Unused Building Balancing Ideas

[Edwarf]

Hello,

There is many building almost never used because they are not enough useful, it is a bit sad because the art work behind is great.
I wish we could find a way to balance them a bit more in order to see them more.
Most of them are unique building, they can participate on the civilizations differentiations.

Unused building balancing ideas:

Theatron :
Current one :

• Bonuses: 
  • Structures +20% territory influence raduis
• Cost: 200 Wood + 600 Stone + 200 Metal

On going patch : D3602 / D3563

New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
1 - Ressources trickle
    -> 1 metal / sec
    Justification : Cultural wealth.

2 - Faster training time
    -> reduce the prodution time of organic unit.
    Justification : Contribute to the well being of the population / meeting place.

Balancing proposals :
Proposal 1 :

• Bonuses:
  • Ressources trickle : 1 metal/sec
  • Faster training time : -10% training time
  • Territory increased : +50%
• Cost : 600 Stone

Proposal 2 : ...

 

Edict Pilar of Ashoka:

Current one :

• Bonuses:
  • Traders +20% speed. Range : 75 meters
• Cost: 100 Stone + 100 Metal
• Condition: Ashoka the Great is alive

On going patch : /

New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
1 - No condition required :
    -> Don't need to train Ashoka the Great
    Justification : Unify with other civilizations

2 - Building placement :
    -> Neutral territory
    -> Ally territory
    Justification : Trade routes is very often with allies.

3 - Team speed bonus :
    -> The trader speed bonus works also for allies.
    Justification : Trade routes is very often with allies.

Balancing proposals :
Proposal 1 :

• Bonuses:
  • Own and ally traders +20% speed. Range : 75 meters
  • Buildable on own, neutral and ally territory.
  • No condition required
• Cost : 100 Stone

Proposal 2 :

• Bonuses:
  • Own and ally traders +20% speed. Range : 75 meters
  • Buildable on own, neutral and ally territory.
  • Condition: Ashoka the Great is alive
• Cost : 75 Stone

Proposal 3 : ...

 

Cothon (Naval Shipyard):

Current one :

• Bonuses: 
  • Garrisoned ships +10 health regeneration rate
• Cost: 300 Wood + 200 Stone 

On going patch : /

New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
1 - Faster training time
    -> Ships are built faster (training time reduce by 80%)
    Justification : This building is a ship factory.
    
Balancing proposals :
Proposal 1 :

• Bonuses:
  • Garrisoned ships +40 health regeneration rate. (still slower than 5 units repairing)
  • Ships are built 80% faster
• Cost : 300 Stone

Proposal 2 : ...

 

Lighthouse:

Current one :

• Bonuses: 
  • Very Large vision range
• Cost: 200 Stone + 200 Metal

On going patch : /

New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
1 - Faster ships movement speed
    -> Ships moves +20% faster inside the vision range, allies included
    Justification : Lighthouses mark dangerous coastlines, hazardous shoals, reefs, rocks, and safe entries to harbors
    
Balancing proposals :
Proposal 1 :

• Bonuses:
  • Ships movement speed +20%
  • Very Large vision range (current one)
• Cost : 250 Stone

Proposal 2 : ...

 

 

Wonders:

Current one :

• Bonuses: 
  • Glorious Expansion : +20% maximum population limit (requires the "Glorious Expansion" technology)
  • Ressources Trickle : 1 Food/s + 1 Wood/s + 1 Stone/s + 1 Metal/s
• Cost: 1000 Wood + 1500 Stone + 1000 Metal

On going patch : /

New bonuses/mechanic ideas :

1 - Reduce all unit cost
    -> All unit are +20% cheaper to train
    Justification : /

2 - Reduce all building cost
    -> All building are +20% cheaper to build
    Justification : /

Balancing proposals :
Proposal 1 : ...
    

 

[LetswaveaBook]

I like the idea that you come with suggestions as the buildings really help to make civilization unique. I have to would like to see the change for the Cothon. The pillar of akhoska seems fairly situational anyway

For the Lighthouse I think it is enough to give them speed only for merchant and fishing ships. For military ships it might be to much.

For the Theatron my suggestion is: Reduce stone cost to 200, make them available in p2 and give them territory root.

