[Brainstorming] Balancing Mercenary The primary suggestions comes from the cost. (Metal cost) - suggestion

[Lion.Kanzen]

we are listen to proposals ...

the dynamics with these posts will be as follows.

Methodology

Discuss alternatives.

Find common ground.

Submit these points prior to debate and surveys.

The solutions and the opinion of the staff will be taken into account

Patches will be made ...

Testing...

I reject or approve and then back to point 1.

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The main complaint comes from the cost. (Metal cost)

Edited May 11, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

related.

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I think the idea to make mercenaries cost more metal as well as become more powerful and lose resource gathering abilities was a great idea. The important part was to make mercenaries a more unique unit class. 

I think a variety of changes in different amounts could be applied to make mercenaries a fun addition to the game.

A mix of:

1. Pivoting cost a little away from metal, perhaps in exchange for a 20 decrease in metal cost the unit would have 40 more food 40 more wood or 30 more stone.
2. Making "expertise in war" go to rank 3(and maybe affect cost?) or maybe just cheaper upgrade (300 f, 100 m) to go to rank 2. Perhaps it could be a tradeoff of some kind.
3. Making some heroes that currently are awful have a merc bonus as a stopgap until they get historical bonuses. (be careful with Carthage -35% metal cost heroes.

A more complicated, but less problematic issue with a smaller total resource cost is that it makes mercenaries the cheapest option in a full trade eco game, because the gather rates of traders are the same for each resource. It is extremely rare for games to become full trade eco games anyway, so I think this is not really a problem. 

I think some mix of these changes could make mercenaries a great option for civs that were intended to have good mercenaries, like Ptolemies and Carthaginians.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

My opinion:

• Mercenaries should not need any training. They are hired, not trained, fully ready for campaign.
  • Effect: Mercenaries train instantly or very fast (5 seconds or less). 
• Part of a Mercenary's compensation is plunder, that sweet sweet loot they can send back to their families in Bumfuq Arcadia. 
  • Effect: The <Looter> component is disabled.
• Mercenaries are usually already experienced at war (or garrison duty at least).
  • Effect: Most mercenaries train at Advanced rank. Some (Balearic Slinger, for example) train at Elite rank, with additional cost.
• Mercenaries are paid a wage and buy their own provisions.
  • Effect: All mercs cost Metal and only Metal ("Coin" in Delenda Est was designed for this purpose). Cavalry mercs cost more.
• Hiring Mercenaries is expensive, and kings had to heavily tax their subjects in order to afford large numbers of mercenaries.
  • Effect: A new tech at the Market, "War Taxes", gives the player a trickle of Metal from every Citizen and Trader, but reduces their gather rates. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Ptolemies and Carthaginians are our main "mercenary" civs. To pay for their large number of mercenaries, I propose these solutions:

Carthaginians were consummate traders and merchants. This mercantile empire helped them hire vast numbers of expensive mercenaries.

• A significant trading bonus in metal, over land and sea (above and beyond their "regular" trading bonus).

Ptolemaic Egypt had a large surplus of food and would sell this surplus to international buyers (to Rome is a famous, but not the only, example).

• A significant bonus in bartering food to metal.
• A bonus in receiving metal tribute from allies.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I think it should be reversed and adjusted with technologies.

 

Excess resources can be compensated with a number of technologies, if that is the problem.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Does anyone know why this change was implemented? Anyone have the link to the patch?

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone At first I was upset reading some of this, but now I see it reflects some of the societal changes that people might associate with hiring a mercenary army. These changes could potentially be quite good added to the game. I could see varying levels of availability of these techs depending on how much of a "merc civ" the civilization is. 

Upon seeing this:

14 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Effect: A new tech at the Market, "War Taxes", gives the player a trickle of Metal from every Citizen and Trader, but reduces their gather rates. 

Could be a risky choice for civs that don't have a great selection of mercs (this is ok, risky gameplay is exciting)

Will be very hard to get adequately balanced as an overall tech and will need to be carefully tested and reviewed. Also, for these things to exist, we need to make the amount of metal available much more for all players as well as less variable.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Does anyone know why this change was implemented? Anyone have the link to the patch?

