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what do we do with the defenses of phase 1?


Lion.Kanzen
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Part of the complaints is the abuse of turtling.

 

If someone wants to use it, they should invest in it.

Let him pay the cost.

 

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What do we do with the Sentry tower?

 

Should we block it? So you force yourself to research a technology to unlock it?

 

And the palisade? Should it be weaker?

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11 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What do we do with the Sentry tower?

 

Should we block it? So you force yourself to research a technology to unlock it?

 

And the palisade? Should it be weaker

Sentry towers and palisades should be valid option to turtle in P1 but should be very weak as soon as the enemy has phased up. Maybe a P2 tech like "fire arrows" would be nice, which is especially an anti palisade / sentry tower tech.

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There is currently no issue with this in the meta. Better not to change anything.

Anyway, sentry towers are already a target and a weak spot in p2, because they are quite easily conquered. Players usually rush to upgrade them as soon as they get to p2.

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2 minutes ago, alre said:

There is currently no issue with this in the meta. Better not to change anything.

Anyway, sentry towers are already a target and a weak spot in p2, because they are quite easily conquered. Players usually rush to upgrade them as soon as they get to p2.

how easy is it to rush in phase 1?

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4 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

how easy is it to rush in phase 1?

In 1v1s if your opponent focuses eco upgrades and on building barracks early and does not spend wood for citizen soldiers, that opens very realistically a possibility to rush with infantry.

I agree with @alre, sentry towers in P1 are not the main problem, except that they are build to fast for my liking. With most civilizations, a player needs to decide if they prefer 2 sentries or a barracks (assuming you have the stone to start with). I think the main problem is that they can be upgraded conveniently in p2. https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/25133 removes them being part of the phase up requirement. Also I think that sentries should not be able to fire arrows while the upgrade is in process.

Oh, there is an enemy? Let me upgrade the tower right under their noses!

Oh, there is an enemy and I have no tower? Let me quickly build a sentry with 40 seconds of build time and upgrade the tower right under their noses!

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I like the idea of making towers stop shooting while upgrading. Maybe if you hit them while upgrading, they could also stop or lose progress in the upgrade.

I think building time of sentry tower is balanced enough though. 

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I think it's interesting that they stop shooting arrows while they are upgrading but the hitting them and progress being stopped or lost is too much. Let's keep in mind that towers aren't very hard to destroy and rams and catapults aren't affected by them. In addition, the normal thing is precisely to go against the towers with rams, elephants or catapults so that people do not die, so the towers would practically lose all effectiveness, given that there are 5 technologies to investigate. And if they are in the game it is also to serve some purpose, otherwise it is silly to keep them. 

On the other hand, it is true that they can become too decisive in a 1 vs 1 in which the players are next to each other on the map. It is not the most common thing, but if this happens it can become decisive who starts to make defensive towers on the border. Not so much to prevent resources from being taken, even, as to have the border open so that no buildings can be constructed. Maybe I would reduce the attack distance range of towers in phase 1 or their ability to destroy foundations, because you practically have to leave  all the way to your main city for your oponent. 

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I think the main things making rushing challenging are the slower men training times, cc extra range, and unit rotation being a bit too slow. I don’t think nerfing sentry towers is a good idea, although making them less valuable for P3 means that they still have an opportunity cost. As for palisades, they are almost never built in p1 as wood goes to: houses, upgrades, men in normal games.

Many of these things are being addressed already and I think the overall effect will be fine without extra nerfs to defenses.

(Think being border next to rauls)

 

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As a basic principle, I think it would be good if basic defenses used in P1 looses efficiency as the game progresses.

In a23, increase in units HP when phasing up helped to fulfill this purpose. All units were buffed with the change in phases but towers weren't, so they be less effective at killing units.

On 11/05/2021 at 9:38 AM, maroder said:

Sentry towers and palisades should be valid option to turtle in P1 but should be very weak as soon as the enemy has phased up. Maybe a P2 tech like "fire arrows" would be nice, which is especially an anti palisade / sentry tower tech.

I agree. For palisades, the application of this principle I mentioned was, and still is missing. Palisades are often misused currently since they shouldn't be useful to block sieges but mostly be useful in early game. The idea of a tech available in p2/p3 to allow fast destruction of palisades seems good. A tech that could allow units to destroy extremely fast palisades in late game would work well, especially against palisades spam. So if someone used palisades in early game, he has to replace them by walls to have defenses in late game. Walls are barely used currently.

 

On 11/05/2021 at 9:56 AM, alre said:

Anyway, sentry towers are already a target and a weak spot in p2, because they are quite easily conquered. 

Some players build palisades around them to solve that problem.

 

19 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

In 1v1s if your opponent focuses eco upgrades and on building barracks early and does not spend wood for citizen soldiers, that opens very realistically a possibility to rush with infantry.

I agree with @alre, sentry towers in P1 are not the main problem, except that they are build to fast for my liking. With most civilizations, a player needs to decide if they prefer 2 sentries or a barracks (assuming you have the stone to start with). I think the main problem is that they can be upgraded conveniently in p2. https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/25133 removes them being part of the phase up requirement. Also I think that sentries should not be able to fire arrows while the upgrade is in process.

