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@chrstgtr Their role is actually bad, they have become units useful only to kill siege.

Chrstgtr said that:

Right now players don't make sword because melee is generally used as a meatshield and no one wants to waste metal training units that never even make it to enemy lines. If swords are quicker then they would more quickly close the gap and engage in fighting where they could do real damage. 

 

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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As I had stated in that topic, swordsmen should have slightly higher pierce armour than their infantry counterparts and move a bit faster; at the moment they have the same movement speed as spearmen.  Essentially their role could be a bit of an all-rounder, making efficient trades against cavalry and spearmen, holding their own against pikemen in smaller numbers where the range of the pikes would not come into play, and having the potential to close the gap with ranged units and tank arrows.  The only units that should be true counters would be ranged cavalry; ranged infantry could potentially do the same, but as already mentioned, swordsmen pose a decent risk to them.  

If we are to contrast them to spearmen, spears would be a bit slower and perform much better against cavalry.

Pikemen would gain most of their advantages in tight formations where their superior range could allow them to beat the others.  Alone, however, they would be somewhat vulnerable comparatively speaking.

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27 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

As I had stated in that topic, 

sorry if I made you write again, but Wraitii wants this discussion here.

-------

I am going to ask that more members access this subforum.

 

 

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Sword units already perform well in close contact. The problem is that most sword units never make it to close contact to do damage and/or you run out of metal and consequently can't sustain a sword army. This can be fixed a couple of ways that I list below.

  1. Quicker movement speed: This is my preferred solution. It will make units get to enemy quicker. It will also make it so that other units (which are almost always quicker) can't simply run away once the swords reach them. This also helps avoid the annoying hit and run battles that are impossible to counter. I would start experimenting by making swords the same speed as javs (the quickest inf unit) or slightly quicker than jav. 
  2. Cheaper cost: This would help solve the difficulty of sustaining an army, but won't address how swords currently can't survive long enough to actually engage in close combat. Regardless, an incremental approach is best, so I prefer to first use option 1 and then see if additional changes are needed before we begin to implement changes that will have wide-ranging effects like this on eco/resource management. There are also other changes that should make metal more available in a25, which will render some of these concerns less relevant.
  3. Higher armor: This may have a ton of side effects that could accidently make this unit very OP. Swords already perform well against other units when in close contact, so they just need to be able to enter close range with enemy units before they die. Giving them extra armor will not only help them get to enemy units but will also help them once they are already there. I see no reason to do this when there isn't a problem with close range fighting and there is a perfectly fine option already available (i.e., quicker unit speed) that won't have the same unintended consequences. 
  4. Higher health: Same as the above. I don't think it is worth considering when there is a perfectly fine option already available. 
  5. Stronger attack: This doesn't address the fundamental cost/speed problems and thus is a very indirect way to deal with the problem. It will also introduce unintended consequences, like making rams very vulnerable, so I don't think this is worth considering when there is a perfectly fine option already available. 
Edited by chrstgtr
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15 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Sword units already perform well in close contact. The problem is that most sword units never make it to close contact to do damage and/or you run out of metal and consequently can't sustain a sword army. This can be fixed a couple of ways that I list below.

  1. Quicker movement speed: This is my preferred solution. It will make units get to enemy quicker. It will also make it so that other units (which are almost always quicker) can't simply run away once the swords reach them. This also helps avoid the annoying hit and run battles that are impossible to counter. 
  2. Cheaper cost: This would help solve the difficulty of sustaining an army, but won't address how swords currently can't survive long enough to actually engage in close combat. Regardless, an incremental approach is best, so I prefer to first use option 1 and then see if additional changes are needed before we begin to implement changes that will have wide-ranging effects like this on eco/resource management. There are also other changes that should make metal more available in a25, which will render some of these concerns less relevant.
  3. Higher armor: This may have a ton of side effects that could accidently make this unit very OP. Swords already perform well against other units when in close contact, so they just need to be able to enter close range with enemy units before they die. Giving them extra armor will not only help them get to enemy units but will also help them once they are already there. I see no reason to do this when there isn't a problem with close range fighting and there is a perfectly fine option already available (i.e., quicker unit speed) that won't have the same unintended consequences. 
  4. Higher health: Same as the above. I don't think it is worth considering when there is a perfectly fine option already available. 
  5. Stronger attack: This doesn't address the fundamental cost/speed problems and thus is a very indirect way to deal with the problem. It will also introduce unintended consequences, like making rams very vulnerable, so I don't think this is worth considering when there is a perfectly fine option already available. 

What if some changes are reflected with technologies?

For example point 3 and 5

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Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

What if some changes are reflected with technologies?

For example point 3 and 5

Good idea. What should we call it and what exact stats shall we use? For a start I think swords can have the armour and health of a spearman by default, then the tech boosts it by 20%

The tech itself costs 200 metal and 200 wood?

For speed, let swords be as fast as the current ranged units. (1.2x spearman, 10.8m/s)

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5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Only the Romans, Iberians , Seleucids and Ptolemies ( maybe Gauls)

I don't see what you mean. 

