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very fast change: add spearcav to sele for a25


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Seleucid cavalry are very awkward to use since they don't have any melee CS cavalry. If archer cavalry (presumably along with archers) are going to get nerfed in a25, then I feel the time is right to give seleucids a spearcav unit.

The way I understand it,@wowgetoffyourcellphone said that there is artwork ready to use for sele spear cav.

I feel it is a good opportunity for a fast change to a25, unless this is not permitted with the feature freeze and all.

Edited by BreakfastBurrito_007
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4 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I feel it is a good opportunity for a fast change to a25, unless this is not permitted with the feature freeze and all.

I believe I can patch that, as long as someone supplies me with a model. Have the other balancing advisors agreed? This change will strengthen Seleucids a lot.

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The cavalry archer in A24 has the potential to be the most OP unit. If A25 only nerfs them by giving 2.5 spread they are still very good, as such a nerf would lower their DPS by 10-15%. Also Seleucids get a lot of other options, do they really need everything?

4 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

then I feel the time is right to give seleucids a spearcav unit.

For your information, Seleucids all ready do have two types of spear cavalry, a mercenary and a champion. Their champion does also benefit from a +20%HP upgrade. So the preferred solution probably is to make the mercenary and champion more usable.

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@LetswaveaBook

Keep in mind that Persians have access to all of this and then some (axe cav+ full economy resource trickle, full stable upgrades) + 20 pop (being removed in a25?)

Mercenaries will still be unusable in TGs in a25 as far as I can forsee. The problem with champion spearcav of Seleucids is that they are way weaker than persian champs, despite having exactly the same stats. Since there is no unit that travels with sele champ spearcav so any opponent rightly prioritizes them and they die very quickly. If seleucids don't get a citizen soldier melee cavalry then they will have worse cavalry overall than Iberians. I understand you guys being worried about how seles were one of the best non-archer inf civs in a24 and how adding something to seles while archers are getting nerfed will make them op.

Any more optimism about replacing javelin cav with spearcav?

This is still an odd combo for cavalry but I generally see two paths being taken for this setup: 1)archer cav for surrounding enemy armies and endless harassment. 2) melee only cavalry army spears +melee champs and/or mercs if they ever get that good.

25 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

For your information, Seleucids all ready do have two types of spear cavalry, a mercenary and a champion. Their champion does also benefit from a +20%HP upgrade. So the preferred solution probably is to make the mercenary and champion more usable.

I am not sure if English is your first language or not, but generally "For your information" is not the nicest way to make a counter-argument. To clarify, I was trying to say that the champions, as much as I like them, have a problem of being super exposed when fighting without CS soldiers to bulk the army so they are not a viable option. For a25, I think it would be a shame to relegate these units to merely raiding by not giving them a CS melee cavalry unit to produce alongside. This problem does not exist for many other mounted champions.

 

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9 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

what about deleting their mercenary cavalry or javelin cavalry and replace one of these with citizen spear cavalry?

I am not a big fan of deleting unpopular units and replacing them with more popular units. We should design the game such that each unit has its uses.

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2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@LetswaveaBook

Keep in mind that Persians have access to all of this and then some (axe cav+ full economy resource trickle, full stable upgrades) + 20 pop (being removed in a25?)

Mercenaries will still be unusable in TGs in a25 as far as I can forsee. The problem with champion spearcav of Seleucids is that they are way weaker than persian champs, despite having exactly the same stats. Since there is no unit that travels with sele champ spearcav so any opponent rightly prioritizes them and they die very quickly. If seleucids don't get a citizen soldier melee cavalry then they will have worse cavalry overall than Iberians. I understand you guys being worried about how seles were one of the best non-archer inf civs in a24 and how adding something to seles while archers are getting nerfed will make them op.

Any more optimism about replacing javelin cav with spearcav?

This is still an odd combo for cavalry but I generally see two paths being taken for this setup: 1)archer cav for surrounding enemy armies and endless harassment. 2) melee only cavalry army spears +melee champs and/or mercs if they ever get that good.

I am not sure if English is your first language or not, but generally "For your information" is not the nicest way to make a counter-argument. To clarify, I was trying to say that the champions, as much as I like them, have a problem of being super exposed when fighting without CS soldiers to bulk the army so they are not a viable option. For a25, I think it would be a shame to relegate these units to merely raiding by not giving them a CS melee cavalry unit to produce alongside. This problem does not exist for many other mounted champions.

 

Well persians are one if not the most bloated civ in the game. They have all the cavalry plus the 20% hp upgrade that the seleucids have and they have two train time upgrades for said cavalry, besides they have better than average rams , archers and elephants. So comparing persians with any other civ is tricky.

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2 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

suspect  spear cavalry won't be really usefull in A25, again so maybe you could give the poor seleucids sword cav?

I think spear cavalry has been boosted if my archer-counter patch went through, so they are not useless. Also, spear cav make lightwork of other cavalry. 

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13 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I think spear cavalry has been boosted if my archer-counter patch went through, so they are not useless. Also, spear cav make lightwork of other cavalry. 

Fair point but I didn't write them of as useless merely less usefull than sword cav by comparisson, and how can you not be sure that your patch went through? Was it the one that gave them +1 armor?

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Just now, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Fair point but I didn't write them of as useless merely less usefull than sword cav by comparisson, and how can you not be sure that your patch went through? Was it the one that gave them +1 armor?

Not sure if I agree that they are less useful than swords, as spear also do decent damage, especially to other cavalry. Swords can kill infantry more easily (by a bit) but experiments show that they are quite similar if you use the right formations for each. Remember spear cavalry has longer attack range so they can land hits without delay whereas swords have to turn and move onto the next unit after it kills one. This wastes a little bit of time especially if you are dealing with loads of archers. 

Spear cavalry can also be a good anti- elephant weapon. 

Seleucids also had the tradition of using lancers but less swords in cavalry units.

 

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9 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Not sure if I agree that they are less useful than swords, as spear also do decent damage, especially to other cavalry. Swords can kill infantry more easily (by a bit) but experiments show that they are quite similar if you use the right formations for each. Remember spear cavalry has longer attack range so they can land hits without delay whereas swords have to turn and move onto the next unit after it kills one. This wastes a little bit of time especially if you are dealing with loads of archers. 

Spear cavalry can also be a good anti- elephant weapon. 

Seleucids also had the tradition of using lancers but less swords in cavalry units.

 

Trust me , if i had my way CS spear cav would kill CS ranged troops in 3 hits or less and  CS sword inf in 4 or less. And one hit less when they reach rank 3 exp.

Edited by PyrrhicVictoryGuy
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  • 2 weeks later...

Let's see how the seleucids play out in A25. I can confirm that mercenaries cost loads of metal instead of food, and they train quite quickly. On the plus side, some upgrades cost stone instead of metal and I find myself in metal deficit less frequently. 

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