I don't know about the patch, but I am almost certain the reason for the change was to differentiate citizen soldiers from mercenaries.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I don't know about the patch, but I am almost certain the reason for the change was to differentiate citizen soldiers from mercenaries.

Well then it was a bad idea, they should have warned. Changes like these without consulting are very arbitrary.

 

I warned you many times how difficult the Phabricator was for the vast majority.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Lion.Kanzen

Do you see any value to the changes to mercenaries in a24 or should the whole idea be scrapped?

I quite like the prospect of having some middle tier unit available in different varieties in difference civs.

As for more outlandish (still great) ideas like from @wowgetoffyourcellphone, they are less likely to be accepted by the multiplayer community and I am not sure how I feel about them myself.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Do you see any value to the changes to mercenaries in a24 or should the whole idea be scrapped?

I quite like the prospect of having some middle tier unit available in different varieties in difference civs

When I decided to take it upon myself to help fix this, Stan said that we had to keep the fanbase, the multiplayer players, happy.

 

I need to hear from all of you. All the fans. So I took the time to invite people and bring their friends.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I show you guys the way. It's up to you guys to walk it. 

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

we had to keep the fanbase, the multiplayer players, happy.

Impossible!

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I show you guys the way. It's up to you guys to walk it. 

Impossible!

I know, we will try ...

.I lose nothing  asking them and negotiating with them.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I show you guys the way. It's up to you guys to walk it. 

 

I actually suggested that you be a counselor. You are very experienced.

 

But ... well it seems those guys have a very persuasive opinion.

[maroder]

I agree with most of @wowgetoffyourcellphone ideas, especially: instant training, advanced or elite rank and mostly metal cost.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 minute ago, maroder said:

I agree with most of @wowgetoffyourcellphone ideas, especially: instant training, advanced or elite rank and mostly metal cost.

I think they are great ideas as long as they are balanced well, and metal distribution becomes more equal.

You could call the tax increase upgrade "Opulence" or maybe "Big Government". Also I think this is a good example of improving historical accuracy and expanding gameplay depth and quality simultaneously.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, maroder said:

I agree with most of @wowgetoffyourcellphone ideas, especially: instant training, advanced or elite rank and mostly metal cost.

For something I thought of him as support for this project of the balance of A25 / A26.

 

I am just the referee in many areas.

 

Second, whoever makes the patches has the advantage of being heard.

 

One thing the development team wants is solutions

[maroder]

9 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Second, whoever makes the patches has the advantage of being heard.

 

One thing the development team wants is solutions

Yeah, but that's only one half of the coin. The other thing is agreement over the changes. And while I would love for example to have the two gendered citizens mod folded into the game, as well as farmlands, even if I make the patches, they probably won't be accepted because of lack of consensus.

And while I like the mercenary ideas all the people who tried to balance the mercenaries for a24 may (probably) not agree with them.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, maroder said:

Yeah, but that's only one half of the coin. The other thing is agreement over the changes. And while I would love for example to have the two gendered citizens mod folded into the game, as well as farmlands, even if I make the patches, they probably won't be accepted because of lack of consensus.

And while I like the mercenary ideas all the people who tried to balance the mercenaries for a24 may (probably) not agree with them.

I am a supporter of these ideas, and that creates a conflict of interest.

 

I have to listen to all opinions.

But who makes the patch, has more advantages to win.

[Yekaterina]

I personally would love a coin system, but:

1. I don't know how to program this

2. Makes learning curve even more difficult for new players

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

I personally would love a coin system, but:

1. I don't know how to program this

2. Makes learning curve even more difficult for new players

@wowgetoffyourcellphonehave this covered.

[Yekaterina]

Instant training is a very good idea. Carthage doesn't need that much mercenary to be honest. The mercenary heavy civs are Ptol, Mace, Sele

 

Only metal cost is realistic but makes them less accessible because in team games we are always short of metal

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

Only metal cost is realistic but makes them less accessible because in team games we are always short of metal

Right, that's why I came up with the "War Taxes" tech idea.  

[Yekaterina]

Perhaps we can reduce metal cost elsewhere to compensate for this. For example switching some upgrades to costing stone and wood only.

Cavalry health boost - wood+food

Siege attack upgrade - wood and stone