Oh, there is an enemy? Let me upgrade the tower right under their noses!

Oh, there is an enemy and I have no tower? Let me quickly build a sentry with 40 seconds of build time and upgrade the tower right under their noses!

In a24 (slower training time of units, no hp increase when phasing up), there is a very weak timing in multiplayers (smaller distance to the enemy) when you transition from P1 to P2. You spent a lot of resources and lose some training time from your cc to phase up so a player P1 is often stronger than a player that just reached P2. 

I have tried a few all-in with 4 to 6 barracks while P1 when the enemy reached P2, they seem currently quite strong. You start fighting with a population lead and usually, the enemy is unable to replace units dying fast enough even if he receives extra resources because he will lack production buildings. 

If on top of that you remove towers usage when they are upgraded, this weakness is even reinforced.

 

I might limit cc's additional arrows to 10 maximum instead of 20 but keep a garrison capacity of 20. This would not change much the cc's role in early game but it would reduce its defensive usage in late game.

Edited by faction02
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17 hours ago, smgzlez said:

I think it's interesting that they stop shooting arrows while they are upgrading but the hitting them and progress being stopped or lost is too much. Let's keep in mind that towers aren't very hard to destroy and rams and catapults aren't affected by them. In addition, the normal thing is precisely to go against the towers with rams, elephants or catapults so that people do not die, so the towers would practically lose all effectiveness, given that there are 5 technologies to investigate. And if they are in the game it is also to serve some purpose, otherwise it is silly to keep them. 

On the other hand, it is true that they can become too decisive in a 1 vs 1 in which the players are next to each other on the map. It is not the most common thing, but if this happens it can become decisive who starts to make defensive towers on the border. Not so much to prevent resources from being taken, even, as to have the border open so that no buildings can be constructed. Maybe I would reduce the attack distance range of towers in phase 1 or their ability to destroy foundations, because you practically have to leave  all the way to your main city for your oponent. 

Yes ! for 100 or 200 wood (1 or 2 tower rank 1 you can denied easy ennemy ressource and protect your front a lot of time). Like i said melee unit should do more dammage to tower rank 1.

Palisade is big cost in P1 so ok. they are not tanky. the problem is that the units attack them on their own when they have nothing to type. a lot of newbie players get tricked. If player is smart he can just kill a little small piece to cross.

---

Tower rank 2 is powerfull without tech, they send a lot of arrows and very good at defense.

 

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Right faction

tech or native : siege attacks in zone the palisade, useful to counter the spam palisade and does not nerf the palisades when they are not spam in the same place. Also flaming arrows looks good. Melee units should be able to use torches as well but this is too long a change to implement.

 


 
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5 minutes ago, faction02 said:

I agree. For palisades, the application of this principle I mentioned was, and still is missing. Palisades are often misused currently since they shouldn't be useful to block sieges but mostly be useful in early game. The idea of a tech available in p2/p3 to allow fast destruction of palisades seems good. A tech that could allow units to destroy extremely fast palisades in late game would work well, especially against palisades spam. So if someone used palisades in early game, he has to replace them by walls to have defenses in late game. Walls are barely used currently.

I have an idea: add a P3 tech in the siege workshop which gives rams/siege weapons hard counter against palisades. Or I can even add it by default. 

Units shouldn't be able to hack down palisades easily because palisades are still quite thick and strong compared to human arms. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I have an idea: add a P3 tech in the siege workshop which gives rams/siege weapons hard counter against palisades. Or I can even add it by default. 

Units shouldn't be able to hack down palisades easily because palisades are still quite thick and strong compared to human arms. 

Not sure that a tech for sieges could work well for palisades spam. Even if they one shot a palisades, they are slow to move and it would still takes a lot of time to destroy the palisades if they are in large number. I would prefer having units able to do that task to prevent palisades layers/spam.

 

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The main problem with palisades, is that at now their role overlaps that of walls almost exactly. I know it sounds bad, but a good solution would be to remove them completely, until we find a way to introduce more anti-personnel defensive options. This at once would make it disappear those weird palisade mazes that can be seen sometimes in multiplayer games, substituded by saner stone walls.

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38 minutes ago, Feldfeld said:

Just make it so that when one palisade is destroyed, all palisades within a radius are destroyed as well, there problem solve

That is very hard to program, but I will try. I think destroying individual palisade is better because you might want to break one piece to get through while using the others to your advantage, e.g trapping the enemy supply

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11 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I think destroying individual palisade is better because you might want to break one piece to get through while using the others to your advantage, e.g trapping the enemy supply

If he wants, the enemy can delete his own palisades at any time

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1 minute ago, Feldfeld said:

If he wants, the enemy can delete his own palisades at any time

You are right. But to be honest with the 5x 10x hard counter if feels almost like deleting palisades because they get take down in mere seconds if you have champion swordsmen or siege. 

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