021 by LetswaveaBook
needed to add in 1v1s

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Dizaka said:

mobile resource depots for all civs

Seriously?

[Dizaka]

11 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Seriously?

There's a risk-reward to this.  With more civs having this mechanic then more people learn about it and learn to counter it.  Currently, the problem is no-one really counters it as they are unaware of the benefits it provides.

The reward is access to randomly-spawned resources.

The risk is that the enemy may likely scout it and end it quickly.  The more civs have access to mobile resource depots the less of an advantage it poses. 

Currently, people don't scout and/or place scout towers near critical resources.  The only reason scout towers aren't utilized near critical resources is b/c only 1 civ has that advantage and 80% of players don't scout that while 70% of players do not utilize that.  However, mobile resource depots for Mauryas are a huge advantage for them.  If more civilization have this then scout towers have more utility and map control is more important beyond just your zone of influence.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[ValihrAnt]

2 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

Alternative Suggestions:

- remove the free starting elephant

I'd much prefer to give other civs bonuses rather than remove existing unique bonuses. 

I do agree that currently the Mauryas only have 1 valid hero choice but that's something to be worked on for the future

I guess another thing, I find it interesting how fertility festival seems to be thought of as a good early boom option. Maybe I haven't been able to utilise it to its full pote tial but I only really find it useful in late game 1v1 situations where you need to add more farms while continuing nonstop soldier production. Otherwise it just feels worse than a basic boom with barracks. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

56 minutes ago, Dizaka said:

There's a risk-reward to this.  With more civs having this mechanic then more people learn about it and learn to counter it.  Currently, the problem is no-one really counters it as they are unaware of the benefits it provides.

Spear and lancer.

 

Why mobility. those cavalries They are fast and can come in and out fast, well it can give a bonus.

[Dizaka]

  

56 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

I'd much prefer to give other civs bonuses rather than remove existing unique bonuses. 

  Woohoooo

56 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

I do agree that currently the Mauryas only have 1 valid hero choice but that's something to be worked on for the future

  I'd argue that Mauryas have 2 useful heroes.  The first one, if utilized, is only utlized to hari-kari.  It is the "temple upgrade hero" who is on a chariot.  He makes temples and temple upgrades cheaper.  It also stack with another Maurya player bonus.  This means that a 1k food upgrade is reduced to 200 food.  Depending on strategy, this hero can be built first.

56 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

I guess another thing, I find it interesting how fertility festival seems to be thought of as a good early boom option. Maybe I haven't been able to utilise it to its full pote tial but I only really find it useful in late game 1v1 situations where you need to add more farms while continuing nonstop soldier production. Otherwise it just feels worse than a basic boom with barracks. 

Fertility festival, if used to boom, should be initiated in the first 2-3 mins of gameplay.  Initially, it's a handicap.  At mins 8/9/10/11/12 it is a HUGE boost (Esp with small houses).  Later it makes no difference.  It basically handicaps you for first 3-4 mins after upgrade.  Then substantially helps.

 

Additionally, if you're bogged down fighting a border as a border, in early game, it may be helpful to fertility festival to quickly build up population.  Rauls has done this as have other players.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

I completely agree with OP , the healer unit coupled with a few more healers basically make loincloth wearing indians into supermen. THe mobile elephant makes it so they can venture into enemy territory and gather resources without arousing suspicion. The single fact that they have both spearmen and swordsmen in addition to their infamous roster makes them,much like the persians a bloated civ that has an easy answer to everything. Meanwhile poor macedon has to reach phase 3 to get answers to rams that cost METAL!!

[Dizaka]

9 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

I completely agree with OP , the healer unit coupled with a few more healers basically make loincloth wearing indians into supermen. 

The utility in that hero, that I find, is when garrisoned inside structures to impact upgrade speed/costs.  The value that hero gives is substantial enough that I rarely put him into the front line unless there are no upgrades left.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[chrstgtr]

48 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

I guess another thing, I find it interesting how fertility festival seems to be thought of as a good early boom option. Maybe I haven't been able to utilise it to its full pote tial but I only really find it useful in late game 1v1 situations where you need to add more farms while continuing nonstop soldier production. Otherwise it just feels worse than a basic boom with barracks. 

It can be used well to boom. It can be researched tech early to give a ton of women but it's risky on most maps. The early research route is particularly helpful on women elephant maps where food is plentiful and wood is low. It can also be used mid boom around 80 pop. In this scenario, you begin to train men from the CC a little earlier than normal to fight off rushes and then train one or two large groups of women from houses to speed up your boom. 

[Dizaka]

  

6 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

It can be researched tech early to give a ton of women but it's risky on most maps.

  Risky vs certain players.  Not really risky in a25 as few people bother rushing.

6 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

The early research route is particularly helpful on women elephant maps where food is plentiful and wood is low.

Also, depending on which food you take it is risky if it is all women.  Sometimes, if the food is up front close to enemies, it is just better to put infantry (archers/spearmen) gathering the food even if women have a bonus.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dizaka

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

Alternative Suggestions:

- remove the free starting elephant

This one has been discussed ad nauseam on the forums. Maurya was bad in 23 even though they had a worker ele that was more useful than the worker ele in a24. Thus, it was the other changes that occured (i.e., archers and ele buffs) that made Maurya OP in a24. It makes much more sense to use to use their two benchmarks to conclude that these other changes should be reversed a bit to find a happy medium between a23 and a24. We should not just accept the changes of a24 and then look for other creative solutions to make Maurya appropriately balanced. This later approach is exactly what was done--archers and ele were nerfed for a25. We also should not eliminate unique civ features, which make the game more fun. Instead we should add other unique features to other civs that are equally useful. 

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, ValihrAnt said:

I do agree that currently the Mauryas only have 1 valid hero choice but that's something to be worked on for the future

And who is this hero?

[Yekaterina]

A problem with the Mauryas roster is their Visha Kanya. These champions strengthens the army but historically these were unarmed poison girls who assassinate leaders of the opposition instead of fielding themselves in massive hand-to-hand combat. If we remove these then Maurya civ would be more historically accurate and less OP.