Train swords from cc: iber, rome

trains CS swords from barracks: kush, maur, rome, iber, sparta

trains merc swords: ptol, sele, carthage

only champion swords: gaul, brit, athen , mace

no infantry swords at all: pers 

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1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

Good idea. What should we call it and what exact stats shall we use? For a start I think swords can have the armour and health of a spearman by default, then the tech boosts it by 20%

The tech itself costs 200 metal and 200 wood?

To be clear, at this time, I would only recommend option 1--quicker unit speed.

 

A stronger attack tech for swords is already an option in the blacksmith. I think it makes sense to apply this to all sword civs (i.e. Sparta, and possible a few others, still needs it). It's very good, but also very rarely used right now because most players don't make a lot of swords and because techs in general are too expensive (this is already changed for a25). I doubt 4 techs for swords (e.g., general melee level 1, general melee level 2, sword attack tech level 1, and sword attack tech level 2) are necessary. Besides we want to make swords useful--not OP--and we are already judging swords' usefulness against civs that already have similar tech implemented, so I don't think it's necessary. 

I would be very cautious with increasing health/armor. Swords are already the best attack unit (when they actually get to fight), so I wouldn't want them to become both the best tank unit and the best attack unit. 

 

Basically, I would want to see how changing unit speed impacts balance and then introduce techs as appropriate. 

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Just now, Yekaterina said:

I don't see what you mean. 

Train swords from cc: iber, rome

trains CS swords from barracks: kush, maur, rome, iber, sparta

trains merc swords: ptol, sele, carthage

only champion swords: gaul, brit, athen , mace

no infantry swords at all: pers 

Not that not all factions have the same type of unit.

 

The ones you mention don't have heavy armor, heavy shield, and sword that you can trust to enemies.

 

I'm thinking of the tradition equivalent of archery for swords.

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1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

m thinking of the tradition equivalent of archery for swords.

Swordsman tradition? I think that could be a good idea. However, as chrstgtr said, we should be cautious with increasing unit armour and health now. I would just try changing their speed. Also, shall we increase the damage per hit or the rate of attack? 

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2 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Swordsman tradition? I think that could be a good idea. However, as chrstgtr said, we should be cautious with increasing unit armour and health now. I would just try changing their speed. Also, shall we increase the damage per hit or the rate of attack? 

Yes .

 

There is the problem that it is very OP.

They seem like good suggestions

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1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

Swordsman tradition? I think that could be a good idea. However, as chrstgtr said, we should be cautious with increasing unit armour and health now. I would just try changing their speed. Also, shall we increase the damage per hit or the rate of attack? 

I would keep the same for now.  Swords are already very strong when they actually get to fight. The problem is that they can't ever reach enemy units before dying. I do think it makes sense to introduce the sword tech to all civs with swords, though (i.e., Sparta has swords but doesn't have the tech, Gauls has sword champs but doesn't have the tech, ptol has swords, but doesn't have the tech, etc.). It is essentially a "sword tradition" tech that already exist but is called a different name. 

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8 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

As you wish. Already working on the patch :) 

Cool. If you actually want this to go anywhere, I would just layer it on top of Vali's mod, which has now been adopted for a25, or just wait until a25 is released. Otherwise, it will be comparing new swords against old units. 

 

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1 minute ago, chrstgtr said:

I would keep the same for now.  Swords are already very strong when they actually get to fight. The problem is that they can't ever reach enemy units before dying. I do think it makes sense to introduce the sword tech to all civs with swords, though (i.e., Sparta has swords but doesn't have the tech, Gauls has sword champs but doesn't have the tech, ptol has swords, but doesn't have the tech, etc.). It is essentially a "sword tradition" tech that already exist but is called a different name. 

That's why he talked about technologies, the arms race.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

 

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32 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I would keep the same for now.  Swords are already very strong when they actually get to fight. The problem is that they can't ever reach enemy units before dying. I do think it makes sense to introduce the sword tech to all civs with swords, though (i.e., Sparta has swords but doesn't have the tech, Gauls has sword champs but doesn't have the tech, ptol has swords, but doesn't have the tech, etc.). It is essentially a "sword tradition" tech that already exist but is called a different name. 

I think faster speeds for swords should be good enough. Remember for a24, the archer inf got a speed buff and accuracy buff, which combined to be mega-op. In a23 the archers were not as weak as they seemed; archers appeared super weak because most of the time, they were against slingers, which were a bit op in a24. It was true they needed a buff, but only something small, considering the slinger nerf. We need to proceed with care with swords, I would agree that the power of swords are being masked by their inability to reach combat in many situations.

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1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Here is Vali's mod, with faster swordsmen added. 

RotationTrainTimes.zip 8 kB · 0 downloads

I tried to test this with berhudar but I was unable to enable it. It looks like it is made for a25 instead of a24.

Edit: berhudar also was unable to download it from the forum. He got a permission error. 

974779471_ScreenShot2021-06-01at2_58_01PM.thumb.png.d38189a0cb31a7f11e8b5a1c30ab4724.png

Edited by chrstgtr
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