I once opened a tread on the apartment building and trying out the polling system. However that suggestion was disliked without giving any explanation in the comment of the dislikes.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

17 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I once opened a tread on the apartment building and trying out the polling system. However that suggestion was disliked without giving any explanation in the comment of the dislikes.

Carthaginian apartments should be a house 'Upgrade', like the Defense Tower upgrading feature. Instead of being a separate structure.

Edited April 24, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

25 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Carthaginian apartments should be a house 'Upgrade', like the Defense Tower upgrading feature. Instead of being a separate structure.

this. I strongly agree.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

this. I strongly agree.

 

I think that's why they were made to have the exact same foorprints as the level 1 houses, so they could be upgraded to the apartment.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think that's why they were made to have the exact same foorprints as the level 1 houses, so they could be upgraded to the apartment.

A long time ago I considered a mechanic where in case of not having that space (footprints) Don't let you upgrade the building.

I don't know if that affects the performance of the simulation.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

A long time ago I considered a mechanic where in case of not having that space (footprints) Don't let you upgrade the building.

 

That's already in-game I believe.

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That's already in-game I believe.

Really, to make an upgrade?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Really, to make an upgrade?

Well, with the Scythian resource wagon, it will not upgrade to a house or storehouse if there is an obstruction.  

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Well, with the Scythian resource wagon, it will not upgrade to a house or storehouse if there is an obstruction.  

The Mayans for example require a gameplay where their temples change to larger sizes.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The Mayans for example require a gameplay where their temples change to larger sizes.

Can test with the Zapotecs. Have a Temple turn into a Wonder or something and try it with a stone mine too close and with it not too close.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Can test with the Zapotecs. Have a Temple turn into a Wonder or something and try it with a stone mine too close and with it not too close.

Yes.

I'm going to show you the difference, for example Rosalila is inside another temple.

[Lopess]

19 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Can test with the Zapotecs. Have a Temple turn into a Wonder or something and try it with a stone mine too close and with it not too close.

I think that maybe a platform altar for a pyramid temple would fit better.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, Lopess said:

I think that maybe a platform altar for a pyramid temple would fit better.

I mean to test and see if an obstruction will prevent the upgrade.

[Lion.Kanzen]

33 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I mean to test and see if an obstruction will prevent the upgrade.

@Lopess you are the xml modder.

We have a test to do.

[Stan`]

It won't.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

18 minutes ago, Stan` said:

It won't.

Hmm, then I wonder what the difference is with the Scythian (Xiongnu in MAD) wagons?

[Stan`]

Moving maybe? Not sure.

[chrstgtr]

The lighthouse and the wonder changes were two bad changes from last alpha.

 

Lighthouses went from being a critical building to being a virtually useless one. I honestly don't think making ships 20% fast will make it much more useful (and certainly not enough to ever make me want to build one). It also doesn't make sense why it is limited to just one construction but that is a different topic. Anyways, a revision to the old function of the lighthouse (or at least something much, much closer to it than its current vision range) would be useful.

 

Wonders are still useful. The problem is that they cost way, way too much to much and take way, way too long to build. The cost is troublesome in this alpha because metal is so scarce with how expensive techs are (this will be improved in the next alpha, so I am not worried about that part). The build time is troublesome because (1) it just takes a long to build, so any benefits are delayed and (2) a lot of units will be off eco for awhile, so you won't be able to immediately research the tech. Even after building the wonder you still have to pay for a very, very expensive tech that takes a very, very long time to research. All this means is that you have you have a couple minutes of resources gathered just to build it, spend a couple minutes building it, spend a couple more minutes of resources to research the tech, then spend a couple more minutes actually researching the tech, then after the tech resource is completed you have to spending several minutes of resources and training (maybe also build) time to actually get the extra pop. In other words, wonders are just too time intensive and in most games you'll lost before you ever get the chance to actually use the benefits of all your res and time.

I don't think making units/building cheaper would be helpful because if you can afford to build a wonder/research the tech then resources obviously aren't an issue for you. Similarly, making building times quicker doesn't make sense because you will have already made all your buildings by the late-stage of the game when wonders are built, so it provides little to no benefit. 

Before at least you could get an immediate +10 pop bonus, which still wasn't very good to be honest. 

I would take away the tech research time and provide that benefit immediately upon the wonder being built, make the wonder correspondingly more expensive (so 2K food, 3K wood, 500 stone/metal more expensive), and add whatever fun extra techs you want from that point on (i.e. maybe a super will to fight of an extra 15% or a super super defensive, which gives your units 15% more armour). 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Roman siege wall, Roman Siege Fortress and Outpost , were a disaster.

[chrstgtr]

15 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Outpost

This is one of my most disliked changes. Vision tech needs to be restored. Otherwise, it is not worth bothering with. 

[Stan`]

Are there any patch for those?

[faction02]

9 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Roman siege wall, Roman Siege Fortress and Outpost , were a disaster.

Roman siege walls were more useful when the army camp could make sieges and catapults wouldn't die to archers.  

 

10 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Wonders are still useful. The problem is that they cost way, way too much to much and take way, way too long to build. The cost is troublesome in this alpha because metal is so scarce with how expensive techs are (this will be improved in the next alpha, so I am not worried about that part). The build time is troublesome because (1) it just takes a long to build, so any benefits are delayed and (2) a lot of units will be off eco for awhile, so you won't be able to immediately research the tech. Even after building the wonder you still have to pay for a very, very expensive tech that takes a very, very long time to research. All this means is that you have you have a couple minutes of resources gathered just to build it, spend a couple minutes building it, spend a couple more minutes of resources to research the tech, then spend a couple more minutes actually researching the tech, then after the tech resource is completed you have to spending several minutes of resources and training (maybe also build) time to actually get the extra pop. In other words, wonders are just too time intensive and in most games you'll lost before you ever get the chance to actually use the benefits of all your res and time.

I don't think making units/building cheaper would be helpful because if you can afford to build a wonder/research the tech then resources obviously aren't an issue for you. Similarly, making building times quicker doesn't make sense because you will have already made all your buildings by the late-stage of the game when wonders are built, so it provides little to no benefit. 

Before at least you could get an immediate +10 pop bonus, which still wasn't very good to be honest.  

I am not sure I would like to see wonders being frequently used in general. Once a player manage to get his wonder, the game is often over if he has time to use it. But I would agree that changing the repartition of the cost between how much is spent on the building and how much is spent on the tech makes sense. Civilization that have advantage on technology cost or research time might benefits a bit too much of their bonus there.

[Dakara]

Hello,

I'm totaly agree with Edwarf. We need give more interest to all useless building. 

WONDER :First delete the tech for bonus population and replace with a bonus linked to civilization once the wonder is built. A bonus military. 

Tech proposed by Edwarf sound good too. For a medium cost like 400 FOOD 200 METAL for the tech "Reduce all unit cost", look absoluty neccessary for spam champ and 400 FOOD 200STONE for tech "Reduce all building cost".

We can by this way give a strength to civilisation by this way. 

Below the bonus by civ: TO ADAPT 

Athens : Spear Infantery +25% HP / +1 Range Attack 

Brits : Slingers +2 armor pierce + 8% speed attack

Carthage : Mercenaries  damage +20% et 10 HP / Spear +1 pierce armor 

Gauls : Looting unit +100% and Cav +15% attack speed

Iberians : Skimish +2 armor pierce +1 orther armor and Infantery +5 HP

Kushite : Monk +30 HP +2 Heal, Infantery +5% move speed

Macedonians : Cav Melee +20 HP / Siege Weapons +20% HP +1 Hack Armor / Crossbow +10 Range attack +5 move speed.

Mauryas : Elefant training time -50% / Elefant +3 % HP 

Persians : Immortal +20 HP + 20% Damage +10% move speed / Les unités infantery melee rang 3 deviennent des Immortal

Ptol : Piques +1 hack damage +1 range attack +1 move speed

Rome : Sword infantery +50% damage / Heroes +500HP

Spartans : Melee Units +10% Move Speed + 10% Speed attack +15% move speed / Ram +20% HP

Seleucids :  Cav +10% Move speed +10 HP +2 Attack range

it also good if ennemy can know you have WONDER. They take fear.  If you agree how to implement this? The list of players in a card dashboard that has a wonder? in the diplomacy menu a wonder icon?

[maroder]

Just to bring the old thread up again, because it is related: